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100th  Congress  —  1st  Session        •        January  6-December  22,  1987 


Senate  Report 

No.  216 


IRAN-CONTRA  INVESTIGATION 

APPENDIX  B,  VOLUME  20 
DEPOSITIONS 


United  States  Congressional  Serial  Set 

Serial  Number  13761 


United  States  Government  Printing  Office 
Washington  :  1989 


Union  Calendar  No.  277 
100th  Congress,  1st  Session 
S.  Rept.  No.  100-216  H.  Rept.  No.  100-433 


Report  of  the   Congressional   Committees   Investigating   the 

Iran-Contra  Affair 

Appendix  B:  Volume  20 
Depositions 


Daniel  K.  Inouye,  Chairman, 
Senate  Select  Committee 

Lee  H.  Hamilton,  Chairman, 
House  Select  Committee 


U.S.  Senate  Select  Committee  U.S.  House  of  Representatives 

On  Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran  Select  Committee  to  Investigate 

And  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition  Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran 

November  13,  1987.  -  Committed  to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  House 

on  the  State  of  the  Union  and  ordered  to  be  printed. 

November  17,  1987.— Ordered  to  be  printed. 


Washington  :  1988 


i 


I 


Bnited  Starts  Senate 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON  SECRET  MILITARY 

ASSISTANCE  TO  IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 

WASHINGTON,  DC  20510-6480 


March    1,    1988 

Honorable  John  C.  Stennis 
President  pro  tempore 
United  States  Senate 
Washington,  D.C. 

Dear  Mr.  President: 

We  have  the  pleasure  to  transmit  herewith,  pursuant  to 
Senate  Resolution  23,  Appendix  B  to  the  final  Report  of  the 
Senate  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran 
and  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition.   We  will  submit  such  other  volumes 
of  Appendices  to  the  Report  as  are  authorized  and  as  they  become 
available. 


Sincerely, 


Warren  B.  Rudman    V^ 
Vice  Chairman 


III 


U.S.  HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  TO  INVESTIGATE 

COVEHT  ARMS  TRANSACTIONS  WITH  IRAN 

UNITED  STATES  CAPITOL 

WASHINGTON,  DC  20S1S 

(202)  22$-7902 

March   1,    1988 


The  Honorable  Jim  Wright 
Speaker  of  the  House 
U.  S.  Capitol 
Washington,  D.  C.  20515 

Dear  Mr.  Speaker: 

Pursuant  to  the  provisions  of  House  Resolutions  12  and 
330  and  House  Concurrent  Resolution  195,  100th  Congress,  1st 
Session,  I  transmit  herewith  Appendix  B  to  the  Report  of  the 
Congressional  Committees  Investigating  the  Iran-Contra  Affair, 
House  Report  No.  100-433,  100th  Congress,  1st  Session. 

Appendix  B  consists  of  the  depositions  taken  by  the 
Select  Committees  during  the  investigation.  The  contents  of 
Appendix  B  have  been  declassified  fajr^elease  to  the  public. 


Lee  H.  Hamilton 
Chairman 


United  States  Senate 

Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance 
To  Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition 

Daniel  K.  Inouye,  Hawaii,  Chairman 
Warren  Rudman,  New  Hampshire,  Vice  Chairman 

George  J.  Mitchell,  Maine 

Sam  Nunn,  Georgia 
Paul  S.  Sarbanes,  Maryland 
Howell  T.  Heflin,  Alabama 
David  L.  Boren,  Oklahoma 

James  A.  McClure,  Idaho 

Orrin  G.  Hatch,  Utah 

William  S.  Cohen,  Maine 

Paul  S.  Trible,  Jr.,  Virginia 


Arthur  L.  Liman 
Chief  Counsel 

Mark  A.  Belnick  Paul  Barbadoro 

Executive  Assistant  Deputy  Chief  Counsel 

To  the  Chief  Counsel 

Mary  Jane  Checchi 
Executive  Director 

Lance  I.  Morgan 
Press  Officer 


VI 


United  States  House  of  Representatives 

Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms 
Transactions  with  Iran 

Lee  H.  Hamilton,  Indiana,  Chairman 
Dante  B.  Fascell,  Florida,  Vice  Chairman 

Thomas  S.  Foley,  Washington 

Peter  W.  Rodino,  Jr.,  New  Jersey 

Jack  Brooks,  Texas 

Louis  Stokes,  Ohio 

Les  Aspin,  Wisconsin 

Edward  P.  Boland,  Massachusetts 

Ed  Jenkins,  Georgia 

Dick  Cheney,  Wyoming,  Ranking  Republican 

Wm.  S.  Broomfield,  Michigan 

Henry  J.  Hyde,  Illinois 

Jim  Courter,  New  Jersey 

Bill  McCollum,  Florida 

Michael  DeWine,  Ohio 


John  W.  Nields,  Jr. 
Chief  Counsel 

W.  Neil  Eggleston 
Deputy  Chief  Counsel 

Kevin  C.  Miller 
Staff  Director 


Thomas  R.  Smeeton 
Minority  Staff  Director 

George  W.  Van  Cleve 
Chief  Minority  Counsel 

Richard  J.  Leon 
Deputy  Chief  Minority  Counsel 


VII 


United  States  Senate 


Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance  to 
Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition 


Arthur  L.  Liman 
Chief  Counsel 
Mark  A.  Belnick  Paul  Barbadoro 

Executive  Assistant  Deputy  Chief  Counsel 

to  the  Chief  Counsel 

Mary  Jane  Checchi 
Executive  Director 

Lance  I.  Morgan 
Press  Officer 

Associate  Counsels 


C.  H.  Albright,  Jr. 
Daniel  Finn 
C.  H.  Holmes 
James  E.  Kaplan 
Charles  M.  Kerr 
Joel  P.  Lisker 


W.  T.  McGough,  Jr. 
Richard  D.  Parry 
John  D.  Saxon 
Terry  A.  Smiljanich 
Timothy  C.  Woodcock 


Committee  Staff 


Assistant  Counsels 


Legal  Counsel 
Intelligence/Foreign 

Policy  Analysts 
Investigators 


Press  Assistant 
General  Accounting 
Office  Detailees 


Security  Officer 
Security  Assistants 


Chief  Clerk 
Deputy  Chief  Clerk 


Steven  D.  Arkin* 
Isabel  K.  McGinty 
John  R.  Monsky 
Victoria  F.  Nourse 
Philip  Bobbitt 
Rand  H.  Fishbein 
Thomas  Polgar 
Lawrence  R. 

Embrey,  Sr. 
David  E.  Faulkner 
Henry  J.  Flynn 
Samuel  Hirsch 
John  J.  Cronin 
Olga  E.  Johnson 
John  C.  Martin 
Melinda  Suddes* 
Robert  Wagner 
Louis  H.  Zanardi 
Benjamin  C. 

Marshall 
Georgiana 

Badovinac 
David  Carty 
Kim  Lasater 
Scott  R.  Thompson 
Judith  M.  Keating* 
Scott  R.  Ferguson 


Staff  Assistants 


Administrative  Staff 


Secretaries 


Receptionist 
Computer  Center 
Detailee 


John  K.  Appleby 
Ruth  Balin 
Robert  E.  Esler 
Ken  Foster* 
Martin  H.  Garvey 
Rachel  D.  Kaganoff* 
Craig  L.  Keller 
Hawley  K. 

Manwarring 
Stephen  G.  Miller 
Jennie  L.  Pickford* 
Michael  A.  Ray  nor 
Joseph  D. 

Smallwood* 
Kristin  K.  Trenholm 
Thomas  E.  Tremble 
Bruce  Vaughn 
Laura  J.  Ison 
Hilary  Phillips 
Winifred  A.  Williams* 
Nancy  S.   Durflinger 
Shari  D.  Jenifer 
Kathryn  A.  Momot 
Cindy  Pearson 
Debra  S.  Sheffield* 
Ramona  H.  Green 
Preston  Sweet 


VIII 


Committee  Members'  Designated  Liaison 


Senator  Inouye 
Senator  Rudman 

Senator  Mitchell 

Senator  Nunn 

Senator  Sarbanes 
Senator  Heflin 


Peter  Simons 
William  V.  Cowan 
Thomas  C.  Polgar 
Richard  H. 
Arenberg 
Eleanore  Hill 
Jeffrey  H.  Smith 
Frederick  Millhiser 
Thomas  J.  Young 


Senator  Boren 

Senator  McClure 
Senator  Hatch 

Senator  Cohen 

Senator  Trible 


Sven  Holmes 
Blythe  Thomas 
Jack  Gerard 
Dee  V.  Benson 
James  G.  Phillips 
James  Dykstra 
L.  Britt  Snider 
Richard  Cullen 


Part  Time* 


Assistant  Counsel 
Hearings  Coordinator 
Staff  Assistants 


Interns 


Peter  V.  Letsou 
Joan  M.  Ansheles 
Edward  P. 

Flaherty,  Jr. 
Barbara  H.  Hummell 
David  G.  Wiencek 
Nona  Balaban 
Edward  E. 

Eldridge,  III 
Elizabeth  J.  Glennie 
Stephen  A.  Higginson 
Laura  T.  Kunian 
Julia  F.  Kogan 
Catherine  L.  Udell 


Document  Analyst 

Historian 

Volunteers 


Lyndal  L.  Shaneyfelt 
Edward  L.  Keenan 
Lewis  Liman 
Catherine  Roe 
Susan  Walsh 


♦The  staff  member  was  not  with  the  Select  Committee  when  the  Report  was  filed  but  had,  during 
the  life  of  the  Committee,  provided  services. 


IX 


United  States  House  of  Representatives 


Select  Committee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran 


Majority  Staff 


Special  Deputy 

Chief  Counsel 
Staff  Counsels 


Press  Liaison 
Chief  Clerk 
Assistant  Clerk 
Research  Director 
Research  Assistants 


John  W.  Nields,  Jr. 
Chief  Counsel 

W.  Neil  Eggleston 
Deputy  Chief  Counsel 

Kevin  C.  Miller 
Staff  Director 


Charles  Tiefer 

Kenneth  M.  Ballen 
Patrick  J.  Carome 
V.  Thomas 

Fryman,  Jr. 
Pamela  J. 

Naughton 
Joseph  P.  Saba 
Robert  J.  Havel 
Ellen  P.  Rayner 
Debra  M.  Cabral 
Louis  Fisher 
Christine  C. 

Birmann 
Julius  M. 

Genachowski 
Ruth  D.  Harvey 
James  E.  Rosenthal 


Systems 

Administrator 
Systems 

Programmer/ 

Analysts 
Executive  Assistant 
Staff  Assistants 


Catherine  L. 

Zimmer 
Charles  G.  Ratcliff 
Stephen  M. 

Rosenthal 
Elizabeth  S.  Wright 
Bonnie  J.  Brown 
Christina  Kalbouss 
Sandra  L.  Koehler 
Jan  L.  Suter 
Katherine  E.  Urban 
Kristine  Willie 
Mary  K.  Yount 


Minority  Staff 


Associate  Minority 

Counsel 
Assistant  Minority 

Counsel 
Minority  Research 

Director 


Thomas  R.  Smeeton 
Minority  Staff  Director 

George  W.  Van  Cleve 
Chief  Minority  Counsel 

Richard  J.  Leon 
Deputy  Chief  Minority  Counsel 


Robert  W. 
Genzman 
Kenneth  R.  Buck 

Bruce  E.  Fein 


Minority  Staff 
Editor/Writer 

Minority  Executive 
Assistant 

Minority  Staff 
Assistant 


Michael  J.  Malbin 

Molly  W.  Tully 

Margaret  A. 
Dillenburg 


Committee  Staff 


Investigators 


Director  of  Security 


Robert  A. 

Bermingham 
James  J.  Black 
Thomas  N. 

Ciehanski 
William  A.  Davis, 

m 

Clark  B.  Hall 
Allan  E.  Hobron 
Roger  L.  Kreuzer 
Donald  Remstein 
Jack  W.  Taylor 
Timothy  E.  Traylor 
Bobby  E.  Pope 


Security  Officers 


Editor 

Deputy  Editor 
Associate  Editor 
Production  Editor 
Hearing  Editors 

Printing  Clerk 


Rafael  Luna,  Jr. 
Theresa  M.  Martin 
Milagros  Martinez 
Clayton  C.  Miller 
Angel  R.  Torres 
Joseph  Foote 
Lisa  L.  Berger 
Nina  Graybill 
Mary  J.  Scroggins 
David  L.  White 
Stephen  G.  Regan 
G.  R.  Beckett 


Associate  Staff 


Representative 
Hamilton 

Representative 
Fascell 

Representative 

Foley 
Representative 

Rodino 

Representative 

Brooks 
Representative 

Stokes 
Representative 

Aspin 


Michael  H. 

Van  Dusen 
Christopher  Kojm 
R.  Spencer  Oliver 
Bert  D.  Hammond 
Victor  Zangla 
Heather  S.  Foley 
Werner  W.  Brandt 
M.  Elaine  Mielke 
James  J. 

Schweitzer 
William  M.  Jones 

Michael  J.  O'Neil 
Richard  M.  Giza 
Richard  E.  Clark 
Warren  L.  Nelson 


Representative 

Boland 
Representative 

Jenkins 
Representative 

Broomfield 
Representative 

Hyde 
Representative 

Courier 
Representative 

McCollum 
Representative 

DeWine 
General  Counsel  to 

the  Clerk 


Michael  W.  Sheehy 

Robert  H.  Brink 

Steven  K.  Berry 
David  S.  Addington 
Diane  S.  Doman 

Dennis  E.  Teti 

Tina  L.  Westby 

Nicholas  P.  Wise 

Steven  R.  Ross 


XI 


Contents 

Volume  20 


Preface XXI 

Motley,  Langhome  A 1 

Mulligan,  David  P 42 

Nagy,  Alex  G   171 

Napier,  Shirley  A  218 

Newington,  Barbara 359 

North,  Oliver  L 471 

O'Boyle,  William  B 491 

Osborne,  Duncan 615 

Owen,  Robert  W 628 

Pena,  Richard 883 

Pickering,  Thomas 950 

Poindexter,  John  M 997 


XIII 


Depositions 


Volume  1 


Airline  Proprietary  Project  Officer. 
Alvarez,  Francisco  J. 
Allen,  Charles. 
Arcos,  Cresencio. 


Volume  2 


Volume  3 


Armitage,  Richard. 
Artiano,  Martin  L. 
Associate  DDO  (CIA). 
Baker,  James  A.,  III. 
Barbules,  Lt.  Gen.  Peter. 
Bamett,  Ana. 
Bartlett,  Linda  June. 
Bastian,  James  H. 
Brady,  Nicholas  F. 
Brown,  Arthur  E.,  Jr. 


Byrne,  Phyllis  M. 
Calero,  Adolfo. 
Castillo,  Tomas  ("W"). 
Cave,  George  W. 
C/CATF. 


Volume  4 

Channell,  Cari  R. 

Chapman,  John  R.  (With  Billy  Ray  Reyer). 

Chatham,  Benjamin  P. 

CIA  Air  Branch  Chief. 

CIA  Air  Branch  Deputy  Chief. 

CIA  Air  Branch  Subordinate. 

CIA  Chief. 

CIA  Communicator. 

CIA  Identity  "A". 


XV 


Volume  5 

CIA  Officer. 

Clagett,  C.  Thomas,  Jr. 

Clark,  Alfred  (With  Gregory  Zink). 

Clarke,  George. 

Clarridge,  Dewey  R. 

Cline,  Ray  S. 

C/NE. 

Cohen,  Harold  G. 

Volume  6 

Collier,  George  E. 

Cole,  Gary. 

Communications  Officer  Headquarters,  CIA. 

Conrad,  Daniel  L. 


Volume  7 


Cooper,  Charles  J. 
Coors,  Joseph. 
Corbin,  Joan. 
Corr,  Edwin  G. 
Coward,  John  C. 
Coy,  Craig  R 
Crawford,  Iain  T.R. 


Crawford,  Susan. 
Crowe,  Adm.  William  J. 
Currier,  Kevin  W. 
DCM,  Country  15. 
DEA  Agent  1. 
DEA  Agent  2. 
DEA  Agent  3. 
deGraffenreid,  Kenneth, 
de  la  Torre,  Hugo. 
Deputy  Chief  "DC. 


Duemling,  Robert  W. 
DIA  Major. 
Dietel,  J.  Edwin. 
Dowling,  Father  Thomas. 
Dutton,  Robert  C. 
Earl,  Robert. 


Volume  8 


Volume  9 


XVI 


Volume  10 


Farber,  Jacob. 
Feldman,  Jeffrey. 
Fischer,  David  C. 
Floor,  Emanuel  A. 
Former  CIA  Officer. 
Fraser,  Donald. 
Fraser,  Edie. 
Fuller,  Craig  L. 


Volume  11 


Furmark,  Roy. 

Gadd,  Richard. 

Gaffney,  Henry. 

Gaffney,  Henry  (With  Glenn  A. 

Galvin,  Gen.  John  R. 

Gantt,  Florence. 

Garwood,  Ellen  Clayton. 

Gast,  Lt.  Gen.  Philip  C. 

Gates,  Robert  M. 

Glanz,  Anne. 


Rudd). 


Volume  12 


George,  Clair. 
Godard,  Ronald  D. 
Godson,  Roy  S. 
Golden,  William. 
Gomez,  Francis  D. 
Goodman,  Adam. 
Gorman,  Paul  F. 
Graham,  Daniel  O. 
Gregg,  Donald  P. 
Gregorie,  Richard  D. 
Guillen,  Adriana. 


Hakim,  Albert. 


Hall,  Wilma. 
Hasenfus,  Eugene. 
Hirtle,  Jonathan  J. 
Hooper,  Bruce. 


Volume  13 


Volume  14 


XVII 


Hunt,  Nelson  Bunker. 
Ikle,  Fred  C. 
Jensen,  D.  Lowell. 
Juchniewicz,  Edward  S. 
Kagan,  Robert  W. 
Keel,  Alton  G. 
Kellner,  Leon  B. 
Kelly,  John  H. 
Kiszynski,  George. 


Koch,  Noel  C. 
Kuykendall,  Dan  H. 
Langton,  William  G. 
Lawn,  John  C. 
Leachman,  Chris  J.,  Jr. 
Ledeen,  Michael  A. 


Lei  want,  David  O. 
Lilac,  Robert  H. 
Lincoln,  Col.  James  B. 
Littledale,  Krishna  S. 
McDonald,  John  William. 
McFarlane,  Robert  C. 
McKay,  Lt.  Col.  John  C. 
McLaughlin,  Jane  E. 


McMahon,  John  N. 
McMahon,  Stephen. 
McNeil,  Frank. 
Makowka,  Bernard. 
Marostica,  Don. 
Marsh,  John. 
Mason,  Robert  H. 


Meese,  Edwin  IE. 
Melton,  Richard  H. 
Merchant,  Brian  T. 
Meo,  Philip  H. 
Miller,  Arthur  J. 
Miller,  Henry  S. 
Miller,  Johnathan. 


Volume  15 


Volume  16 


Volume  17 


Volume  18 


XVIII 


Miller,  Richard  R. 


Motley,  Langhorne  A. 
Mulligan,  David  R 
Nagy,  Alex  G. 
Napier,  Shirley  A. 
Newington,  Barbara. 
North,  Oliver  L. 
O'Boyle,  William  B. 
Osborne,  Duncan. 
Owen,  Robert  W. 
Pena,  Richard. 
Pickering,  Thomas. 
Poindexter,  John  M. 


Posey,  Thomas  V. 
Powell,  Gen.  Colin  L. 
Price,  Charles  H.,  11. 
Proprietary  Manager. 
Proprietary  Pilot. 
Radzimski,  James  R. 
Ramsey,  John  W. 
Ransom,  David  M. 


Volume  19 


Volume  20 


Volume  21 


Volume  22 


Raymond,  Walter,  Jr. 

Regan,  Donald  T. 

Reich,  Otto  J. 

Revell,  Oliver  B. 

Reyer,  Billy  Ray  (See  John  Chapman). 

Reynolds,  William  B. 


Volume  23 


Richard,  Mark  M. 
Richardson,  John,  Jr. 
Robelo,  Alfonso. 
Robinette,  Glenn  A. 
Rodriguez,  Felix  I. 
Roseman,  David. 


XIX 


Rosenblatt,  William. 
Royer,  Larry. 
Rudd,  Glenn  A. 
Rudd,  Glenn  A. 


(See  Henry  Gaffney). 


Volume  24 


Rugg,  John  J. 
Russo,  Vincent  M. 
Sanchez,  Nestor. 
Scharf,  Lawrence. 
Schweitzer,  Robert  L. 
Sciaroni,  Bretton  G. 
Secord,  Richard  V. 


Shackley,  Theodore  G. 
Sigur,  Gaston  J. 
Simpson,  Major  C. 
Sinclair,  Thomas  C. 
Singlaub,  John  K. 


Slease,  Clyde  H.,  IE. 
Smith,  Clifton. 
Sofaer,  Abraham  D. 
Steele,  Col.  James  J. 
Taft,  William  H.,  IV. 
Tashiro,  Jack  T. 
Teicher,  Howard. 
Thompson,  Paul. 
Tillman,  Jacqueline. 


Volume  25 


Volume  26 


Volume  27 


Thurman,  Gen.  Maxwell. 

Trott,  Stephen  S. 

TuU,  James  L. 

Vessey,  John. 

Walker,  William  G. 

Watson,  Samuel  J.,  IIL 

Weinberger,  Caspar. 

Weld,  William. 

Wickham,  John. 

Zink,  Gregory  (See  Alfred  Clark). 


XX 


Preface 


The  House  Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran 
and  the  Senate  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran  and  the 
Nicaraguan  Opposition,  under  authority  contained  in  the  resolutions  establishing 
them  (H.  Res.  12  and  S.  Res.  23,  respectively),  deposed  approximately  290 
individuals  over  the  course  of  their  10-month  joint  investigation. 

The  use  of  depositions  enabled  the  Select  Committees  to  take  sworn  responses 
to  specific  interrogatories,  and  thereby  to  obtain  information  under  oath  for  the 
written  record  and  develop  lines  of  inquiry  for  the  public  hearings. 

Select  Committees  Members  and  staff  counsel,  including  House  minority 
counsel,  determined  who  would  be  deposed,  then  sought  subpoenas  from  the 
Chairmen  of  the  Select  Committees,  when  appropriate,  to  compel  the  individuals 
to  appear  in  nonpublic  sessions  for  questioning  under  oath.  Many  deponents 
received  separate  subpoenas  ordering  them  to  produce  certain  written  documents. 

Members  and  staff  traveled  throughout  the  United  States  and  abroad  to  meet 
with  deponents.  All  depositions  were  stenographically  reported  or  tape-recorded 
and  later  transcribed  and  duly  authenticated.  Deponents  had  the  right  to  review 
their  statements  after  transcription  and  to  suggest  factual  and  technical  correc- 
tions to  the  Select  Committees. 

At  the  depositions,  deponents  could  assert  their  fifth  amendment  privilege 
to  avoid  self-incrimination  by  refusing  to  answer  specific  questions.  They  were 
also  entitled  to  legal  representation.  Most  Federal  Government  deponents  were 
represented  by  lawyers  from  their  agency;  the  majority  of  private  individuals 
retained  their  own  counsel. 

The  Select  Committees,  after  obtaining  the  requisite  court  orders,  granted 
limited  or  "use"  immunity  to  about  20  deponents.  Such  immunity  means  that, 
while  a  deposed  individual  could  no  longer  invoke  the  fifth  amendiment  to  avoid 
answering  a  question,  his  or  her  compelled  responses— or  leads  or  collateral 
evidence  based  on  those  responses— could  not  be  used  in  any  subsequent  criminal 
prosecution  of  that  individual,  except  a  prosecution  for  perjury,  giving  a  false 
statement,  or  otherwise  failing  to  comply  with  the  court  order. 

An  executive  branch  Declassification  Committee,  located  in  the  White  House, 
assisted  the  Committee  by  reviewing  each  page  of  deposition  transcript  and  some 
exhibits  and  identifying  classified  matter  relating  to  national  security.  Some 
depositions  were  not  reviewed  or  could  not  be  declassified  for  security  reasons. 

In  addition,  members  of  the  House  Select  Committee  staff  corrected  obvious 
typographical  errors  by  hand  and  deleted  personal  and  proprietary  information 
not  considered  germane  to  the  investigation. 

In  these  Depositions  volumes,  some  of  the  deposition  transcripts  are  follow- 
ed by  exhibits.  The  exhibits— documentary  evidence— were  developed  by  Select 
Committees'  staff  in  the  course  of  the  Select  Committees'  investigation  or  were 
provided  by  the  deponent  in  response  to  a  subpoena.  In  some  cases,  where  the 
number  of  exhibits  was  very  large,  the  House  Select  Committee  staff  chose  for 
inclusion  in  the  Depositions  volumes  selected  documents.  All  of  the  original 


XXI 


exhibits  are  stored  with  the  rest  of  the  Select  Committees'  documents  with  the 
National  Archives  and  Records  Administration  and  are  available  for  public  in- 
spection subject  to  the  respective  rules  of  the  House  and  Senate. 

The  27  volumes  of  the  Depositions  appendix,  totalling  more  than  30,000  pages, 
consist  of  photocopies  of  declassified,  hand-corrected  typewritten  transcripts 
and  declassified  exhibits.  Deponents  appear  in  alphabetical  order. 


XXII 


Publications  of  the  Senate  and  House 
Select  Committees 


Report  of  the  Congressional  Committees  Investigating  the  Iran-Contra  Affair, 
1  volume,  1987. 

Appendix  A:  Source  Documents,  2  volumes,  1988. 
Appendix  B:  Depositions,  27  volumes,  1988. 
Appendix  C:  Chronology  of  Events,  1  volume,  1988. 
Appendix  D:  Testimonial  Chronology,  3  volumes,  1988. 

All  publications  of  the  Select  Committees  are  available  from  the  U.S. 
Government  Printing  Office. 


XXIII 


.1 


DOTSON 
MILTON 


UNCiffi 


\4or^  -l-'^\i>i 


DEPOSITION  OF  LANGHORNE  ANTHONY  MOTLEY 


Thursday,  June  25,  1987 


U.S.  House  of  Representatives, 

Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert 
Arms  Transactions  with  Iran, 

Washington,  D.  C. 


The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at  10:00  a.m., 
in  Room  B-352,  Rayburn  House  Office  Building,  Terry 
Smiljanich  presiding. 

On  behalf  of  the  Senate  Select  Committee:   Terry 
Smiljanich. 

On  behalf  of  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation: 
Timothy  E.  Traylor,  Special  Agent. 

On  behalf  of  the  Witness:   Richard  C.  Warmer, 
O'Melveny  &  Meyers,  1800  M  Street,  N.W.,  Washington,  D.  C. 
20036 


Partially  Declassified/Released  on    /-^-^^  -■f7 

under  provisions  of  E.O.  12355  3<3  ^l^ 

by  N.  K'anan,  National  Security  Council 


^OC^^ 


W/ilW/nrD 


{ 


(1) 


mmism 


1 

2  DEPOSITION  OF: 

3  Langhorne  Anthony  Motley 

4  By  Mr.  Smiljanich 
5 
6 
7 

e 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 
25 


CONTENTS 

PAGE 


UNCUissm 


\immm 


I         Whereupon, 


LANGHORNE  ANTHONY  MOTLEY 

3  was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  been  previously  duly 

4  sworn,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

5  EXAMINATION  ON  BEHALF  OF 

g  THE  SENATE  SELECT  COMMITTEE 

J  BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

Q    State  your  full  name  for  the  record. 
A    Langhorne ,  L-a-n-g-h-o-r-n-e ,  Anthony,  last  name, 
Motley,  M-o-t-l-e-y. 

Q    You  served  as  Assistant  Secretary  for  Inter- 
American  Affairs  in  the  Department  of  State  for  a  period 
of  time;  is  that  correct? 
A    That's  correct. 

Q    Give  us  the  date  of  your  tenure  as  Assistant 
Secretary. 

A    It  was,  as  I  recall,  the  first  week  of  July  of 
'83  through  the  1st  of  July  of  '85. 

Q    Just  prior  to  that,  you  had  been  Ambassador 
to,  I  believe,  Bolivia? 
A    Brazil. 
Q    What  were  the  years  you  were  Ajnbassador  to 

Brazil? 

A     1981  to  July  3,  1983. 

Q    Could  you  give  us  a  quick  rundown  of  the 


8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


ii&iAi  inoirirn 


Uliii&SiyflED 


'    background  of  your  educational  experience? 
2        A    Yes.   I  was  born  and  raised  in  Rio  de  Janeiro, 
^    Brazil.   My  father  owned  an  oil  company  there.   I  went  to 
*    college  there.   I  graduated  in  1960  with  a  degree  in 

5  political  science.   I  went  into  the  Air  Force  shortly 

6  •      thereafter  as  a  regular  officer,  and  spent  ten  years  in 

7  the  Air  Force.   My  assignment  was  two  years  in  Panama, 

8  three  years   in  Alaska  and  two  years  between  Texas  and 

9  Alabama. 

10  In  1970,  I  resigned  my  commission  as  a  regular 

11  officer,  and  I  entered  the  real  estate  development  business 

12  in  Alaska. 

13  In  1975,  I  entered  the  state  government  as  a 

14  commissioner,  which  was  Secretary  of  the  Department  of 

15  Commerce,  subsequently  Commerce  and  Economic  Development. 

16  I  served  in  that  position  for  two  years,  the  period  the 

17  pipeline  was  being  built.  In  January  of  1978,  I  resigned 

18  ""y  position,  with  a  handful  of  people  formed  a  non-profit 

19  organization  called  Citizens  for  Management  of  Alaskan 
Lands. 

Congress  at  that  time  was  undertaking  the 
Alaska  lands  issue,  which  was  in  essence  a  planning  and 
zoning  effort  on  all  the  Federal  lands  in  Alaska.   That 
was  supposed  to  last  six  weeks;  it  lasted  four  years. 
So  I  lived  in  Anchorage  and  worked  in  Washington  for  four 

IIKIPI  Accinrn 


mmsm 


I 

2 

3 
4 
5 

6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


years,  a  rather  long  commute. 

That  issue  was  over  virtually  in  the  waning 
days  of  *80.   I  returned  to  Alaska.   In  September  of  '81, 
after  having  been  nominated  by  the  President  and  confirmed 
by  the  Senate,  I  went  to  Brazil  as  U.S.  Ambassador. 

In  May  of  "83,  I  was  approached  about  possibly 
taking  over  as  Assistant  Secretary,  a  va/cancy. 

Q    Your  predecessor  was  Tom  Enders? 

A     Yes. 

Q    Go  ahead. 

A    And  on  short  notice,  I  left  Brazil,  resigned 
as  Ambassador,  and  came  back  and  took  over  in  July  of 
•83. 

Q    What  is  your  current  occupation? 

A    I  have  a  company  called  L.  A.  Motley  s  Co., 
which  is  a  corporation.   We  deal  in  foreign  trade  and 
investment  matters,  both  U.S.  interests  overseas,  foreign 
■  interests  to  the  United  States,  and  in  some  cases,  totally 
third-party  interests  involving  the  U.S. 

Q    Now,  when  you  became  Assistant  Secretary  in  July 
of  1983,  what  was  the  existing  structure  of  the  Department  - 
or,  perhaps  you  can  tell  us  what  you  did  in  terms  of  the 
organization  of  the  Bureau  when  you  came  into  it. 

A    All  right.   Well,  the  responsibility  as  Assistant 


Secretary  for  I 


1lf^TE!!ir(FI1 


vers  formulating 


UNKASMD 


1  and  implementing  foreign  policy,  broadly  speaking,  relations 

2  of  the  United  States  with  33  countries,  everything  south  of 

3  the  Rio  Grande  River.   That  includes  some  26  embassies, 
^  and  I  don't  know  how  many  posts. 

5  Obviously,  the  focus  at  that  time  was  the  Central 

6  '  American  issue.   The  structure  of  the  State  Department  is 

7  such  the  regional  assistant  secretaries  report  directly  to 

8  the  Secretary.   That  is  the  chain  of  command. 

9  The  Bureau  is  so  structured  on  both  a  functional 

10  and  geographic  basis,  and  each  assistant  secretary  has  his 

11  own  management  style.   I  chose  to  break  the  Bureau  into 

12  five  deputy  assistant  secretaries  and  realign  the  offices 

13  and  tasks  along  those  lines.   They  were  both  functional 

14  and  geographical:   Central  America,  South  America  and  the 

15  Caribbean.   Brazil  and  Mexico  kind  of  acted  on  their  own 

16  because  they  are  just  big  enough  they  didn't  fit  under  this 

17  although  the  deputy  assistant  secretary  for  South  America 

18  had  responsibilities  for  Brazil. 

19  I  then  had  a  deputy  assistant  secretary  that 

20  would  cover  the  operational,  administrative  area,  and  you 

21  had  another  one  that  covered  the  equivalent  —  equivalent 

22  position  which  covered  the  economic  and  financial  aspects, 

23  because,  although  Central  America  was  number  one  in  the 
J.  headlines  as  far  as  most  people  would  think  about,  the 

issue  that  had  come  to  a  head  was  a  deeper  but  not  so 


25 


ONfiUMKD 


'    visible  problem. 
^        Q    Who  was  your  deputy  assistant  secretary  for 
Central  American  Affairs? 

A     It  was  Craig  Johnstone. 
Q    Was  he  a  career  serviceman? 
A     Yes. 
'         Q    Your  senior  deputy  assistant  secretary  was  who? 

8  A    Was  Jim  Michaels. 

9  Q    Was  there  in  existence  when  you  became  assistant 

10  secretary  a  restricted  interagency  group  dealing  with 

11  Latin  American  Affairs? 

12  A    There  was  both  an  IG  and  a  subpart  of  that,  an 

13  RIG.   They  were  not  separate  but  contractions  of  one  to 

14  the  other. 

15  Q    Could  you  expand  on  that  a  little  bit?   What  was 

16  in  place? 

17  A    What  was  in  place  was  both  an  IG  --  I  served  as 

18  chairman.   The  main  players  by  agencies  were  as  follows: 

19  Department  of  State,  myself  as  chairman  --  I'll  go  through 

20  the  agencies  first.   The  Department  of  State,  the  Office 
2)    of  the  Secretary  of  Defense,  the  Chairman  of  the  Joint 

Chiefs  of  Staff,  the  Central  Intelligence  Agency,  the 
National  Security  Council.   These  were  the  main  players. 


2.  Now,  the  IG  as  such,  which  was  ongoing  throughout, 

25    would  include  representatives  from,  depending  on  the  issue, 

Ulllll_ii>nirirn 


^mrnm 


8 


1  Agriculture,  Commerce,  USTR,  Treasury  and  other  agencies. 

2  For  instance,  when 'we  looked  at  the  economic  sanctions,  on 

3  whether  or  not  to  impose  sanctions  on  Nicaragua,  when  you 

4  looked  at  how  do  you  implement  the  Jackson  Plan  as  it  was 

5  being  developed,  after  it  is  developed,  how  do  you  implement 

6  it,  this  is  something  all  these  agencies  -- 

7  Q    In  other  words,  it  would  expand  from  the  Central 

8  depending  on  the  issues  it  was  dealing  with? 

9  A    Yes. 

10  Q    How  did  the  RIG  fit  into  this? 

11  a'    The  RIG  was  essentially  the  five  main  players. 

12  It  would  differentiate  whether  it  was  an  IG  or  RIG  by 

13  mainly  the  cut-off.   The  normal  RIG  was  the  five  agencies. 

14  On  other  occasions,  others  would  come  to  it  depending  — 

15  the  RIG  was  mainly  the  five  agencies  represented. 

15         Q    Now,  during  your  tenure  as  assistant  secretary, 
let's  go  down  the  five  central  players  and  get  a  listing 
of  the  people,  not  a  comprehensive  listing,  but  the  people 
who  would  normally  attend  or  have  an  open  invitation  to 
attend  a  RIG  meeting  starting  with  the  State  Department. 

A    I  would  be  the  chair,  Craig  Johnston  more  likely 
would  be  the  deputy  assistant  secretary,  Jim  Michaels  was 
there  quite  often,  on  occasion  another  deputy  assistant 
secretary  by  the  name  of  Tony  Gillespie,  because  he  had 
operation  responsibilities,  liaison  with  the  Intelligence 

iikini  *POinrn 


mmsm 


Cominunities  for  my  Bureau,  and  under  Craig  Johnstone  ,  the 
office  director  for  Central  America,  Shawn  Smith,  also  a 
Foreign  Service  Officer. 

Within  the  State  Department  at  different  times, 
depending  on  the  issues,  you  might  have  a  representative 
from  INR,  you  might  have  a  representative  from  a  political 
military  bureau,  and  one,  on  a  rare  occasion,  may  be  more 
than  one,  but  rare,  the  Office  of  Public  Policy. 

Q    At  that  time,  was  that  Otto  Reich? 

A     That's  right. 

Q    With  regard  to  INR's  presence  on  the  RIG,  would 
their  involvement  be  in  connection  with  --  for  example,  if 
you  all  were  talking  about  covert  operations  in  Central 
America,  is  that  something  that  INR  would  usually  partici- 
pate in? 

A    After  a  period  of  time.   Initially  that  wasn't 
correct  and  then  for  a  variety  of  reasons,  the  Secretary 
decided  that  he  wanted  to  restructure  the  overall  covert 
activities  in  which  he  put  all  of  that  in  the  hands  —  at 
his  level  —  in  the  hands  of  Under  Secretary  Mike  Armacost. 
Mike  Armacost  then  looked  to  INR,  because  they  do  have  a 
charter  for  liaison  with  the  Intelligence  Committees  on 
covert  actions  that  come  from  within  the  Central  Intelli- 
gence Agency,  within  the  rubric  of  liaison  with  the  Intelli- 
gence Community.   So  depending  on  how  strongly  they  felt 

IIMPI  aooinrn 


10 


wmmm 


10 


'  about  coming  or  not  coming,  and  the  issues,  they  came  to 

2  the  meetings. 

>»  From  an  operational  sense,  there  is  always  a 

*  healthy  friction  between  geographic  bureaus  and  functional 

5  bureaus.   It  is  the  normal  rub  and  pull  that  happens. 

6  ,       Q    Would  it  be  fair  to  say  INR  was  not  a  rare 

7  participant?  / 

8  A    Well,  throughout  the  whole  period  of  time  there 

9  was  probably  a  period  of  time  of  almost  a  year  they  didn't 

10  participate;  then  after  that,  they  would  participate  in  -- 

11  yes,  they  were  more  than  rare.   But  in  the  first  year,  they 

12  didn't  participate. 

13  Q    All  right.   But  in  your  last  year,  let's  say 

14  July  of  '84  to  July  of  '85,  they  were  a  fairly  regular 

15  participant  in  the  RIG  meetings,  weren't  they? 

16  A     Yes. 

17  Q    Who  usually  would  attend  from  INR? 

18  A    McNeil  when  he  came  back  into  that  job,  was  the 
)9  major  person  to  come  in. 

20  Q    Let  me  put  it  another  way,  too.   Would  it  be  fair 

21  to  say  that  you  certainly,  and  during  your  tenure  as 
assistant  secretary,  did  not  exclude  INR,  specifically 
exclude  INR  from  participation  in  the  RIG? 

A    That  is  correct.   I  wouldn't  necessarily  overly 


encourage  it,  but  I  wouldn't  exclude  it.   Now,  the  reason 

UWPI  AOOirirn 


11 


\ivimmi\i 


11 


is  this.   INR  serves  a  very  useful  function:   Being  the 
Secretary's  intelligence  analyst  of  situations,  and  he 
would  draw  on  them  and 'we  would  draw  on  them.   Whereas  a 
function  of  the  RIG  was  to  analyze  the  situation,  it  also 
was  a  policy  formulation,  and,  as  in  any  bureaucratic  forum, 
you  want  to  make  sure  the  guy  stays  in  the  position  in  which 
he  was  posted.   There  wasn't  any  friction  between  Mike  and 
I;  we  understood  each  other  perfectly.   If  they  felt  a  need 
to  participate,  fine. 

Q    INR  brought  a  certain  expertise  within  their 
field  to  the  RIG  meetings;  is  that  right? 

A    In  what  manner? 

Q    Their  expertise  in  connection  with  their 
familiarity  with  intelligence  matters,  covert  operations, 
matters  such  as  that.   Isn't  that  what  they  would  bring 
to  the  RIG? 

A    At  that  stage  of  the  game,  I  can't  attest  as  to 
how  much  INR  knew  about  the  methodology  of  covert  opera- 
tions.  I  assume  it  was  something,  but  it  wasn't  evidenT*" 
to  me  because  I  didn't  deal  with  them  on  that  basis. 

What  they  brought  was,  I  thought,  the  synthesizing 
analytical  situation  of  the  intelligence  that  dealt  with 
what  is  the  situation  in  Iran.   They  spent  an  inordinate 
amount  of  their  time,  for  instance,  with  the  guys  at  DEA, 
CIA  trying  to  figure  out  how  many  contras  there  were,  how 

IIMi 


12 


UNI^imfD 


11 


'  much  Russian  equipment  was,  military  equipment,  was  getting 

^  in  and  this  kind  of  stuff.   It  was  a  very,  very  difficult 
job,  and  there  are  always  differences  of  opinion. 
I  saw  their  focus  as  in  that  respect. 

^  Q    What  was  your  opinion  of  Frank  McNeil's  expertise 

®  i  in  that  area,  in  this  field? 

7  A    McNeil  is  a  first-class  officer.   He  has  got  a 

8  good  analytical  mind.   He  has  familiarity  with  intelligence 

9  sources  and  methods.   He  has  an  ability  to  gauge,  I  think, 

10  good  judgment  of  credibility,  credence  you  put  on  different 

11  sources.   He  also  brought  to  the  table  an  understanding 

12  of  Central  America. 

13  Q    You  got  along  well  with  Ambassador  McNeil;  is 

14  that  correct? 

15  A    Yes.   He  is  a  very  good  officer.   He  is  feisty. 

16  He  and  I  understood  each  other. 

17  Q    Assistant  Secretary  Abrauns  was  your  successor ; 

18  is  that  correct? 

19  A    Yes. 

20  Q    Now,  Assistant  Secretary  Abrams  stated  to  us 

21  that  his  perception  was  when  he  became  assistant  secretary 

22  that  INR  did  not  attend  at  all  RIG  meetings  and  never 

23  attended  RIG  meetings  at  any  time. 

24  Now,  that  was  a  false  perception;  is  that 

25  correct? 

II UAini  APPinrn 


13 


"NiSKf 


U 


12 


A    Well,  let  me  just  tell  you,  you  asked  me  the 
question.   They  were  a  regular  participant  in  the  last  year. 
I  don't  know  what  Elliott  based  his  perception  on. 

Q    Obviously  that  was  a  false  perception. 

My  question  is,  did  you  and  he  have  any  discus- 
sions when  he  came  in  to  become  assistant  secretary  about 
the  organization  of  the  RIG  and  the  participation  of  INR? 

A    To  my  recollection,  no.   As  you  and  I  discussed 
before,  the  transition  between  Elliott  and  I  followed  to 
a  certain  degree  the  same  transition  I  experienced  with 
Tom  Enders.   What  I  did  with  Elliott  is  the  day  the  Presi- 
dent made  an  announcement  of  his  appointment,  I  took  him 
through  the  whole  Bureau  to  meet  everybody.   I  sat  down  with 
Jim  Michaels  and  the  rest  of  the  staff  and  said,  "There  is 
a  briefing  being  set  up  for  Elliott."   I  told  Elliott  that 
I  would  be  available  to  answer  any  questions  you  would  want 
in  any  area,  but  I  wasn't  going  to  impose  myself  in  the 
middle  of  his  briefing,  and  then  I  went  on  to  run  the 
Bureau. 

Elliott  and  I  did  not  have  to  any  extent  --  he 
may  have  asked  isolated  questions,  but  I  don't  recall  any 
in-depth  discussion  of  whether  INR  participated  or  not. 
It  may  have  happened,  but  I  don't  remember. 

Q     It  would  be  fair  to  say,  wouldn't  it,  that  one 
of  your  primary  misauM:;^^  jiuring  your  tenure  as  assistant 


>apM:;^£  ^uring  your  tenure 

JlolJSifirn 


14 


iifi&mmB 


13 


1  secretary  was  to  attempt  to  get  Congress  and  the  public  to 

2  support  the  administration  policy  in  Central  America? 

3  A    I  probably  spent  more  time  on  that  one  issue  than 

4  all  the  rest  of  them  combined. 

5  Q    Now,  in  mid  1984,  the  new  legislation  imposed  a 

6  cut-off  of  funds  for  -- 

7  A    You  are  talking  about  October  — 

6        Q    I'm  talking  about  October  1,  Boland  II,  I  think 
9    it  is  referred  to  at  times. 

10  When  that  law  came  into  effect  --  first  of  all, 

11  it  didn't  come  as  a  complete  surprise,  did  it?   You  all 

12  were  expecting  something  like  this  to  perhaps  be  coming 

13  down  the  pike? 

14  A    What  we  had  learned  to  expect  is  that  you  had 

15  an  ebb  and  flow  in  the  degrees  of  congressional  support. 
jg    I  think  what  I  have  found  from  my  perception  of  how  other 

people  view  this  thing,  outside  of  those  dealing  with  it 
at  the  time,  was  that  October,  '84,  Boland  Amendment  -- 
Q    Let's  stop. 
(Recess. ) 

BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 
Q    Go  ahead . 

A    So  there  was  always  a  constant  threat  of  a  change 
in  the  level  of  congressional  support  and/or  agreement 
with  the  Executive  Branch  which  way  to  go.   So  every  one 

liKin  Accinrn 


15 


mmm 


14 


of  these  watersheds,  periods  would  be  something  you  could 
say  it  could  go  bad  or  good. 

What  people  forget  is  that  almost  identical 
language  to  Boland  II  was  in  the  CR  that  was  in  conference 
in  October,  '83,  and  didn't  survive  the  Congress.   So  it 
wasn't  like  ho-hum  --  it  was  a  constant  battle  all  the 
time  trying  to  get  some  kind  of  parallel  or  perception  of 
what  the  Executive  Branch  wanted  to  do  or  Congress  was 
prepared  to  do. 

I'm  not  saying  Boland  II  was  not  a  significant 
piece  of  legislation.  What  I'm  saying,  this  battle  went 
on  all  the  time.  It  would  come  at  you  in  appropriations 
legislation,  there  were  tactics  on  both  sides. 

Q     It  would  be  fair  to  say,  wouldn't  it,  Boland  II 
didn't  blind-side  you  in  terms  of  knowing  there  was  a 
distinct  possibility  there  would  be  an  aid  cut-off? 

A    No,  it  didn't  blind-side  in  the  sense  of  a 
surprise.   It  inhibited  the  Executive  Branch's  ability  to 
carry  out  its  policy. 

Q    In  connection  with  that  serious  impact  it  would 
have  upon  administration  policy,  what  can  you  tell  us 
about  any  discussions  that  were  held  within  Government 
that  you  participated  in  dealing  with  preparation  for 
Boland  II  or  how  to  handle  it,  what  to  do? 

A    There  were  a  variety  of  discussions,  and  some 


llMPxmmm 


16 


\immEi> 


15 


'  of  the  discussions  took  place  in  the  Executive  Branch 

^  settings  also.   I  mean,  it  was  a  subject  that  if  this 

^  happens,  what  happens  type  of  thing. 

^  I  can  remember  Senator  Moynihan  on  a  variety  of 

^  occasions  in  the  Senate  Intelligence  Committee  saying  "you 

°  guys  are  going  to  have  to  issue  50,000  passports  here,  face 

7  up  to  it.   This  thing  is  going  to  get  cut  off,"  so  on  and 

8  so  forth.   So  it  was  a  subtle  understanding  but  it  was 

9  obvious  that  by  the  spring  of  '84,  those  moneys  that  had 

10  been  allocated,  authorized,  appropriated  by  Congress  for 

11  the  contras  was  getting  near  running  out. 

12  So  there  was  --  you  were  looking  at  a  short-term 

13  lack  of  resources.   In  addition  to  this,  it  was  obvious 

14  to  us  Congress  was  not  going  to  be  able  to  do  much  until 

15  the  CR.  It  happens  about  that  time.   So  there  was  discus- 

16  sion  back  and  forth. 

17  The  Agency,  the  Central  Intelligence  Agency, 

18  which  was  the  agency  in  charge,  did  briefings  to  the 

19  ;  Congress  saying,  "We  got  X  millions  of  dollars  amount; 

20  I  we  are  cutting  back  subsistence,  make  sure  these  guys  have 
2)  three  squares  a  day,"  and  this  kind  of  stuff. 

22  i  My  focus  was  to  attempt  to  get  a  favorable 

23  resolution.   I  can  tell  you  a  lot  of  people  came  up  in 
October,  '83.   Kind  of  dramatic  circumstances.   But  it  got 


done.   I  was  hopeful  we  could  do  it  again.   We  weren't. 

flMPI  AOCinrn 


17 


vmnmii 


16 


•  So  a  lot  of  my  focus  was  in  trying  to  get  the  legislation. 

2  Q    Well,  what  conclusions  were  reached  with  regard 

3  to  what  --  strike  that. 

*  I  understand  you  are  not  a  lawyer. 

5  A    That's  correct. 

6  ,       Q    But  it  was  part  of  your  job,  I  would  assume,  to 

7  reach  some  kind  of  conclusion  about  what  was  allowable 

8  and  what  wasn't  allowable  under  the  existing  circumstances 

9  once  Boland  II  came  into  effect? 

10  A     Post-Boland  II. 

11  Q  '   What  conclusions  did  you  reach  with  regard  to 

12  what  was  allowable  activity  in  connection  with  support  for 

13  the  contras? 

14  A    The  conclusion  that  I  reached,  obviously,  the 

15  law  in  my  mind  proscribed  the  State  Department,  among 

16  others,  giving  assistance,  indirect  assistance  to  them. 

j7    I  understood  that.   And  so  we  governed  our  actions  on  that 
basis. 

It  didn't  mean  we  didn't  keep  going  back  to 
Congress  trying  to  get  the  money.   But  I  understood  that 
we  were  not  to  engage  --  as  one  of  those  named  or  identified 
in  legislation  as  a  Government  agency  --  was  not  supposed 
to  directly  or  indirectly  assist  the  contras.   It's  kind 
of  a  broad  statement. 

Q     In  otheii  A/finds .  when  the  legislation  referred  to 


;ii«£>iiqs.  wnen  tne  iegisi. 


18 


uNulHooiitlD 


17 


'  the  CIA,  the  Department  of  Defense  and  any  other  agency 

^  engaged-  in  intelligence  activities,  you  understood  that  to 

'  include  the  State  Department  as  an  entity  that  was  not 

*  allowed  to  -- 

^        A    Absolutely. 

S  I       Q    --  allowed  to  engage  in  direct  or  indirect 

7  support  to  the  contras? 

8  A    Exactly. 

9  Q    In  fact,  along  that  line,  let  me  read  to  you 
10  a  quote  that's  attributed  to  you  during  a  hearing  before 
"  Congress.   According  to  this,  you  testified  at  the  time 

12  that  the  restriction  was  written  in  "pretty  plain  English 

13  no  money  should  be  spent  directly  or  indirectly  promoting 

14  the  contra  war.   The  message  was  just  stop."   That  is  not 

15  complicated,  and  it  is  not  micromanagement . 

16  A    I  don't  think  that  last  part  was  in  quotes. 

17  Q    I'm  sorry.   The  term  "micromanagement"  —  those 

18  are  not  your  words? 

19  A    No.   If  you  look  at  it  closely,  you  will  find  -- 

20  Q    Strike  that  question. 

21  A    I'll  tell  you  another  thing  in  regards  to  this. 

22  If  you  go  back  through  the  transcript,  you  will  find  that, 

23  a  not  unusual  event,  in  several  different  newspaper 

24  articles  there  is  a  juxtaposition.   I'm  not  saying  they 

25  are  taking  it  out  of  context  or  anything  else,  something 

iiuni  Aooirirn 


19 


\imm.\i 


18 


that  happened  on  page  96  would  be  added  to  something  that 
appears  on  97.   I'm  telling  you,  having  gone  back  and  read 
the  transcripts  after  reading  this,  if  you  want  to  read  off 
the  transcript,  fine. 

Q     Is  it  true  you  referred  to  the  Boland  II  amend- 
ment as  pretty  plain  English? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Let  me  back  up  for  a  second.   I  had  not  completed 
my  survey  of  the  RIG  and  the  usual  participants.   We  went 
through  the  people  at  the  State  Department.   Who  usually 
attended  from  the  Office  of  the  Secretary  of  Defense? 

A    Nestor  Sanchez,  who  was  deputy  assistant  secre- 
tary for  SIA. 

Q    And  the  Joint  Chiefs  of  Staff? 

A    Vice  Admiral  Burrough. 

Q    Off  the  record. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 
BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

Q    Who  was  the  usual  participant  from  the  Agency? 

A    In  the  first,  through  about  the  summer  of  '84, 
late  summer,  maybe  early  fall  of  '84,  Duane  Clarridge. 

Q    And  after  that? 

A    After  that,  for  about  a  period  of  about  four 
or  five  months,  it  was  his  successor  in  charge  of  Latin 
America  on  the  DDO  side,  whose  name  escapes  me  right  now. 


O  side,  whose  name  escape 

IIMOI  AQQIEffll 


20 


a 

9 

to 
II 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


UNHBimo 


19 


1  Then  he  was,  towards  the  last  two  or  three  months  I  was 

2  there,  he  was  replaced  as  the  regular  participant  byl 

3  who  was  head  of  what  they  call  the  Central  America  Task 
Force . 

5  In  essence,  what  they  did  was,  I  believe,  and 

g  I  I  have  to  check  this,  but  I  believe  what  they  did  was  they 
y    gave  Dewey's  successor  responsibilities  for  all  Latin 

America  and  Central  America.   Even  though^^^^^ worked  for 
this  guy,  this  guy  was  put  more  --^^^^^|was  put  more  in 
Central  America. 

Q  -   Okay.   And  from  the  National  Security  Council, 
who  was  there? 

A    Several  at  different  times.   Probably  the  longest 
throughout  the  two-year  period  of  time,  the  most  regular 
participant  was  Oliver  North. 

Q    Who  else  would  sometimes  attend? 

A    There  would  be  Constantine  Menges ,  Jackie  Tillman, 
a  fellow,  it  was  a  State  Department  officer  -- 

Q    Ray  Burghardt? 

A    Ray  Burghardt.  I  think  that's  about  it.   There 
would  be  different  ones  in  and  out.   Each  had  different 
responsibilities.   It  was  kind  of  fuzzy  as  to  who  was  the 
real  NSC. 

Q    What  do  you  mean  by  that?   In  other  words,  who 
at  the  NSC  when  it  came  to  Latin  American  Affairs  and  when 


JINCUSSIflFn 


21 


BMSfflEO 


20 


specifically  came  to  matters  involving  the  Nicaraguan 
opposition  -- 

A    The  reason  I  say  it's  kind  of  fuzzy  is  that  RIG, 
you  should  understand,  covered  everything  in  Latin  America, 
not  just  Central  America.   It  would  depend  to  a  certain 
degree  what  the  issue  was,  and,  secondly,  whatever  the  issue 
was,  who  was  doing  what  to  whom. 

Q    When  the  RIG  dealt  with  Central  American  Affairs 
and  specifically  Nicaraguan  affairs,  did  you  have  a  clear 
understanding  as  to  the  division  of  responsibility  at  the 
NSC  staff  for  those  matters? 

A    I  had  a  clear  understanding  there  didn't  appear 
to  be  a  clear  division  of  responsibilities  in  NSC.   Every- 
body wanted  to  play  that  part. 

The  way  they  are  organized,  it  is  looser  and 
depends  on  whomever  has  been  internally  tasked.   It  is  not 
as  compartmentalized  as  our  operations  are. 

Q    Oliver  North  was  a  frequent  participant  at  the 
RIG  meetings? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Now,  going  back  to  where  I  had  left  off  when 
we  were  discussing  the  implementation  of  Boland  II  and 
your  activities  and  the  activities  of  the  Bureau  during 
that  time,  did  you  ever  have  any  discussions  with  Oliver 
North  about  his  understanding  of  what  Boland  II  allowed  and 


IIMPI  ACOinrn 


22 


msmm 


21 


1  didn't  allow? 

2  A  .   Yes.   I  had  one  discussion  with  him  in  my  office 

3  following  a  RIG  meeting,  the  time  I'm  not  sure,  but  it 

4  must  have  been  within  a  reasonably  short  period  of  time 

5  after  the  passage  of  Boland  II. 

6  1       Q    So  this  would  have  been  sometime  in  1984? 

7  A    Yes. 

8  Q    Go  ahead.   What  was  discussed  at  that  time? 
g         A    I  don't  know  how  the  subject  came  up  or  what 

JO    prompted  it,  but  I  brought  it  up,  and,  in  essence,  I  said 
|]    to  Ollie  that  I  felt  that  the  language  of  Boland  II  pro- 
J2    scribed  to  all  of  us  that  were  in  a  RIG  direct  or  indirect 
j3    support. 

j4  Ollie  said  --  let  me  strike  that.   He  said 

]5    the  NSC,  as  part  of  the  White  House,  is  not  an  intelli- 
jg    gence  agency.   I  think  I  was  more  surprised  by  the  comment 
j7    because  I  never  thought  of  it  in  that  context.   I  just 
fg    .never  thought  it  through.   I  just  assvimed  it,  and  I 

didn't  —  so  in  my  surprise,  I  said,  Well,  that's  some- 
thing I  hadn't  thought  of  and  he  might  have  wanted  to 
seek  appropriate  counsel  on  that  subject.   That  was  the 
end  of  the  discussion. 

Q    He  indicated  to  you  that  he  did  not  feel  that 
Boland  II  applied  to  his  activities  at  the  NSC  because 
the  NSC  was  not  fl^flSiiffy  engaged  in  intelligence  -- 


23 


|)N60S8»ttD 


22 


A  Right. 

Q     You  were  somewhat  surprised? 

A    I  never  thought  about  it  in  that  context.   I 
wasn't  disputing  his  assertion. 

Q    But  you  weren't  agreeing  with  it  either? 

A    No.   I  was  surprised  by  it.   Once  having  been 
surprised,  I  didn't  quote  People  v.  Schwartz  and  shoot 
down  his  argument. 

Q    You  suggested  to  him  he  might  want  to  seek  legal 
counsel  on  that? 

A  '    Yes.   It  wasn't  my  ]ob  to  tell  him  what  his  job 
description  was. 

Q    Did  he  tell  you  he  had  obtained  any  kind  of 
legal  counsel  on  the  issue? 

A    I  don't  recall. 

Q    Now,  in  connection  with  what  could  or  couldn't 
be  done  in  view  of  Boland  II,  were  there  any  discussions 
that  you  participated  in  or  heard  of  concerning  whether 
or  not  private  American  groups  could  fill  the  breach  in 
Central  America  given  the  inability  of  the  Government  to 
use  appropriated  funds? 

A    Well,  even  before  the  cut-off,  it  was  e>7ident 
if  by  nothing  else  than  reading  the  papers  that  there  were 
private  groups  in  the  United  States  that  felt  strongly 
enough  about  the  issue  to  supply  money,  goods  many  times. 

llMniJOPinrn 


24 


limtmii 


23 


Through  that  period  of  time  from  when  I  got  there  until 
before  Boland,  there'  were  groups  that  would  gather  Christmas 
toys  or  food  and  bandages.   In  fact,  there  was  an  issue  that 
came  out  in  the  paper  recalling  congressional  inquiries  in 
regard  to  National  Guard  airplanes  on  missions  going  there 
taking  some  of  this  stuff.   It  was  a  subject  --  and,  at 
the  same  time,  there  were  private  groups  supporting  the 
Sandinista  position. 

Were  there  private  efforts?   Yes,  we  were  aware 
of  such.   I  was  aware  of  it  from  reading  the  newspapers. 

Q    I  understand  that.   My  question  specifically, 
though,  is  whether  or  not  there  were,  any  discussions  about 
turning  to  these  groups  to  engage  in  activities  the 
Government  was  now  proscribed  from  doing. 

A    Your  phrase  "turning  to,"  I'm  not  trying  to 
nit-pick.   Your  question  might  imply  the  Government  then 
says.  Okay,  we  have  to  ge  here,  we  have  to  go  here. 

Q    That's  what  I'm  suggesting. 

A    So  in  that  context,  the  answer  is  no. 

Q    Okay. 

A    There  were  obviously  discussions  the  money  was 
drying  up  and  there  wasn't  going  to  be  any  and  somehow 
these  guys  had  to  live,  sure.   It  is  obvious. 

Q     But  — 

A  They  were   undertaking^hgli^a\«iBfeund-raising 


WiKWff 


25 


msMB 


24 


t 

2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 

e 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 

•7 
18 
19 
20 
2t 
22 
23 
24 
25 


efforts . 

Q     I  understand.   But  there  was  no,  to  your  knowledge, 
unconscious  decision  to  have  people  in  the  Government  such 
as  Oliver  North  deal  directly  with  these  private  groups 
to  see  to  it  that  they  did  things  in  furtherance  of  our 
policy  in  Central  America  because  the  Government  could  no 
longer  engage  in  those  activities;  a  conscious  decision  to 
do  it  rather  than  simply  knowing  they  were  already  doing 
it? 

A    I  was  unaware  of  any  conscious  decision  or 
discussion . 

Q    Did  you  have  any  perception  that  Lieutenant 
Colonel  North  had  any  connection  with  private  groups  opera- 
ting in  Central  America? 

A    Colonel  North  had  strong  feelings  on  the  issue 
of  the  contras  and  the  role  they  played.   The  rest  of 
us  did  --  all  of  us  felt  strongly.   Anybody  who  examined 
.that  policy  from  the  Elxecutive  Branch  --  I'll  tell  you  my 
feelings . 

I  felt  that  the  presence  of  the  contras  was 
fundamental  to  carrying  out  the  purpose  of  the  policy. 
I  consider  the  contras  as  an  instrument  of  U.S.  national 
policy.   I  will  let  every  other  guy  describe  how  he  felt 
about  it.   I  think  that  --  so  I  felt  strongly  about  it. 
I  think  Colonel  North  also  felt  strongly  about  it  as  part 


iiMPI  AQ^iCICn 


26 


10 


\iwmB 


25 


'  of  the  policy,  and  also  as  part  of  an  entity,  a  group 

^  per  se .   A  differentiation  between  the  two. 

^        Q    But  my  specific  question  is  whether  or  not  you 

had  any  perception  beyond  that  about  his  connection  with  -- 
^        A    I  think  it  would  be  fair  to  state  --  knowing  how 
*  :  strongly  he  felt  about  the  contras  as  an  entity  as  opposed 

'  to  a  policy,  I  would  not  have  been  surprised  if  he  had 

®  talked  with  people  and  been  in  contact  with  people  whose 

^  aims  were  to  raise  money  for  the  contras. 

If  you  see  Ollie  North  as  I  saw  him,  dedicated, 

"  a  person  with  strong  feeling  on  the  issue,  it  would  not 

'2  be  unusual  for  him  to  enter  into  that  kind  of  discussion,  . 

13  contacts. 

14  Q    But  were  you  aware,  did  you  have  any  specific 

15  knowledge  of  his  involvement? 

16  A     No.   No. 

J7         Q    There  has  been  public  testimony  now  before  both 

18  committees  relating  to  what  other  witnesses  have  said  about 

19  Colonel  North's  activities  during  --  let  me  take  the  time 

20  frame  of  mid-1984  to  mid-1985  when  you  were  assistant 

21  secretary  for  Latin  American  Affairs,  in  which  witnesses 

22  have  alleged  Colonel  North  passed  military  intelligence  to 

23  the  contras,  had  a  supply  of  Traveler's  checks  in  his 

24  office  and  made  payments  to  contra  leaders.   It  is  fair 

25  to  say  you  were  not  aware  of  any  of  those  activities  of 


lot  aware  of  any  of  those 


27 


19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


DimStKD 


26 


1  Colonel  North? 

2  A    1  knew  nothing  about  Traveler's  checks.   With 

3  regard  to  the  issue  of  passing  intelligence,  it  wasn't 

4  in  Colonel  North's  30b  description  to  do  that. 

5  Throughout  this  whole  period  of  time,  there  was 

6  always  an  issue  about  sharing  intelligence  or  not.   Congress 

7  later  clarified  that  point:   The  conduit  for  passing  that 

8  intelligence  goes  through  the  Central  Intelligence  Agency. 

9  If,  in  fact,  the  decision  was  made  or  not  made,  that  was 
10    the  conduit  to  do  it. 

ft  To  aiwer  your  question,  the  answer  is  no. 

12  Q  Certainly  it  was  your  perception  it  would  not 
be  in  any  event  part  of  Colonel  North's  job  description 
to  be  the  conduit  for  military  intelligence  to  the  contras? 

A    That's  correct.   With  the  caveat  I  don't  write 
his  job  description  nor  give  him  his  instructions. 

^^         Q    I'm  just  talking  about  your  perception  of  the 

fg    matter. 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    Again  on  the  same  topic  of  general  discussions 
about  what  Boland  meant  and  what  could  or  couldn't  be  done, 
d"3you  recall  that  --  this  would  have  been  when  James  Baker 
was  Chief  of  Staff,  before  he  became  Secretary  of  Treasury. 
DO  you  recall  Jim  Baker  being  very,  very  clear  and  emphatic 
in  his  opinion  about  the  Boland  |mgD<ta|at,  that  it  was  clear 


28 


17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


UlffiSISSinED 


27 


1  to  him  there  could  be  no  involvement  of  any  of  the  Govern- 

2  ment  agencies  with  the  contras  during  the  cut-off  period? 

3  A    What  sticks  in  my  mind  is  a  statement  made  by 

4  then  Chief  of  Staff  Jim  Baker  at  a  meeting  in  the  Situation 

5  Room  at  the  White  House.   Obviously  it  had  something  to  do 

6  with  Latin  America.   Otherwise,  why  would  I  be  there?   The 

7  matter  which  he  said  was,  as  much  as  we  might  not  like  the 

8  Boland  Amendment  and  what  it  did  as  far  as  cutting  down 
g  our  options,  the  facts  were  clear  the  U.S.  Government  had 

JO  to  stick  to  the  law.   I  can't  recall  --  I 'm^araphrasing 

f]  what  he  said  because  I^can't  recall  his  exact  words.   That 

12  was  the  impact  in  my  mind.   It  was  a  strong  statement. 

13  Q    That  was  the  time  Robert  McFarlane  was  National 

14  Security  Adviser;  is  that  correct? 

15  A    That's  correct. 
Ig         Q    Do  you  recall  Mr.  McFarlane  rendering  any  opinion 


or  did  you  have  any  impression  as  to  his  view  of  the 
matter? 

A    He  never  rendered  an  opinion  that  I  can  recall. 
And  I  never  discussed^it  with  him  at  length  other  than  the 
fact  thafc=we_would  have  empathized  how  difficult  it  made, 
or  how  we  -Xelt  how  detrimental  it  was  to  the  interest 
the  United  States  to  have  that  restriction.   I'm  not 
suggesting  that  he  was  fighting  -- 

Q     In  June  of  198  4,  there  was  an  nsPG  meeting 


stiof 


msmm 


29 


mmmw 


28 


which  --  I'm  not  suggesting  you  were  there,  I  don't  think 
you  were  --  an  NSPG  meeting  which  discussed  specifically 
the  possibility  of  going  to  third  countries  to  make  contri- 
butions or  render  aid  directly  to  the  contras  in  view  of 
the  U.S.  inability  to  do  so  because  of  the  aid  restrictions. 
Do  you  recall  there  being  discussions  up  to  the  NSPG  level 
of  that  matter  during  that  time  frame? 

A    That  subject  was  discussed.   Whether  it  was  June 
or  after  Boland  or  just  before  Boland,  I  don't  know,  but 
it  was  also  a  subject  of  congressional  inquiry. 

At  congressional  hearings  you  got  questions  asked 
before  that  period  of  time  on  the  subject  of  third 
countries .  ^ ' 

I  was  unaware  of  any  solicitation  made  to  any 
third  country  throughout  the  period  that  I  was  there. 

With  the  passage  of  Boland,  there  was  at  least, 
to  my  knowledge,  a  political  decision  made,  which  is  a 
sieve  below  a  legal  interpretation  of  Boland.   You  have 
two  sieves  if  you  operate  in  Government:   Should  you  do 
this  from  a  policy  or  political  aspect,  and  can  you  or 
can't  you  from  a  legal  aspect.   The  first  sieve  is  politi- 
cal.  In  my  mind  it  was  very  clear,  and  there  was,  if  not 
discussion,  implicit  instructions  from  the  Secretary  -- 
my  understanding  -- 

Q    You  mean  the  Secretary  of  State? 


nean  tne  Secretary  ot  Stat 


30 


oNciwiiiir 


29 


1  A    State.   That  for  political  reasons,  we  would  not 

2  solicit.   At  that  time  it  was  done  for  political  reasoning. 

3  The  reasoning  I  will  give  you  is  this.   As  I  see  it,  many 

4  of  the  countries  that  could  have  been  solicited  or  been 

5  contributors  were  recipients  of  foreign  aid,  U.S.  foreign 

6  aid.   You  didn't  have  to  be  clairvoyant  to  understand  sharp 

7  opponents  to  the  administration  policy  would  try  to  make 

8  the  case,  wait  a  minute,  you  guys  are  soliciting  from  these 

9  guys,  and  that  gets  out  in  the  record  and  clouds  the  issue. 
10    It  is  a  tough  one  to  say,  no,  I'm  not  mad,  type  of  approach. 
n  So  from  a  political  point  of  view  ■^'-  and  I  know, 

12  I  went  up  there  and  testified  on  the  issue  many  times,  I'm 

13  not  about  to  get  into  that.   I  didn't  think  it  served  us 

14  any  purpose  in  that  sense.   So  there  was  a  --  there  was 

15  no  doubt  in  my  mind  it  was  political.   It  was  a  political 

15    decision.   I  understood.   There  wouldn't  be  any  solicitations 

tj         made  by  the  Department  of  State. 

fg  I  was  only  concerned  about  the  Department  of 

State.   I  don't  mean  to  say  only  the  Department  of  State. 
Q    Let  me  madce  this  dear  now«a-  Later  in  thetij^ 
period,  in  mid  to*31Ke  1985,  Congress,_the  Department  ^E.. 
State  —  ^^ 

A    I  was  gone  by  then. 

Q    --  authorized  the  Department  of  State  to  solicit 
third  parties? 


UNCLASSIFIFn 


31 


vmsms 


30 


I  understand  that.   Before  that  specific  language 
in  the  legislation,  I'm  talking  about  that  time  frame,  I 
understood  that  the  Department  of  State  certainly  was  not 
going  to  be  .doing  this  activity,  soliciting  third  countries 
during  the  time  you  were  there;  is  that  correct? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    Now,  did  you  also  have  an  understanding  that 
that  was  going  to  apply  to  other  part^  of  the  Government 
also,  such  as  the  NSC,  Department  of  Defense,  anyone  else? 
Were  there  discussions  about- whether  ottier  agencies  could 
or  could  t»t  do  ^at?        .'""   ^* 

A    No,  it  didn'Jt,  entez^n€^tae.„discussion .   I  just 
focused  on  the  Department  of  Si^ate.  ' 

There's  one  aspect  of  this  whole  issue,  donations 
and/or  solicitations  from  foreign  countries.   Another 
aspect  other  than  this,  you  are  not  going  to  deal  in  foreign 
aid  kind  of  thing.   There  are  several  countries  in  the  world 
that  have  a  competing  mirror  image.  North  Korea,  South 
Korea,  Taiwan,  the  Republic  of  China,  Israel,  the  Arab 
States,  North  Africa,  black  Africa.   Those  issues,  Zionism, 
other  issues  get  debated  ad  nauseum  at  forums  like  the 
United  Nations  and  other  places.   It  is  not  unusual  for 
the  countries  on  both  sides  of  that  issue  in  Latin  America 
to  go  around  and  try  to  win  friends,  because  Latin  America 
is  33  countries,  that's  33  votes.   Some  of  them  don't  have 

\\m  AQCinrn 


32 


wimsB 


31 


'    relations  with  different  ones.   So  it  is  hot  an  unusual 

2  event  to  find  one  or  the  other  of  these  countries  on  their 

3  own  motion,  if  you  would,  trying  to  curry  favors. 

*  I  can  give  you  examples  of  the  Republic  of  China 

5  going  to  the  Island  of  Dominique  wanting  to  erect  a  cultural 

6  ,  center  and  do  all  kinds  of  things.   What  is  the  national 

7  interest  of  the  Republic  of  China  and  the  Island  of 

6    Dominique?   I  just  point  this  out  to  you  because  I  think 
9    in  this  whole  thing  of  solicitation,  it  is  in  their  self- 

10    interest  to  do  those  kinds  of  things. 

Jl  Again,  it  gets  kind  of  fuzzy.   It  is  an  aspect 

12  many  people  use.   I  see  it  in  Guyana,  Surinam^  the 

13  Republic  of  China,  Taiwan,  each  trying  to  vie  -- 

14  Q    Were  there  any  discussions  about  the  second 

15  sieve  concerning  third-country  solicitation,  that  is 

16  whether  it  could  be  done,  whether  it  was  legal? 

17  AX  don't  recall  any  specific  legal  debate, 

fg    discussion  of  the  issue  because  from  my  mind,  that  first 
fg    sieve  had  been  passed  so  you  didn't  have  to  go  to  the 
2Q    second  sieve.   I  don't  remember  any,  "let's  write  a  legal 
memorandum,  let's  have  a  meeting  to  discuss  the  legal 
aspects."   I  don't  remember  that  aspect  of  this  thing. 
The  first  sieve  stopped  so  you  just  go  on  to 
the  second  one.   I  think  in  most  people's  minds,  if  they 


thought  about  it,  tah^.wfliAlc^  aia^i.|-_j  =;-flijestionable  . 


33 


UIWt4J^ED 


32 


0    Now,  you  were  not  aware  of  any  solicitations 
made  either  by  the  Department  of  State  or  any  other  entity 
of  Government  during  your  tenture  as  assistant  secretary? 
A     That's  right. 

Q  So  if^^^^^Hwas  approached  and  contributed 
S2  million  in  1984,  that  is  something  you  are  totally 
unaware  of. 

A    Absolutely. 

Q    And  you  were  not  aware  of  any  discussions  that 
Colonel  North  may  have  had  witt 

^^^^^^^^las  to  use  false  or  end-user 
certificates  for^^^^^^^^lin  an  attempt  to  get  aid  to 
the  contras?   You  were  not  aware  of  any  approaches 
made  to^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hon 
A    No.   There  is  only  one  incident,  the  specifics 
of  which  I  don't  recall,  and  I  believe  it  wasl 
the  NSC,  in  an  unusual  procedure  sent  a  cable  to  the 
ambassador,  Michaels  can  give  you  more  specifics  on  this 
and  Craig  Johnstone  --  instructions,  as  I  recall,  by  cable 
inform^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^f^for         from 
^^^^^^^^^^^H  something  to  do  with  arms  coming  to 
^^^^^^^H   I  think  it  may  have  involved  different  --  I'm 

even  sure    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|r 
ring  a  bell.   It  may  have  been  some  other  --  when  we 
became  aware  of  that,  we  instructed  the  ambassador  to 


34 


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mmsm 


33 


disregard  that  cable,  not  carry  out  those  instructions  -- 

Q    Did  you  do  this  by  further  cable? 

A    No,  we  did  this  orally  by  secure  telephone.   And 
then  went  back  to  the  NSC  and  pointed  out  to  them,  in  our 
opinion,  I  think  in  that  case  it  was  a  violation  of  the 
Export  Control  Act. 

You  said^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.  ever 

remember^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand      probably 
not  be  a  violation  of  the  Export  Control  Act,  but  you 
mentioned^^^^^^^^Hand  it  rang  a  bell. 

Q    What  was  the  time  frame,  do  you  recall?   '84, 
'85? 

A    I  think  it  must  have  been  '84  sometime.   But 
the  NSC  backed  off  and  that  was  the  end  of  that. 


Who  at 


le  J^i^Has  doing  tlis?  1^# 


A^^    ^m'liot^  sure .   I  can't,  I  think  McFarlane  made 
the  final  decision  to  back  eff.   I  can't  speak  as  to  whether 
he  was  involved  —  I  mean,  we  get  into  this  thing  halfway, 
the  ainbassador  says  I  have  a  cable  -- 

Q    Something  he  got  directly  from  NSC? 

A    Right.   Michaels  or  Johnstone  can  give  you  more 
specifics . 

Q    Was ^^^^^^^^^^^^H the  ambassador  then? 

A    I  really  don't  remember.   It  may  have  been 
his  predecessor. 


ilfclCliSMD 


35 


UNfietSSfflED 


34 


It  was  an  unusual  procedure.   Ambassadors  receive 
their  instructions  from  the  Secretary  of  State.   Ambassadors 
are  ambassadors  for  all  the  United  States,  the  President's 
personal  representative. 

The  way  instructions  normally  goes  is  from  the 
Secretary  of  State,  and  it  is  unusual  and  I  think  in  rare 
exceptions  unhealthy  for  ambassadors  to  be  receiving 
instructions  from  Africa  or  whatever. 

Q    You  were  not  aware  of  any  contributions  by  the 
Iduring  your  tenure? 

No .  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^V some- 
body will  say ^^^^^^^^H were  --  you  know,  a  congressional 
question  that  says,  all  right,  di^^^^^^^^B?^^^  money 
to^^^^^ 

Q    You  had  no  personal  knowledge? 
A    No.   I  found  out  the  guy  was  putting  up  a 
million  dollars  a  month.   It  came  as  a  great  surprise  to 
me. 

I  'm  almost  done. 


36 


mmm 


1 

2 

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25 


Q    Let  me  just  ask  you,  did  you  take  any  trips  to 
Central  America  with  Colonel  North? 

A    I  don't  think  so.   The  trips  I  took  to  Central 
America  were  either  solo  or  Harry  Slaughterman.   On  one 
occasion  I  went  to  Cap  Weinberger.   I  don't  think  --  I 
can't  remember  whether  Ollie  was  on  that  trip  or  not. 
But  I  took  no  other  trips. 

Q    I  know  all  of  the  activity,  all  the  testimony 
that  has  been  developed  so  far  in  connection  with  this 
secret  airstrip  in  northern  Costa  Rica  all  took  place  after 
your  tenure  as  assistant  secretary.   My  question  is  simply: 

IIMPI  ftocicirn 


37 


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2 
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sl 

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II 

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UNOUSSiED 


36 


When  you  --  given  your  involvement  in  Latin  American  Affairs 
and  your  tenure  as  assistant  secretary,  candidly  what  was 


your  reaction  when  you  read  about  this  secret  a 


irstripJ 


northern  Costa  Rica?   What  was  your  reaction? 
A     If  somebody  had  asked  me  whether  we  would  be 
able  to  do  that,  my  answer  would  have  been  no.   So  from 
that  point  of  view,  I  thought  it  was  a  significant  event 
in  that  sense. 

I  always  got  the  feeling  the  Costa  Ricans  were 
short  of  that  kind  of  visible  support.   The  Costa  Ricans 
have  kind  of  a  different,  paradoxical  relations  view  of 
Nicaragua. 

If  you  run  a  poll  in  Costa  Rica  today  and  ask 
the  question,  who  do  you  hate  the  most,  Somoza  or  the 
Sandinistas,  they  would  say  Somoza. 

Ask  a  second  question:   Who  do  you  fear  the  most? 
.Overwhelmingly  the  Sandinistas.   Because  Somoza  didn't 
have  any  territorial  --  there  was  a  revolution  without 
frontiers,  any  of  this  stuff.   These  guys  worry  about 
that.   It  is  a  very  convoluted  feeling  they  have. 

Q    Well,  would  you  agree  with  this  statement: 
A  covert  airstrip  being  used  or  going  to  be  used  to  help 
resupply  the  contras  in  Nicaragua  located  in  northern 
Costa  Rica  with  the.knpwledgejDt^  aad.5fliae  participation 


he   knowledge _of  and. some 


38 


3 


mmmn 


37 


'    by  the  American  embassy  in  Costa  Rica  and] 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|is  extreme 

with  regard  to  U.S. -Costa  Rican  bilateral  relations? 
*   Would  you  agree  with  that? 

5  A    I  would  deem  the  most  significant  aspect  of  that 

6  .  question,  that  statement  is  the  effect  it  has  when  it  becomes 

7  public. 

8  Q    In  what  sense? 

9  A    Well,  in  the  sense  that  maybe  in  Costa  Rica's 

10    own  best  interest,  they  decided  they  want  to  support.   The 
H    body  politic  and  the  climate  is  such  we  are  neutral  and 

12  we  don't  do  that.   If  you  have  public  exposure  of  this 

13  information,  it  puts  their  government  in  an  embarrassing 

14  position. 

15  Q    Let  me  ask  you  this  hypothetical  question.   If 

16  you  as  assistant  secretary  had  heard  that  a  private 

17  American  group  had  negotiated  with  the  Costa  Rican  govern- 

18  ment  for  permission  to  put  in  a  resupply  airstrip  to  assist 

19  the  contras  in  southern  Nicaragua,  you  as  assistant  secre- 

20  tary  would  want  to  know  more  about  that,  wouldn't  you? 

21  A     Yes. 
MR.  SMILJANICH:   That's  all  I  have. 
I'm  sorry.   Let  me  pursue  that  one  last  question. 
BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

Q    Why  would  you  want  to  know  more  about  that? 


\m\  AcciHEa 


39 


m\mm 


38 


1 

2 
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5 
6 

7 

e 

9 
10 
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12 

lal 

14 
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24 
25 


A  Because  of  the  --  I  guess  because  it  is  part  of 
the  thing  you  put  forward  in  the  first  question.  I'm 
leading  off  with  that  was  the  involvement  of  the  embassy, 
^^^^^^^^^^^|and  the  rest  of  it.  You  know,  if  a  rancher 
decides  to  put  in  a  strip,  fine,  but  when  you  start  bringing 
the  U.S.  Government  into  it,  then  it  starts  affecting  the 
bilateral  relations. 

It  was  definitely  a  hypothetical  question.   You 
asked  for  my  reaction.   I  gave  it  to  you.   It  was  based 
on  your  two  questions. 

Q  ■   Let  me  exclude  the  involvement  of  the  American 
embassy  for  a  you      that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B 

^^^^^Hconsidered  this  as  a  covert,  secret  matter  that 
was  not  to  be  discussed  and  that  the  airstrip  was  going 
to  be  use^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^■was  going  to  be  used  to  supply  contras 
in  southern  Nicaragua,  if  you  heard  about  that,  you  would 
want  to  become  more  informed  about  that  topic,  wouldn't 
you? 

A    Yes,  in  the  sense  you  always  want  to  build  up 
your  body  of  knowledge  of  what  it  is,  the  capabilities  of 
the  contras  and  Sandinistas. 

Now,  as  I  say,  you  keep  complicating  this  issue 
by  saying^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H-  Well ,  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 
isn't  an  official  --  there  is  explicit  letters  signed  by 

JlMCUOOinrn        


40 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

t1 

12 

13 

14 

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16 

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16 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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24 

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^}00^ 


39 


the  President  hammered  out  between  Department  of  State  and 
the  Central  Intel-ligence  Agency  that  specifies  who  does  what 
to  whom  and  who  has  a  right  to  know.   If  the  CI^ 

[conducts  in  any  manner  any  kind  of  representations  on 
behalf  of  the  U.S.  Government  or  acting  in  the  U.S.  Govern- 
ment capacity  to  make  this  happen,  he  is  conducting  an 
operation  within  the  area  of  authority,  the  ambassador 
has  a  total  right  to  know  about. 

So  if  the  ambassador  doesn't  know,  theni 

[is  in  serious  violation  of  a  hammered-out 
agreement.   If  the  ambassador  does  know,  then] 
I  has  not  violated  that. 

But  then  what  happens  after  that  is  a  whole 
different  function.   I  teach  a  course  at  the  State  Depart- 
ment for  new  U.S.  ambassadors.   We  go  through  the  letters 
of  the  President,  the  letters  of  the  Secretary  of  State. 
These  agreements  are  modified  by  every  President.   There 
is  enough  body  of  experience  out  there  to  be  able  to 
tell.   A  CIA^^^H^^^^^^fcannot  operate  in  that  kind  of 
manner,  without  informing  him  and  concurrence  of  the 
ambassador. 

Q    If  the  ambassador  knows  about  it  and  it  is  a 
significant  matter,  the  regional  assistant  secretary  should 
know  about  it  likewise;  isn't  that  correct? 


Should. 


mmim 


41 


6 

7 
8 
9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

:9 

20 

21    I 

22' 

23 

24 

25 


UNsemED 


40 


1  MR.  SMILJANICH:   That's  all. 

2 


.  ,    '•  •  1 ' 

MR.  TRAYLOR:   No  questions. 


(Whereupon,  at  11:15  a.m.,  the  deposition  was 
4  I   adjourned . ) 

5 


IIWfUMicirB 


42 


STENOGRAPHIC  MINUTES 
UnnriMd  >i«d  UiMdtod 
Not  for  Qootatloa  or 
DnyUcition 


UNGLASSIRED 


r 


0(»YNO-J .JQF ^m-JCOHtt 


Partially  Declassified/Released  on   ^^J-4<<-^8S 

under  ofovision-j  ol  E.O  12356 
by  K  Johnson.  National  Sscunty  Council 


Ck>mmittee  Hearings 
U.S.  HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 


W 


OFFICE  OF  THE  CLERK  ^^10^' 

Offleo  of  OiBdal  Reporters  ^J-*-*^^^""^ 


43 


UNCLASSIHED 


NAHE:     HIR0314002  |l|l||    I    IIVVIblLII  PAGE  1 


RPJS  BOYUH 
DCHM  SPRADLIHG 

DEPOSITION  or  DAVID  P.  HULLIGAH 

Monday,  February  2,  1987 

and  Tuesday,  February  3,  1987 

House  of  Representatives, 
Select  Connittee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions  with 
Iran, 
Washington,  D.C. 

The  select  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at  11=00  a.m. 
at  Headquarters,  Southern  Air  Transport,  Venadades  Building, 
6th  Floor,  Miami  International  Airport,  Miami,  Florida, 
Charles  Tleier,  Special  Deputy  Chief  Counsel  to  the  Select 
Committee,  presiding. 


Partially  Declassified/Released  on  *  ZjM-t08S 
under  orouisions  o(  E  0  12356 
by  K  Johnson.  Nalional  Security  Council 


UNCIASSIHED 


44 


UNCIASSIHED 


KAHE:     HXR03((002       llllll.l    U.A.Ainril  PAGE  2 


HR.  TIEFER-   Let's  go  on  the  record. 
My  name  is  Charles  Tieier  I  am  Special  Deputy  Chiei 
Counsel  of  the  House  Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert 
Arms  Transactions  with  Iran,  pursuant  to  House  Resolution 
^2,     100th  Congress,  First  Session. 

If  the  witness  would  take  the  oath  at  this  point. 

Whereupon,  DAVID  P.  flULLIGAN,  after  having  been 
first  duly  sworn,  was  called  as  a  witness  and  testified  as 

follows : 

HR.  TIEFER-   Mr.  tlulligan,  if  you  would  state  your 
name  and  address. 

THE  WITNESS:   David  Phillips  Mulligan,  4HM 

KR.  TIEFER:   ue  will  adjourn  your  deposition  until 
tomorrow. 

[Whereupon,  at  11:04  a.m.,  the  select  committee  was 
adjourned,  to  reconvene  at  1=00  p.m.  on  Tuesday,  February  3, 
1987.  1 


ONCUSSIflEB 


45 


KAHE:     HIR03t4002 


^msim 


RPTS  BOYUH 
DCHN  SPRADLING 
[1:00  p.n. ) 

MR.  TIEFER:   Kr .  Mulligan,  you  raoall  yest«tday  I 
introduced  nysoli  on  tha  record,  and  you  were  sworn  and  you 
gave  your  nana  and  address . 

THE  WITNESS:   Yas . 

MR.  TIEFER:   You  understand  that  you  are  still 
testifying  subject  to  that  oath. 

THE  HITKESS:   Yes. 

HR.  TIEFER:   And  that  tha  oath  requires  you  to 
testify  truthfully  subject  to  tha  penalty  of  perjury. 

THE  WITNESS:   Yes. 

EXAMINATION 

BY  MR.  TIEFER: 
Q   If  wa  could  go  through  your  background,  starting 
with  your  education  briefly,  and  what  jobs  you  held 
successively  after  you  graduated? 

A    I  was  born  and  raised  in  New  Britain,  Connecticut. 
I  attended  Darrow  School  in  New  Lebanon,  New  York,  Colgate 
Unlvttrsity  in  Hamilton,  New  York,  and  after  college  I 
obiminad  my  pilot's  licenses  and  in  1968  I  want  to  work  for 
Overseas  National  Airways  whose  headquarters  was  in  New 
York. 


UNClASSra 


46 


NAME: 
6U 
65 
66 
67 
68 
69 
70 
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HIR03X002   IflVUI  H.l.liriPIl       PAGE     (« 

I  worked  with  Overseas  iTational  until  1976,  in  1977 
I  joined  Air  Florida,  in  1978  I  became  the  Chief  Pilot,  in 
1979  I  becane  Staff  VP  of  Flight  Operations,  in  1980  1 
became  Corporate  VP,  Flight  Operations,  and  resigned  that 
position  on  19 — March  of  1984  to  join  Southern  Air  Transport 
as  Senior  Vice  President  of  Operations. 
Currently  X  hold  that  position. 

2    How  did  you  come  to  decide  to  come  to  Southern  Air 
Transport? 

A    I  had  known  on  a  personal  level  Bill  Langton  for 
five  years,  not  intimately  but  we  were  acquaintances  and 
Bill  joined  Southern  in  1983,  moved  to  Miami,  we  renewed  our 
relationship  and  he  a  number  of  times  had  asked  me  to  join 
the  company.   X  weighed  the  decision.  Air  Florida's 
financial  fortunes  did  not  look  altogether  too  promising  at 
that  time,  so  X  decided  to  take  him  up  on  his  offer  and  that 
was  six  months  prior  to  them  entering  into  Chapter  1 1 . 


UNCUSSIHED 


47 


UNCLASSIHED 


NAME-  HIR03'4002 

81  DCHN  HILTON 

82 

83  2    All  tight.   Do  you  cetain  currently  your  pilot's 

8>4  license? 

85  A    No.   I  still  have  a  valid  pilot's  license,  but  I  do 

86  not  naintain  ''currency-'' 

87  C    One  oi  the  prinary  purposes  o£    our  relatively  short 

88  deposition  today  is  going  to  be  to  show  you  a  lot  of 

89  docunents  and  to  try  to  identify  then.   They  have  been 

90  previously  produced  by  Southern  Air  Transport  to  the  House 

91  investigation. 

92  You  should  study  them  as  long  as  you  feel  the  need, 

93  but  you  may  find  that  you  are  not  going  to  be  questioned 
914  closely  on  each  line  of  them. 

95  .    A    All  right. 

96  .    2    I  show  you  documents  numbered  >419  through  1130,  and 

97  ask  you  if  you  recognize  the  type  of  form. 

98  A    U19,  this  is  an  accounting  form  that  goes  to  the 

99  CAB  or  DOT  now.   I  think  either  Finance  or  Bob  pSrson  puts 

100  this  together.   I'm  not  sura.   Finance  Department,  I  guess. 

101  I  don't  normally  deal  with  these  forms.   That  will  take  you 

102  all  tha  way  from  U19  through  ^30. 

103  .  ~  e    You  may  not  normally  deal  with  them.   Do  you  deal 
lOU  with  them  enough  to  understand  them? 

105  A    Z  think  I  am  intelligent  enough  to  read  it  and 


Mmm 


48 


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im 

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unijl«rstand  It  but  I  don't  d«al  anough — X  don't  avsn  daal  ulth 
th«B  at  all.  but  It  is  pratty  salf-axplanatoxy . 

e    I  nay  ask  you  If  you  ara  faniliar  with  soma  oi  tha 
flights  that  axa  idantlilad  on  It. 

A    Okay. 

e    Thay  happan  to  hava  bean  producad  in  ravaxsa 
chronological  ordar,  so  I  will  start  at  tha  back  and  coma 
forward.   That  saams  a  littla  odd. 

Paga  1428,  which  is  tha  earliar  shaat. 

A    Yes. 

2    On  Una  2U  there  is  a  notation  about  a  B-707 
flight. 

A    Yes. 

An     ^**^^^A 
A    Yes. 

S    Are  you  familiar  with  that  flight? 
A    Hhat  is  the  data  of  operation? 

fi    You  see  the  form  in  tha  upper  right  corner  with  a 
period,  ending  December  31,  1985. 

A    But  I  don't  hava  a  date  for  that. 

e    If  your  answer  is  that  without  a  specific  date  you 
would  not  be  familiar  with  the  flight,  then— 
.  ~  A    That  is  a  fair  statement. 
S    All  right. 

X  may  then  forego  the  rest  of  them  because  there 


Mussra 


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NAnE: 
131 
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mo 
mi 

1M2 
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lUM 

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me 
m? 
ms 

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uNcussm 


HIR03.002  UllUL/tUOiriLU  ""  ' 

aia.  no  dates  of  spsciiic  flights  on  any  of  then.   I  will  not 

mark  this  as  an  exhibit;  the  witness  did  not  recognize  then. 

I  shou  you  document  1783  and  178i4,  and  ask  you  if 
you  recognize  this  type  of  form. 

A    Yes,  our  standard  aircraft  log  for  the  707. 

Q    If  you  could  start  in  the  upper  left  corner  and 
work  your  way  through  explaining  what  each  block  of 
infornation  means,  it  is  not  so  much  the  particular  flight 
being  of  any  great  significance  as  to  explain  what  the 
columns  on  the  form  mean  generally. 

A    You  want  me  to  go  through  every  block? 

2    You  can  do  it  in  a  way  that  it  doesn't  take  a  long 
time,  that  would  be  fine. 

A    I  think  some  are  self-explanatory,  date,  type  of 
aircraft,  the  tail  number. 

Q    Let's  slow  down.   Do  you  know  what  the  date 
signifies  on  this  form? 

A    This  is  the  date  of  operation  for  this  particular 
flight,  or  flights  if  more  than  one  are  listed  on  the  log. 

2    And  the  aircraft  type? 

A    707. 

2    And  going  to  the  next  column,  what  is  that? 
.  '  A    That  is  the  registration  number  of  the  aircraft,  in 
this  case  November,  525  Sierra  Juliet. 

2    Who  provides  those  tail  numbers? 


UNCLASSIFIED 


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HIR03U002 


UNCUSSinED 


PAGE 


8 


-  A    They  axe  assigned  pexitanently  to  the  aircraft  by 
the  FAA. 

fi    Does  Southern  Air  Transport  register  each  aircraft? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  is  the  number  provided  when  registration 
occurs? 

A    Yes,  and  in  this  case  what  Southern  Air  Transport 
has  done  is  we  have  with  the  FAA  reserved  a  block  of  numbers 
so  they  are  sequentially  issued  at  our  request,  so  our  707s 
are  523,  S2U,    525>  if  we  put  additional  airplanes  on,  they 
will  be  526,  527.   So  we  have  a  block  of  numbers  reserved 
for  Southern  Air. 

fi    Are  you  familiar  with  the--even  in  a  general 
way — with  the  requirements  of  the  FAA  as  far  as  registration, 
what  must  be  registered  and  what  does  not  have  to  be 
registered? 

A    In  a  general  way. 

S    Is  Southern  Air  Transport  required  to  register  a 
plane  as  soon  as  it  purchases  the  plane  or  as  soon  as  it 
operates  the  plane  or  for  what  it  is  required  to  register 
the  plane? 

A    It  would  be  prior  to  operating  the  aircraft  the 
airplane  must  be  registered.   If  we  purchase  an  airplane  it 
does  not  necessarily  have  to  be  registered  by  U.S. 
registration. 


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181 

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UNCUSSIFIED 


HXR03U002       III1II.I    11  X  >l»>li*ll  PAGE  9 

As  an  axanple.  ii  ua    lalised  an  airplane  from  a 
fozalgn  country,  the  law  now  onables  us  to  operate  that 
airplane  with  a  foreign  registration  without  converting  it 
to  U.S.  registration,  providing  the  bilaterals  between  the 
two  countries  pernit  it. 

S    Do  you  have  to  register  a  plane  ii  you  are  not 
going  to  operate  it  within  the  United  States? 

A    Yes. 

C    But  will  operate  it  overseas? 

A    If  we  put  it  on  our  operations  specifications,  it 
has  to  be  registered  to  the  company.   Or  let  me  restate 
that;  that  is  not  exactly  the  case.   It  has  to  be  listed  in 
ouz  operations  specif icatiojis  but  the  airplane  can  still  be 
registered  to  a  third  party. 

fi    Once  you  register  a  plane  with  the  FAA,  what 
further  information  does  the  FAA  require  you  to  provide  as 
the  plane  is  being  operated?   Do  you  have  to  give  them 
information  on  each  flight  that  is  made? 

A    No. 

8    Do  you  have  to  make  periodic  reports? 

A    No. 

e    Do  you  have  to  do  anything  to  maintain  the  currency 
of  'the  registration? 

A    I  think  it  is  renewed  either  on  an  annual  or 
biannual  basis.   I  am  not  sure. 


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2m 

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BNCUSSIflfi) 


HAHE:     HIX03U002    .         IIIWl.l    f I  \  \  ILlL  11  PAGE  10 


.    .     e         And  — 

A    Thtt  reglstzation  does  expire  and  the  exact  term  oi 
it  I  an  not  sure.   I  can't  offhand  recall. 

2    Southern  Air  Transport  were  periodically — 

A    Renews  registrations. 

fi    Hho  within  Southern  Air  Transport  handles  that? 

A    Our  Engineering  Departnent  which  is  a  part  of 
naintenance . 

8    Continuing  on  with  the  fom  then,  reading  across  in 
the  upper  right  corner,  there  is  a  nunber. 

A    Yes. 

fi        Hhat   is    the   significance   of   that   nxinber? 

A    You  are  talking  ab,out  in  this  case  2526? 

8    Yes. 

A    That  is  a — that  identifies  that  particular  log  page 
nunber.  they  are  sequentially  going  to,  you  go  to  the  next 
one,  it  is  2527,  that  is  in  order  to  ensure  the  wholeness  of 
the  docunent  so  in  other  words,  from  a  maintenance 
standpoint,  you  can't — this  provides  there  will  be  no  missing 
pages.   In  other  words,  ii  the  page  is  used  for  maintenance 
only  and  does  not  reflect  a  flight,  it  will  be  written  on 
th«  page,  maintenance  only,  but  it  ensures  that  when  the 
doduaents  aza  turned  over  to  another  party,  that  they  are 
whole . 

fi        When  you   say   the   whole    doctiment,    what   is    the 


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HIR034002 


UNCUSSinED 


PAGE    n 


ralationship  of  sequential  pages  to  each  othet?   Is  it  the 
san*  aircraft,  the  sane  company,  the  same  day? 

A    No,  you  get  a--this  log  book  tepcesents  about  50 
pages  and  I  think  it  is  50  pages.   In  this  case  probably 
2501  to  2550  uere  issued  to  this  airplane.   Once  that  log 
book  is  used  up,  it  will  be  issued  another  log  book,  also  go 
sequentially  nunbared  pages,  but  not  necessarily  following 
in  this  order. 

2    Okay.   Let's  go  on.   We  go  back  to  the  left  side  of 
the  page.   Would  you  explain  the  boxes,  the  blocks  on  the 
left  side  of  the  page? 

A    We  have  captain's  nana,  initial,  employee  name > 
number,  his  signature. 

2    Those  can  you — can  you  tall  me  who  those  relate  to--I 
don't  mean  the  particular  person.   Will  it  be  one  person  who 
has  a  number  and  signature? 

A    No.  if  you  go  across,  captain's  name  is  first, 
followed  by  his  first  initial,  followed  by  his  company 
employee  number.   And  the  captain  is  required  to.  is  the 
only  one  required  to  sign  the  log  page.   That  is  his 
signature . 

li  you  continue  across  on  the  blanks  that  are  not 
filled  In,  ACn  stands  for  additional  craw  member,  last  name, 
initial,  employee  name  and  number.   Obviously,  in  this  case, 
up  on  those  lines  there  was  nobody  onboard.   You  go  down  to 


iimsim 


54 


UNCUSSIRED 


HAHE:     HIR03U002  ^^  •  « Wkf  I^Uf  1 1    ■■    ■■    PAGE  12 


256 

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tha-  next  line,  that  is  the  first  officer,  his  initial,  his 
enployee  number,  and  the  next  one  it  says  ACM.   In  this 
case.  HcDermott.  he  was  load  master  on  this  flight,  his 
employee  number,  and  then  ACMs  are  blank  there. 

Then  you  go  to  the  next  line,  that  is  the  flight 
engineer,  his  initial,  his  employee  number,  and  then  ACMs 
are  left  blank  because  those  constituted  the  only  people 
onboard  the  airplane. 

Q    Now,  can  you  explain  to  me  the  significance  of  the 
employee  numbers?   Who  assigns  them?   Are  they  reported  to 
the  Government  in  any  way? 

A    Ho,  they  are  employee  numbers.   Hhat  is  the  mystery 
with  that? 

S   Southern  Air  Transport  gives  each  employee  a 
number? 

A    Yes. 

2   Do  they  give  each  employee  a  number  whether  he  is  a 
person  who  flies  planes  or  not? 

A   All  employees  have  employee  numbers . 

S   And  they  don't — to  your  knowledge,  is  Southern  Air 
Transport  required  to  inform  FAA  of  who  its  employees  are 
and  what  the  numbers  are? 
.  "  A    Ho. 

S    Continuing  on  the  form,  where  it  says  ''flight 
number''  and  on  to  the  right,  if  you  explain  what  those 


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HIR03<4002 


blocks    are. 


UNCUssm 


PAGE  13 


K         ''Flight  number''  in  this  case,  the  nunber  assigned 
to  this  trip  was  525,  and  the  routing  is  from  Brownsville, 
Texas,  to  Lisbon.   ''Out''  means  the  time  it  blocked  out 
under  its  own  power;  ''ofi''  means  the  time  oi  lift-oif; 
''on''  means  the  time  of  landing,  and  ''in'*  means  the  time 
it  stopped  at  the  gate  or  wherever  it  parked. 

2    The  flight  number,  would  you  explain  the 
significance  of  that? 

A    In  this  case  it  appears  this  was  a  ferry  flight,  so 
for  flight  number,  we  just  assign  the  last,  the  tail  number 
of  the  airplane  becomes  the  flight  number  in  that  case. 

C    And  the  blocks  as  you  continue  along? 

A    Total  flight,  total  block,  the  flight  was  a 
duration  of  9.2  airborne,  that  is  wheels  ofi  to  wheels  on. 
The  block  time,  that  is  from  out  to  in,  was  9.6  hours. 

The  next  column,  it  says  LNDS,  with  the  C  and  F 
under  that  column,  with  a  line  through  the  F  indicates  that 
the  first  officer  made  the  landing. 

2    What  would  a  mark  in  the  other  column  be? 

A    Heans  the  captain  made  the  landing.   Fuel  added  in 
smllons  was  not  recorded  there,  but  I  would  have  to  presume 
the'y  added  iuel.   So  I  don't  know  why  they  didn't  add  it 
here  . 

The  next  one  is  fuel  onboard  in  pounds.   When  they 


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HIR03'<002     UIWIII  M.^.IIFIfcll      PAGE    1M 
blocked  out  of  Brownsville,  tKe"^TRd  138,000  pounds  of  fuel. 
Hhan  they  arrived  at  Lisbon,  they  had  29,000  pounds  of  fuel 
remaining.   They  added,  oil  added  to  the  various  engines, 
and  it  shows  that  there  was  no  oil  added.   That  is  about  all 
you  can  say  for  going  across  there. 

S2    Go  right  ahead  on  the  next  line  underneath. 

A    Mileage? 

e    Yes. 

A    Mileage  is  the  total  air  mileage  between 
Brownsville  and  Lisbon.   Renew  cargo  shows  no  entry,  so  it 
was  a  ferry  flight;  it  was  enpty. 

There  was  a  delay  out  of  Brownsville  for  seven 
hours  and  looKs  like  50  minutes  for  maintenance. 

fi   Could  we  slow  down?   On  revenue  cargo,  if  there  is 
a  number  in  there,  what  would  the  number  signify? 

A   Total  weight  of  the  freight. 

2    In  pounds? 

A    In  pounds . 

2   Okay.   You  were  saying  about  delay  length. 

A   There  was  a  delay  of  seven  hours,  50  minutes  for 
soa*  maintenance  reason.   It  doesn't  specify. 

fi   Skipping  down  to  the  lower  left  corner,  can  you 
exp'laln  what  each  of  the  entries  in  the  lower  left  corner 
signify? 

A   This  page,  et  cetera? 


uNCiASSire 


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HIR034002 


JNClASSra 


PAGE  15 


A    It  is  scratched  out  but  it  appaais  it  is  44,000, 
uhatavat.   That  was  total  time  that  had  been  ilown  o-n  that 
aircraft  prior  to  this  flight. 

Then  the  next  entry  is  9.2  and  if  you  look  up,  that 
corresponds  with  the  total  flight  up  above.   You  add  that  to 
the  44,000  and  odd  hours  and  that  gives  you  a  neu  total,  and 
it  gives  you  the  ability  to  correct  on  that  page  for 
arithmetical  mistakes . 

fi    And  in  the  lower  right  corner? 

A    Okay.   It  indicates  that  an  A  check  was  completed-- 

2    Is  that  a  particular  type  of  maintenance? 

A    Yes,  that  is  a  very  minor,  minor  check,  basically  a 
glorified  preflight  check. 

Q    Fine.   Let's  skip  the  rest  of  the  blocks.   If  you 
look  at  the  following  page,  page  1784,  and  just  look  at  the 
routing . 

A    Yes. 

e  Or  at  any  other  columns  helpful  to  you.  Is  this  a 
continuation  of  the  same  flight  of  the  same  aircraft?  That 
is  on  page  1783. 

A    Yes. 
.  '  fi    And  you  know  that  because? 

A  Two  reasons:  one,  the  dates,  it  is  the  next  date, 
and  the  sequence  of  the  log  page  numbers. 


UNCIASSIHED 


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NAHE 
356 
357 
358 

359 
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HZX03it002 


BHBJiSSinHI 


PACK    16 


e   Okay.   Do  you  also  hava  to  chaok  that  tha  tail 
nuabat  Is  tha  saaa? 

k        Yas.   You'would  do  that,  too.  sura. 

fi    Can  you  dasczlba  tha  coutlng  oi  this  naxt  illght  of 
tha  Sana  plana? 

A    Yas,  dapaztlng  Lisbon  and  want  to  Santa  Hazla  In 
tha  Azozas;  fzoa  tha  Azoras  want  to  Antigua;  Antigua,  It 
want  to  KOP--thay  had  a  mechanical.   It  Is  probably  Kingston. 

Q    How  do  you  know  it  is  a  machanlcal? 

A    Dava  just  ranindad  iia  wa  had  a  problaa.   I  forgot 
about  that. 

fi    Can  you  tall  anything  iron  what  is  writtan  thaza 
that  you  had  a  aaehanlcal?- 

A    Ko.   X  can't  saa  it  haza  unlass  I  a>  missing 
sonathing  obvious. 

fi    Don't  wozk  on  it.   Z  an  mostly  tzylng  to  undazstand 
tha  significanca  oi  each  block  oi  lattazs . 

FzoB  tha  ANU,  that  signiiias  Antigua? 

A    Yas. 

fi    Doas  tha  H^KP  signify  Kingston? 

A    Yas. 

fi   1£   you  would ■ contlnua  on  with  tha  illght. 

A  Pzoa  Kingston  thay  want  to,  looks  likaJ 
zecollaction  oi  that  flight  was  that  it  want  to 
tha  cozzact  daslgnatoz,  thzaa-lattaz  designator  ioz 


but  my 


UNCLASSIFIED 


NlHKi  HZtOSMOOa 
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38(( 
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387 
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395 
396 
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KOO 
U01 
■402 


wiASsra 


P»GK    17 


was^^^H  1   think  th«  or*M  didn't  know  It  and  thay 

up  wlth^^^^^^^^^^H.   Froa  ^^^^^^Hthay 
iarxlad  to  Bzounsvllla. 

e    Okay.   Who,  baioza  wa  gat  on  with  that,  who  fills 
out  this  fozB  and  uhan  do  thay  fill  it  out? 

A    Ganatally,  it  is  tha  copilot  fills  it  out,  and  tha 
flight  anginaar  will  naka  soiia  anttias.  and  tha  captain  will 
sign  it,  ganazally  spaaking. 

e    Is  ona  copy  mada  or  aota  than  ona  copy? 

A    No,  thaza  aza  about  thzaa  oz  fouz  copias. 

8    Hhar^  doas  aaoh  go? 

A    Tha  yalloH  copy  comas  to  OPS,  tha  pink  stays  in  tha 
book  with  tha  aizplana  foz  a  paziod  of  tiaa,  and  tha  whita 
gats  mallad  to  salntananca  oz  want  into  aalntananca.  Hiami 
malntananca . 

fi    Hhat  doas  OPS  do  uith  it,  and  what  do  you  mean  by 
OPS? 

A    Opazations.   ^ay  taka  tha  timas  off  tha  log  sheat 
to  vazify  that  thalz  antrlas  that  thay  raoozd  down  thaza  aza 
cozzact,  foz  bookkaaping. 

fi   Anything  alsa? 

A   Yas,  thay  stay  thaza  for  about  90  days. 


WNcwssife 


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U03 
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DCHN  PARKER 

fi    Do  they  make  copies  to  provide  to  anybody? 

A    Not  unless  somebody  requests  it.   Haintenance  has 
their  copies,  and  they  distribute  it.   Their  copies  within 
the  maintenance  organization,  planning  needs  them  ior 
records  and  quality  control  needs  them,  people  like  that, 
standard  housekeeping  chores. 

2    Do  any  copies  go  to  the  government? 

A    Ko. 

2    Does  the  government  ever  come  around  to  Inspect 
these? 

A    Yes. 

2    Under  what  circtimstances? 

A    Primarily  as  a  maintenance  function.   They  just 
check  to  see  if  you  are  maintaining  the  airport  in 
accordance  with  the  F ARs .   They  can  do  that  by  checking  log 
book  pages.   They  check  write-ups  and  sign-oiis  to  see  if 
there  are  proper  sign-off s  on  discrepancies,  things  of  that 
nature. 

They  check  to  see  if  you  have  not  overgone  any 
ohaok  Intervals . 

e    That  would  be  done  by  the  FAA? 

A    Yes,  maintenance  people  within  the  7AA  that  are 
assigned  to  us. 


Mussm 


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HAHE 
1*28 
(•29 
USO 
i<31 
t32 
1433 
1(34 
U35 
1436 
1437 
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(439 
14(40 
14m 
t4M2 
Mt43 
141414 
14(45 
14(46 
1447 
(4148 
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HIR03>4002 


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2    Hava  other  government  agencies  such  as  Customs  ever 
cone  around  to  inspect  Southern  Air  Transport  aircraft  for 
violations  that  you  know--logs  that  you  now? 

A  Aircraft  logs?  Hot  that  I  am  aware  of.  Not  to  say 
it  hasn't  happened,  but  I  don't  Know  what  they  would  get  out 
of  aircraft  logs. 

2    Is  the  information  entered  by  any  department  into 
data  processing? 

A    Yes,  record  keeping. 

2    Uhich  department  does  that? 

A    Our  data  processing  depaztnent  takes  the  master 
log,  takes  the  log  and  enters  it  in.   There  is  an  individual 
that  is  assigned  to  that  function. 

2    But  does  operations  provide  then  a  copy  from  which 
to  work  or  does  maintenance  provide  them  a  copy  from  which 
to  work?   Who  provides  the  copy  to  the  data  processing 
section? 

A    I  think  maintenance  provides  than  a  copy. 

2    And  is  all  the  information  put  on  computer  or  only 
soma? 

A    Just  soma  of  it.   Time  is,  names  of  crew  members. 

e    Is  tha  routing  put  on  data  processing? 

A   Yas. 

2    Do  you  know  hou  long  tha  information  Is  maintained 
on  data  processing? 


nfimim 


62 


'WfiUjJ/flfj 


KAHZ'  MIK03II002                 If  III  af  11  \  %.  ILf  ff   ffl      P^^GS         20 

**S3  •  ;     *        H®' 

i(5<<  8   Do  you  hav«  any  Idaa  whathar  it  is  box*  than  a  yaax 

<4S5  oz  lass  than  that? 

US6  A    I  don't  know. 

1(57  8    Okay.   Kow,  aza  you  iamiliaz  with  this  pazticulaz 

(458  flight  that  is  zacordad?   So  you  zacollact  it  oz  hava  soiia 

1*59  knowladga  of  it? 

M60  A    Soma  vagua  zacollaotion. 

(46  1  8    What  is  youz  zacollaotion? 

<462  A    Not  much — Z  zamambaz  that  ha  had,  aitaz  ha  got  out 

■463  of  Antigua  that  ha  had  a  pzoblam  zatzaoting  tha  gaaz,  and  Z 

*t6t  can't  zamambaz  whathaz  it  was  tha  nosa  gaaz  oz  whatavaz  tha 

<(65  pzoblam  was.  and  that  is  why  ha  did  go  into  Kingston,  and 

166  avidantly  got  tha  pzoblam  fixad  in  Kingston,  and  than 

<467  pzocaadad  on  to^^^^^^Band  was  abla  to  gat  full  at 

U68  ^^^^^^Hand  fazzy 

>t69  I  know  of  no  othaz  unusual  zacollaotions  about  tha 

«»70  flight. 

i|71  8   As  pazt  of  youz  supazvision  of  opazations.  aza  you 

>I72  awaza  what  oazgos.  ganazally  spaaklng,  aza  cazziad.  whathaz 

U73  thay  aza.  say.  hazazdous  oz  non-hazazdous? 

>(7it  A    Somatimas .  somatlmas  thay  aza  not.   Ha  hava  an 

>(75  awful  lot  of  flights  avazy  day.  and  thaza  aza  pzobably  a 

176  numbaz  of  flights  opazating  zight  now  that  has  hazazdous 

(477  matazial  on  tham.  but  I  am  not  awaza  of  it. 


cNMs/fe 


63 


KAHE 
U78 

U79 
>480 
U81 
1*82 
<I83 
M8(4 
M85 
M86 
1487 
488 
(t89 
1(90 
(491 
((92 
1(93 
U9i( 
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1(99 
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502 


HiRoauooa         iflBf .1  #l  %  Y|l  |r-||         page       21 

2    Thera  is  no  s'pTcff'l*  l£iaJ±orn  that  signifies  the 
natura  oi  the  cargo;  is  that  corract? 

A    Ho  . 

Q    Do  you  kaap  other  iorms--does  operations  keep  other 
forms  that  reflect  the  nature  of  the  cargo? 

A    Well,  on  international  flights  you  have  the 
shippers  export  documents.   You  will  have  HAZMAX  forms-- 

2    Slou  down.   You  are  using  shorthand  again. 
Shippers  export  documents. 

A    Yes,  SEDZ. 

2    Go  ahead,  the  other  ona? 

A    You  Hill  have  HAZMAT  approvals. 

e    Hhat  is  a  HAZHAT. 

A    I  don't  know  what  the  form  number  is,  but  it  is  a 
form  that  allows  you  to  go  on  if  you  are  doing  an 
international  operation. 

HR.  VAN  CLEVE:   Is  this  short  for  hazardous 
materials? 

THE  HZTNESS:   Yas . 

HR.  VAN  CLEVE:   This  is  probably  through  the 
Cowaazca  Department. 

THE  HITNESS:   It  is  FAA,  I  believe. 
BY  MR.  TIEFER! 

2    Hhat  other  forms  reflect  the  nature  of  the  cargo? 

A    The  cargo  manifests,  and  if  there  is  an  airway  bill 


ONCLASSIFIEO 


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KAHE: 

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PAGE    22 


to  .cover  the  freight. 

S   Which  oi  these — let's  go  back  to  each  shippers 
export  form.  Hho  in  Southern  Transport  prepares  that? 

A    It  depends  on  whose-- 

2    Which  department? 

A    In  some  cases  the  Sales  Departnent  handles  them. 
In  other  times.  Systems  Operations  has  handled  them. 

2    Which  is  your  department? 

A    Which  is  my  department.   One  of  my  departments.   It 
can  vary. 

Q   Can  you  explain  when  your  department  does  it  and 
another  department  does  it? 

A    In  the  case--that  is  a  pretty  good  question. 
BY  MR.  KIRSTZIN: 

2    Can  I  check  with  him? 
MR.  TIEFER:   Sure. 
BY  nR.  KIRSTEIH: 

2    The  shippers  export  document  would  only  relate  to  a 
flight  from  the  U.S.  to  somewhere,  so  it  wouldn't  have  been 
prepared  in  connection  with  a  flight  like  this. 

A    The  other  one  you  ask--who  does  it,  you  know,  that 
is  a  very  good  question,  because  there  have  been  times  when 
either  the  department  has  done  it  for  no  particular  reason 
that  I  can  recall,  and  I  don't  get  that  intimately  involved 
in  it,  in  my  little  area. 


UNCLASSIFIED 


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5m 

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HIR03U002 


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PAGE    23 


.  _   fi    Does  the  shipper  prepare  it  for  hinself  sonetime? 
A    Yas>  the  shipper  can  provide  a  lot  of  it. 

BY  HR.  TIEFER: 
C    I  won't  go  through  the  complete  routing  of  those 
documents.   Do  you  have  a  knowledge  of  whether  the  shippers 
export  document,  when  you  have  it  within  SAT,  is  put  m  data 
processing  ? 

A    It  probably  is  not.   I  can't  imagine  why  it  would. 
2    Then  there  is  a  hazardous  materials  form.   Who 

within  SAT  prepares  that? 

■«t»y 

A        Bob    Person   usually   handles    that. 

Oi 

Q  What  is  his  position? 

A  He'  is  director  of  systems  operations. 

8  So  he  works  under  you? 
A  Yes. 

9  And  is  that  form  put  on  data  processing? 
A  No. 

2  Cargo  manifests,  who  prepares  that? 

A  The  shipper. 

2  Does  a  copy  come  to  Southern  Air  Transport? 

A  Yes. 

fi  Who  keeps  it? 

.  -  A  He  Keep  a  copy  in  operations  for  about  90  days,  and 
then  dispose  of  it. 

2  And  the  airway  bill,  what  is  the  airway  bill?   What 


J 


UNCiASSire 


66 


UNcussro 


Hxni-  HiR03i4002     Ullul  Mai>ili  Ir  II  paqe      2M 


553 

ssn 

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5614 
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S7<4 
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is  it  for? 

A    I  aa  not  sales,  and  legally  I  don't  know  exactly 
what  it  is,  but — 

HR.  KIRSTEIN:   You  axe  the  witness. 
BY  MR.  TIEFER! 

e    Let  ne  explain  on  that  point.   There  may  be 
questions  where  someone  else  in  the  company  would  know  much 
better  than  you. 

A    Bob  Mason  would  know  that. 

2    No  doubt. 

A    Speciiically ,  what  an  airway  bill  and  the  legal 
requirements  for  it  are,  I  don't  know. 

2    Nevertheless,  I  may  ask  you  if  you  have  knowledge 
and  even  if  your  knowledge  is  much  less  than  anyone  else's, 
I  would  like  to  have  your  knowledge.   What  is  your  knowledge 
of  what  an  airway  bill  is? 

A    It  is  a  piece  of--a  form  that  accompanies  the 
freight  listing,  what  the  freight  is  and  the  numbers 
assigned  to  that  shipment,  and  I  guess  it  is  used  for 
tracking  purposes. 

fi    Down  where  that  goes  on  data  processing  within 
Southern  Air  Transport? 
.  ~  A    Ko.  I  don't  believe  it  does. 

fi    To  youx  Knowledge  is  there  any  form  kept  on  data 
processing  in  Southern  Air  Transport  which  records  the  name 


mmm 


67 


HIROaUOOZ 


UNGUSSIFIED 


PAGE     25 


NAME 

578  of -a  cargo  being  shipped? 

579  A    To  my  Knowledge,  no. 

580  S    Let's  leave  the  world  of  iotms. 

581  A    Good. 

582  2    And  cone  to  a  set  of  documents  that  were  produced 

583  to  us  in  the  nature  oi    an  Iran  iile .   We  will  take  thera  one 

584  by  one.   I  will  show  you  page  787  and  ask  you  if  you 

585  recognize  it. 

586  BY  HR.  KIRSTEIN: 

587  8    If  you  have  never  seen  it  before  that  is  an 

588  acceptable  answer. 

589  A    I  think  I  have  .   I  think  I  have. 

590  BY  HR.  TIEFER: 

591  fi    What  can  you  tell  me  about  it?   Not  deducing  it 

592  from  what  you  see,  but  your  sense  of  it  from  your 

593  recollection.   For  one  thing,  do  you  recognise  the 
59it  handwriting? 

595  A    Yes.   I  think  it  is.   I  believe  this  writing  is  Bob 

596  PoEtrson's. 

597  MR.  TIEFKR:   Let's  mark  the  previous  two  forms  that 

598  u*  discussed,  1783  and  178>4  as  Exhibit  1  in  this  deposition. 

599  [The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPK-1 

600  fox'  identification:  ] 
601 

602  xxxxxxxxxx  INSERT  1B-1  xxxxxxxxx/ 


UNCUSSiriED 


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...      THE  WITNESS :   The  only  problam  I  have  is  that  this 
foXB  has  no  date  on  it>  but  I  an — I  think  I  an  familiar  with 
this  piece  oi  paper. 

BY  HR.  TIEFER: 

e   Okay. 

A    Do  you  want  me  to  talk  away  at  it? 

e    Sure. 

A    I  don't  recall  the  dates  or  I  can't  even  vaguely 
pinpoint  it  right  now,  but  this  was  probably  used  in 
discussions  on  a  trip  that  I  had  up  to  Hashington  regarding 
these  exact  routings  that  were  shown  here. 


So  it  was  prepared  by  Bob  Poirson. 

Po'irson,  P-0-I-R-S-O-H. 

For  you  to  take  with  you? 

Yes. 

And  what  was  the  purpose  o£   preparing  it?   What  was 


2 
A 

e 

A 

S 
it  for? 

A   He  were  just  discussing  whether  we  could  indeed  fly 
these  trips,  whether  we  had  the  aircraft  available  within 
certain  windows  to  actually  complete  them  within  a  given 
time.   That  is  especially  for  the  707  and  the  Here.  The  L- 
100  Mas  just  an  exercise.   Z  don't  recall.   There  was  some 
discussion  about  using  a  Hero,  but  Z  think  the  price  was  too 
high. 

The  payload  was  too  low.   Zt  was  not  a  good  value. 


UNCUSSIHED 


69 


NAHE'     HIR03>4002 


UNCUSSIRED 


PAGE  27 


628 
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6314 
635 
636 
637 
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6U0 
61(1 
6142 
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6148 
6(49 
6S0 
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652 


.  _   fi    It  may  ba  usaful  b«iore  ua  go  through  all  thesa 
docuaants-- 

A    Tall  you  what,  I  have  a  battar  recollection  now.   I 
ranembaE  seeing  this,  but  this  is  not  a  form  that  I  used, 
not  a  trip  I  made.   I  think  it  was  some  other  people  made 
it,  now  that  I  think  about  it,  because  I  had  made  some  trips 
to  Washington  and  discussed  these  very  things,  but  not  with 
this  form  because,  as  I  recall,  I  did  mine  over  the  phone. 

C    All  right.   I  don't  want  to  90--excuse  me.   I  don't 
want  to  go  at  this  time  into  a  lot  of  detail  about  the  Iran 
flights,  but  since  we  will  be  showing  you  a  lot  of  Iran 
documents,  it  might  be  useful  if  I  asked  you  to  give  like  a 
3  to  5-minute  description  of  your  sequence  whan  you  learned 
that  there  were  going  to  be  such  flights,  what  your  part  was 
in  them,  not  to  gat  a  lot  of  detail,  but  so  the  documents 
will  make  some  sense. 

Each  document  is  not  a  coherent  chronology  of  the 


story . 
A 

2 

A 

e 

A 


Okay.   I  don't  have  a  John  Dean  maaory. 

Hall,  wa  can't  all  be  John  Daan.   Go  right  ahead. 

You  want  ma  to  give  you  the  3  to  5  now? 

Suza. 

Wall,  with  that  ptafaca,  I  an  vary  sketchy  on 


dates,  but  Bill  Langton,  our  President,  approached  me  about 
doing  soma  operations  into  Iran.   At  that  tine,  the  cargo 


iinmim 


70 


UNCLASSIHED 


NAHKi  HIt03il002   UlllJI_nULlll  II^U      PAGX    28 

653  uas  unspaolilttd.   M*  talkad  about  alzczait  routing >  how  ha 

65<4  could  do  lt>  and  at  a  lataz  data  shortly  tharaaitar  I  found 

655  tha  point  of  dapart'ura  was  Tal  Aviv,  which  was  a  littla 

656  parplaxing  in  trying  to  figura  out  how  wa  could  routa  tha 

657  aizplanas  in  thara  quiatly. 

658  Ha  caaa  up  with  a  basic  gana  plan  oi  down  through 

659  tha  Rad  Saa  and  up  on  in.   Sonatlma  aftar  that.  I  can't 

660  rananbar  how  long,  aayba  a  month  or  two,  it  kind  oi  diad  off 
66  1  and  than  it  caaa  back. 

662  Thara  was  Bora  discussion  on  it.   I  travalad  to 

663  Washington  for  tha  day  with  Bill  Langton  and  mat  with  Dick 
66i|  Gadd.   Furthar  discussions  on  tha  subjact — inolusiva,  but 

665  discussions'.   I  think  aitax  that,  I  aa  a  littla  skatohy 

666  hara.   Paul  Gilchrist  may  hava  travalad  to  Washington  to 

667  aaat  with  Dick  Gadd,  and  Dick  Saoord,  but  I  travalad  to 

668  Washington  with  Gilchrist  and  mat  with  Dick  Gadd  and  Dick 

669  Sacord  and  discussad  aora  datails,  and  Z  aa  sorry  to  adait  Z 

670  can't  reaaabar  whathar  wa  had  alraady — wa  had  not  flown  a 

671  trip  at  this  point,  but  wa  had  discussions  about] 

672  passports  at  that  tiaa,  who  would  ba  travaling. 

673  Thay  would  not  say  who  was  going  to  traval  at  that 
67it  point  in  tiaa,  although  wa  wara  lad  to  baliava  that 

675  Hcrarland  was  going  to  aaka  a  trip.   Ha  was  rafarzad  to  as 

676  Mr.  Good. 

677  Aftar  that  aaating  wa  discussad  airczaft  routings 


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and  times--hou  ue  could  acconnodata  it  because  we  had  a  real 
shortage  of  aircraft  availability  and  ue  had  to  jockey  our 
systen  around  in  order  to  acconnodate  the  trips  iron  the 
U.S.  into  Tel  Aviv  and  back. 

Ue  were  finally  able  to  do  that,  and  basically  that 
is  it  in  a  nut  shell. 

2    That  is  it  for  that  flight.   Here  there  more  than 
one  flight  to  Iran? 

A    Yes.  and  I  didn't  travel.   What  basically  happened 
is  I  kind  of  got  out  of  the  hoop  on  all  this  because  Paul 
was  flying  the  trips.   Paul  Gilchrist  was  flying  the  trips, 
and  it  was  a  weight  of  nanagement,  ny  tine,  to  be  intimately 
involved  because  he  was  going  to  be  doing  it  and  he  can 
represent  the  conpany  just  as  well  as  I  could  in  these 
discussions,  so  I  kind  of  got  out  of  it.  and  most  of  the 
discussions  were  between  Langton  and  Gilchrist,  to  Gadd  or 
mainly  to  Gadd.  I  guess. 

2    Let's  see  with  that  maybe  we  can  fit  the  documents 
in. 

The  document  that  is  page  787  came  up  at  what 
point? 

A    I  don't  recall.   This  was  on  a  trip  that  Gilchrist 
and"  Tootle  made  to  meet  with  Gadd.  and  I  don't  recall  the 
date  of  that. 

2    Has  it  in  pzepazatlon  fox  the  flight  that  you  just 


«MXs;fjffl 


72 


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703 
70H 
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71S 


dtts.czibad? 

X    It  may  hava  been.   Oz  it  nay  have  been  another  one. 
I  don't  recall. 

fi    Whose  writing  do  you  recognize  there? 
A    The  numbers  and  schedule  are  Bob  Poirson's  writing, 
and  the  names  down  here  in  the  lower  left,  that  is  in  Paul 
Gilchrist's  handwriting. 
2    Okay. 

HR.  TIEFER:   Let's  mark  page  787  as  Exhibit  2. 
[The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPn-2 
for  identification:  1 

xiicxxxxxxx)ir  INSERT  IB- 2  xxxxxxxxx/ 


DNtussm 


73 


NAHE:  HIR03U002 


UNCLASSIFIED 


PAGE     31 


716 
717 
7  18 
719 
720 
72  1 
722 
723 
72<4 
725 
726 
727 
728 
729 
730 
731 


.  .       BY  MR.  TIEFER: 

C    I  show  you  pages  788,  and  789  and  ask  you  if  you 
tttcognize  them? 

A    788  I  can't  even  read.   No,  I  don't  recognize  that, 
e    All  right.   page  789? 
A    Yes,  I  recognize  789. 

2    Can  you  describe,  identify  it,  explain  what  it  is? 
A    This  was  a  list  that  was  prepared  by  Bob  Poirson 
for  Paul  on  questions  that  he  wanted  answered  on  one  of  his 
trips  to  Washington,  but  I  don't  recall  which  trip. 

KR.  TIEFER:   Let's  nark  page  789  as  the  next 
exhibit. 

[T>ie  following  docunent  was  narked  as  Exhibit  OPn-3 
for  identification:] 

xxxxxcxxxxx  INSERT  1B-3   xxxxxxxxx/ 


UNCUSSinED 


74 


HAME  •• 
732 
733 
731* 
735 
736 
737 
738 
739 
7140 
741 
7««2 
7U3 
71*4 
71*5 
746 
747 
748 
749 
750 
751 
752 
753 
754 
755 
756 


HIR034002 


UNOASSIFIED 


PAGE    32 


BY  HR.  TIEFER: 


fi    I  show  you  pages  818  thorugh  821  and  ask  you  i£   you 
can  identify  these.' 

A    Yes.   I  believe  this  represents  Paul's  notes  on  his 
first  trip>  I  believe,  first  trip  to  Tel  Aviv  and  then  on. 
That  is  all  I  know. 

e    Do  you  know  what  was  done  with  these  after  he 
prepared  these? 

A    He  prepared  these  on  ATC  in  our  office  himself,  and 
gave  a  copy  to--let  me  read  it  and  then  give  a  copy  to  Bill 
Langton,  and  then  I  don't  know  what  happened  to  them 
thereafter . 

2    Here  they  ever  prepared  in  a  less  rough  form>  ever 
redone? 

A    He  thought  this  was  pretty  rough.   I  an  sure —   I 
don't  know.   I  don't  want  to  speak  fox  Paul. 

2    You  have  no  knowledge  of  any  other  version  being 
prepared  ? 

A    Ko. 

HR.  TIEFER:   Let's  mark  page  818  through  821  as 
Exhibit  4. 

(The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPH-4 
for  identification:  ] 

xxxxxDcKxxx  INSERT  1B-4  xxxxxxxxx/ 


m&m& 


75 


HAKE 
757 
758 
759 
760 
761 
762 
763 
7614 
765 
766 
767 
768 
769 
770 
771 
772 
773 
774 
775 
776 
777 
778 
779 
780 
781 


HIR03M002 


(INCUSSIFIED 


PAGE    33 


.  .       BY  HR.  TIEFER: 

Q    I  show  you  page  822.   Do  you  recogniza  it? 

A    No. 

Q    I  show  you  paga  823.   Do  you  racogniza  that? 

A    Unless-- 

C    I  don't  mean  to  rush  you. 

A    Well,  unless  822  may  be  the  and  of  Paul's  report--! 
think  he  made  some  racomnandations ,  didn't  he? 

S    All  right.   On  that  basis,  let's  make  page  822  a 
iinal  paga  to  the  exhibit  previously  marked.   That  will  be 
part  of  Exhibit  U ,  DPH-!4. 

Is  it  possible  that  page  823  is  part  of  the  sane 
document;  perhaps  not?   Do  you  recognize  page  823? 

A    Ko ,  but  you  want  speculation? 

S    No,  I  don't  want  speculation,  but  if  you  have  a 
basis  for  recognizing  it,  I  would  be  interested. 

A    X  wouldn't  think  it  would  be  part  of  his  report, 
although  it  is  a  map  of  that  area,  and  you  see  these  numbers 
written  in,  those  are  probably  wind  velocity  and  direction 
and  temperatures  at  altitude. 

S    You  ware  not  familiar  with  this,  so  I  won't  make  it 
an  exhibit. 

I  will  ask  you  if  you  recognize  page  830. 

A    Ko. 

2    I  will  ask  you  if  you  recognize  pages  831,  to  83U. 


UNCIASSIRED 


76 


NAnE  = 
782 
783 

7814 
785 
786 
787 
788 
789 
790 
791 
792 
793 
7914 
795 
796 
797 
798 
799 
800 
801 
802 
803 
80^ 
805 
806 


HIR0314002 


PGIASSIHED 


PAGE    314 


fi    Do  you  recognize  pages  83H   and  83i4B? 

A    KO/  it  is  a'  standard  form  we  send  out  on  most 
charter  flights,  but  I  have  not  seen  this  one.   I  mean,  I 
have   no  need  to  have  seen  it.   I  haven't  seen  either  one  of 
these.   These  are  nuts  and  bolts  things  that  I  don't  get 
involved  with. 

S    I  understand.   From  your  knowledge  of  the  way  this 
matter  was  run,  is  it  likely  that  Paul  Gilchrist  would  be 
familiar  with  these  particular  documents? 

A    He  might  have  seen  them,  he  might  not  have. 

S    I  show  you  a  series  of  documents  from  1760  through 
1777,  and  a&k  you  if  you  have  seen  these. 

A    He  can  give  you  some  numbers.   I  saw  1762. 

S    If  you  will  do  it  that  way,  why  don't  you  read  the 
name  on  each  form  where  you  know — saw  the  form? 

A    Frank  Bell's  secrecy  oath. 

e    Okay. 

A    17614,  David  P.  Mulligan's  secrecy  oath.   Those  are 
the  only  ones  I  have  seen. 

9    Is  there  a  way  you  can  give  an  explanation  as  to 
why  you  saw  two  in  particular,  and  not  the  rest? 

.  ~  A    One  was  mine.   The  other  one  was  Frank  Bell's  who 
is  our  manager  of  crew  scheduling,  and  I  had  him  sign  it. 
He  really  had  no  knowledge  of  what  was  going  on,  but  in  case 


UNCIASSIFIED 


77 


NAME:  HIR03'4002 
807 
808 
809 
810 
811 
812 
813 
811 
815 
816 
817 
818 
819 
820 
821 


CNcussife 


PAGE    35 
ha  did,  sutnisa  what  was  going  on.   Ha  was  now  sworn  to 
saoracy,  but  he  really  didn't  have  any  idea. 

Q    Can  you  explain  the  background  around  which  you 
caaa  to  sign  such  a  forii? 

A    I  think  Bill  Langton  asked  ne  to  sign  it. 

At  what  point  in  this  natter  did  that  occur? 
I  can't  avan  renamber. 

Has  it  before  the  flight  took  place  or  after? 
I  can't  even  remaabaz. 

HR.  TIEFER:   Let's  nark  the  two,  1762  and  176M,  the 
two  you  recognized  as  the  next  exhibit. 

[The  following  docunant  was  narked  as  Exhibit  DPH-S 
for  idantifrication:  ] 

xxxxxxxxxx  XHSERI  1B-5  xxxxxxxxx/ 


UNOASSIHED 


78 


XAHZi 
822 
823 
821) 
825 
826 
827 
828 
829 
830 
831 
832 
833 
83i( 
835 
836 
837 
838 
839 
8M0 
8il1 
8M2 
8143 
8^>l 
8i|5 
8X6 


HZ»03U002 


DCIfK   SIEVKNS 


BNCUJSIfe 


P&GK         36 


BY    HR.     TZEFKK: 

9    I  will  show-  you  a  pa9*>  731,  which  has  a  nujtbar  oi 
naaas  and  boxas  sozt  of  on  a  ttaa,  you  aza  not  familiar  with 
that,  you  hava  not  saan  this  paga  bafoza,  hava  you? 

k    No. 

fi    But  you  zacogniza  sona  of  tha  nanas? 

A    Yas. 

fi    Can  you  say  which  naaas  you  taeogniza  and  whathaz 
thay  wozk — whathaz  thay  hava  wozkad  at  any  tima  at  Southazn 
llr  Tzanspozt? 

A    I  zacogniza  Hilliaa  Coopaz — 

e    AncI  ioz  aach  ona.  ii  you  would  say  a  littla  about 
whan  you  baliavad  thay  wozkad  at  Southazn  Alz  Tzanspozt? 

A    Coopaz,  to  ay  knowladga,  navaz  wozkad  at  Southazn 
Aiz. 

B    Hhat  do  you  zacogniza  hiit  fzon? 

A    Ha  was  coozdinating  tha  aaintananca  activitias  ioz 
tha  C-123S  and  tha  C-7s  as  thay  caaa  thzough  Hiani  haading 
south.   That  is  my  association  with  Coopaz. 

wozkad  ioz  us  and  Z  guass  ha  want  down 
south  and  did  soma  maintananca  ioz  tham  down  thaza.   Ha 
works  foz  us  now. 

I  knaw  him  basically  in  tha  sama 
capacity  as  Coopaz,  actually  wozking  ioz  Coopaz  coozdinating 


mm^^ 


79 


Ntnzi 

847 
8<48 
8>49 
850 
851 
852 
853 
854 
855 
856 
857 
858 
859 
860 

86  1 
862 
863 
8614 
865 
866 
867 
868 
869 
870 

87  1 


HIR03M002  lllllil  U.^Airil*ll        PtGS    37 
th<  aainttnanoa  aiatlvltlas,  puxohasas,  things  lik*  that. 

9    Did  h«  avar  woiK  for  Southain  Air  Transport? 

*    No. 

ha  ilaw  as  a  craw  nanbar  for  us  and  than 
was  on  a  laava  of  absanoa.   Ma  was  not  working  for  us  during 
tha  parlod  down  thara. 

I  aat  onca  or  twlca.   I  Knaw  hlii  only  as 
a  pilot.   Ha  navar  workad  for  us. 

Sawyar  had  workad  for  Southarn  Air  as  a  pilot. 
During  this  parlod  of  tlma  ha  was  not  anployad  by  Southarn 
Air. 

I  racognlza  no  othar  naaas  on  that  list.   I  saa  an 
^^^^■hara',  tha  nana  is  vagualy  faalllar  to  aa  as  ona  of 
our  aachanlcs.  but  I  don't  know  hla  and  I  don't  know  what 
his  status  was. 

S  ^^^^^Hyou  ballava  workad  for  Southarn  Air 
Transport? 

A    I  don't  want  to  say. 

fi    No  ona  alsa  on  tha  list  you  xacall  as  having  workad 
for  Southarn  Air  Transport? 

A    No. 

fi    Hlth  raspaot  to  Ht .  Sauyar.  do  you  know  how  ha  cama 
to  laava  Southarn  Air  Transport  and  ba  aaployad  by  tha 
oparatlon  in  Cantral  Aaarlca.  If  you  undarstand  what  I  maan 
by  tha  oparatlon  In  Cantral  Anarlca? 


UNCIASHD 


80 


NAME  I 
872 
873 

874 
875 
876 
877 
878 
879 
880 
881 
882 
883 
88U 
885 
886 
887 
888 
889 
890 
89  1 
892 
893 
894 
895 
896 


HI]103>(002 


UNCUSSffi 


PAGI         38 


i   Y«t.   Ko.   I  don't  know  how  that  happansd. 
S   With  zaspact  ^^i^^^^^^^^V  ^^   ^^^  >^o>'  ^^*'   ^*  cana 
to  laava  Southazn  -Alz  Tzanspozt? 
A    No. 


No. 


Do  you  avan  zenambaz  thasa  paopla  laaving? 
I  zanambaz-- 

HR.  KIRSTEIN:   I  Don't  think  his  tastlaony  was  that 
avaz  laft  tha  anploy  of  Southazn  Alz. 
THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  zanambaz  how  that  was 
handlad.   I  think  ha  was  just  tzansfazzad  down  thaza  oz  what 
tha  status  was.   Ha  Is  still  with  us.   I  zamaabaz  Sauyaz  and 
^laaving . 

BY  m.    TIEFER) 
e    You  do? 
A    Yas. 

e    What  do  you  zaitasbaz  about  thaa  laaving? 
A    Thay  laft.   I  itaan.  nothing  zanazkabla  about  that. 
Thay  laft. 

S    Did  anyona  know  whaza  thay  had  gona? 
A   No — wall,  you  pzasuna  thay  waza  down  thaza,  yes. 
.  '  2    On  what  basis  did  you  pzasuna  that? 

A    You  knaw  sonathing  was  going  on  down  thaza  and  thay 
indlcatad  to  a  faw  paopla  whaza  I  got  it  sacond  hand  that 


UNCUSSIHED 


81 


iiNcujsro 


KAKE:  HIR03M002   ^  ■  « ^^bf  ItJLill  II  II        PAGE    39 

897  tha.t  is  whars  thay  wera  and  that  is  whara  thay  wantad  to  be. 

898  fi    How,  had  Sawyer  as  a  pilot  worked  under  you,  that 

899  is,  was  ha  one  of  the  subordinates  of  yourself? 

900  .    A    Well,  indirectly  through  the  chief  pilots  and  vice 

901  president,  flight  operations. 

902  2    I  don't  know  whether  you  developed  an  impression  or 
•  903  not,  did  you  have  any  feeling  whan  one  of  your  people  left 

9014  to  do  something  else? 

905  A    In  Buzz'  case,  I  thought  that  given  the 

906  circumstances  it  was  a  natural  thing  for  him  to  do. 

907  2    And  why  did  you  feel  that? 

908  A    Because  I  have  always  viewed  Buzz  as  a  soldier  of 

909  fortune  type. 

910  e   Has  there  something  in  his  background  that  you  knew 

911  that  made  you  view  him  as  a  soldier  of  fortune  type? 

912  A    Ho.   nothing  specifically.   There  wera  just  an  aura 
9  13  about  Buzz. 

9  It  S    Although  you  have  said  that  you  did  not  recognize 

915  this  particular  place  of  paper,  a  number  of  names  have  been 

916  taken  from  it.  let's  market  it  as  the  next  exhibit.  731  will 

917  b«  tha  next  one. 

918  [Tha  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPn-6 
9  19  for  identification:  1 

920 

921  xxxxxxxxxx  IKSERT  2-1  xxxxxxxxx/ 


UNCLASSIHED 


82 


NAnE  = 
922 
923 
92M 
925 
926 
927 
928 
929 
930 
931 
932 
933 
93U 
935 
936 
937 
938 
939 
940 
941 
942 
943 
944 
945 
946 


HIR034002 


UNCUSSIFIED 


PAGE    40 


BY  MR.  TIEFER! 

2   Charter  quotations  by  Southern  Air  Transport  are  or 
are  not  handled  in  your  department? 

A    Not  handled. 

Q    In  whose  department  are  they  handled? 

A    Sales . 

2    I  show  you  a  document,  a  series  of  documents  irom 
1148  to  1159,  I  may  90  through  them  one  by  one.   The  top 
one,  first,  page  1147  and  1148. 

A    This  is  it? 

2    That  is  it. 

MR.  KIKSTEIK:   It  is  the  back  of  a  file. 
BY  MR.  TIEFER: 

2    Let  me  ask  you  if  it  assists  you  in  understanding 
it  that  my  understanding  is  thatthose  are  the  front  and  back 
covers  of  a  file. 

A    Yes,  now  that  I  see  this  one,  I  recognize  this. 

2    Mould  you  explain  what  the  file  is? 

A    I  had  a  very  thin  file  that  I  labeled  innocuously 
as  ''charter''  and  that  was  the  cover  of  the  file,  my  front 
cover.   This  must  have  been  on  the  back  cover.   It  says  the 
back  cover,  so  I  have  to  say  it  was  there. 

.  '  S   Can  you  tell  the  circumstances  under  which  you 
started  to  keep  such  a  file? 

A    Yes.   Your  dates.   Bill  Langton  told  me  that  Dick 


I 


UNCIASSIHED 


83 


HAHE 

947 
9X8 
9U9 
950 
951 
952 
953 
954 
955 
956 
957 
958 
959 
960 
961 
962 
963 
964 
965 
966 
967 
968 
969 
970 
971 


HZR034002 


UNCLASSIFIED 


PAGE    41 


Gadd  had  a  sciias  of  trips  In  order  to  nova  sona  cargo,  it 
was  not  sp«cliic  what  tha  cargo  was.  but  it  was  sansitivra  m 
nature  is  what  I  was  led  to  believe  or  actually  told,  iron 
^^^^^H  to  Central  Araarica,  destination  unspecified  at  that 
point . 

Ue  at  that  tima  did  not  operate  707  aircraft  and  it 
had  to  be  done  with  a  jat  airplane  because  of  the  payload 
and  I  think  Bill  had  originally  quoted  Gadd  using  the  Here, 
but  the  price  was  astrononical  because  it  could  carry  only 
about  half,  so  it  was  not  good  acononics . 

Bill  asked  ma  to  naka  sub-sarvica  arranganants > 
actually  broker  the  trip  out.   So  I  handled  that  and  became 
tha  point  o'f  contact  with  Dick  Gadd  on  these  trips,  and  I 
contracted  with  Arrow  Air  to  do  two  trips  and  I  don't  know 
whether  this  file--as  I  recall,  I  don't  have  any  notes  from 
the  second  trip.  I  think  these  all  pertained  to  the  first 
trip,  but  we  did  two  sub-service  with  Arrow  Air. 

X  think  one  was  in  January,  early  January.   I  am 
not  sure  exactly.   I  think  the  other  one  in  February  or 
narch. 

fi    Did  you  normally  handle  sub-charters? 
A    No.   Ha  wanted--this  was  considered  to  be  very 
san'^itiva  in  nature  and  I  think  that  Bill  Langton  and  myself 
were  tha  only  two  people  in  tha  company  that  ware  aware  of 
these  trips  and  people  may  have  had  an  inkling  of  what  was 


UNCLASSIFIED 


84 


RIR03il002 


UNCUSSIFIED 


PAGE    HZ 


NAKK> 

972  going  on.  but  Z  think  w«  woxa  th*  only  two — I  can't  suaax  to 

973  that,  but  Z  ballava  h*  waxa,  thaxa  may  hava  baan  somabody 
97>4  alsa,  but  Z  didn't 'tall  anybody  alsa.  although  1   may  hava 

975  gottan  Bob  Poitson  involvad  with  a  littla  bit  oi  paziphaxy 

976  information  just  to  halp  with  soma  oi  tha  azzangamants  ioz 

977  Atzow.   Z  can't  zacall. 

978  But  in  satting  him  up,  Z  nagotiatad  tha  pzica  with 

979  Azzow  and  nagotiatad  tha  schadula,  and  Bill  Langto^ 

980  nagotiatad  tha  pzica  with  Gadd. 

981  S    Did  you  talk  to  Gadd  at  all? 

982  A    Oh,  yas,  Z  had  a  lot  of  oonvazsations  with  Gadd. 

983  e    Did  you  talk  to  anyona  alsa  wozking  foz  Gadd? 
98U       A    Pzioz  to  going  or  aftaz  thay  want  or — 7 

985  e   Start  with  prior. 

986  A    Prior,  no.   Tha  arrangamants  initially  wara  all 

987  with  Gadd.   Thay  oparatad  on  tha  waakands  and  tha  first  trip 

988  was  dalayad  wall  ovar  2i|  hours ^^^^^^^Hdua  to  tha  fact 

989  that  tha  fzaight  was  lata,  tha  fraight  was  coming — Z  was  lad 

990  to  baliava  tha  fraight  was  coming  fl^H|H|^Hand  it  was 
coming  in  on  ^^^^^^^^^^^|  and^^^^^^^^waselosad  dua  to  a 

992  snow  storm. 

993  Hhila  wa  wara  axparianoing  this  dalay.  Arrow 

99M  obviously  was  quita  upsat  baeausa  thay  had  othar  things  for 

995  thair  airplana  to  do,  tha  customar  was  upsat  and  Dick  was 

996  fzuitlassly  going  through  Dick  Gadd  in  Washington  baeausa  ha 


UNCUSSIFIED 


85 


NkHIi 
997 
998 
999 
1000 
1001 
1002 
1003 
lOOM 
1005 
1006 
1007 
1008 
1009 
1010 
101  1 
1012 
1013 
101(t 
1015 
1016 
1017 
1018 
1019 
1020 
1021 


UNCUSSIHED 


HIX03I4002    UllllLflllllirir  II      ft^^t         U3 
oooildn't  9lva  ■•  any  Iniocaation  so  what  happanad  is  tha 
cowiunloatlons  link  Instaad  oi  using  OloK  as  tha  point  9uy> 
I  stattad  daallng  dliactly  ulth  a  contact  ovar  thara  and  tha 
guy's  nana  was  Tom  Cllnas,  or  Cllnas.  I  an  not  sura.   And  I 
talkad  to  hln  a  nunhar  oi  tlaas  ovar  tha  waakand,  whan  It  Is 
going  to  ba  raady>  at  catara.  at  catara.  at  catara. 

Thara  was  an  outiit  ovar  thara  also  calling  through 
trying  to  gat  iniornatlon,  just  iniornation.  a  conpany 
callad  ''Daiects''>  and  thara  wara  soma  othar  paopla  whosa 
nanas  do  not  raadily  cona  to  mind,  but  thay  ara  in  tha  notas 
probably. 

And  I  nay  coniusa — thara  wara  two  trips  and  thay 
both  had  problans  so  Z  nay.  gat  soaa  oi  tha  datalls — 

fi   Tha  January  and  tlarch  trips  you  naan? 

A    Thay  both  wara  scrawad  up.   Tha  trip  in  Harch,  tha 
custonar  wantad  a  naxinun  anount  oi  payload  capacity.   It  is 
high  density  iraight,  doas  not  taKa  up  a  lot  oi  voluna.   In 
ordar — tha  airplana  that  thay — that  Arrow  usad  was  a  stretch 
DC-8  that  had  18  pallet  positions.   The  ireight  could  be 
spread  over  13  pallet  positions,  so  in  order  to  conserve 
weight,  I  told  Arrow  only  ship  13  pallets,  don't  ship  18. 
you  can  save  iive  tines  250  and  that  can  convert  to  payload. 

Aiter  being  told  unpty-unp  tines  only  to  take  13 
pallets  when  they  got  ^^^^^^^|  there  were  no  pallets. 
They  totally  blew  it  and  they  were  late  getting  there,  too. 


UNCLASSIFIED 


86 


UNCLASSIFIED 


N&HSi  KZK03il002    VIlVkTIUUII  IkM      ^'^^^        **** 

1022  .  -  I  forgot  how  lata  thay  waia.   So  It  was  a  zaal 

1023  ilaaoo,  with  Azrow  trying  to  gat  pallats 
102<4  Thalr  oradlt  was  not  vary  good;  thay  had  to  hand 

dalivar  a       to|^^|^^^^H^^^H|^H  oiilca  In  Kew 

1026  to  buy  pallats  im^  than  and  as  soon  as  thay  had  tha  nonay 

1027  in  hand,  tha  Maw  York  ofiica  told^^H^^^HHI  to  ralaasa 

1028  tha  anpty  pallats  to  than,  bacausa  you  can't  load  dizactly 

1029  on  tha  floor. 

1030  In  tha  naantina,  I  aa  talking  back  and  forth  with 

1031  Ton  Cllnas  again  and  ha  is  aad  as  a  wat  han.   Ha  is  saying 

1032  ha  is  gatting  all  sorts  of  prassura  from  Saoord.  and  X  had 

1033  not  prior  to  that  nat  Sacord,  but  ha  told  u»   that  ha  was  an 
103*1  axtranaly  impatiant  guy  and-  would  not  tolarata  anything  but 

1035  parfaotion  and  that  this  was  unaooaptabla.  and  Z  said  what 

1036  tha  hall  aa  Z  supposad  to  do  about  it? 

1037  You  know,  and  also  sonawhara  in  thasa#  I  had  ona  or 

1038  two  convarsatlons  and  X  can't  ranaabar  tha  datails  of  aithar 

1039  convarsation  with  this  Xlbart  Hakla  and  Z  think  that  was  for 
lOUO  halping  with  soaa  docxmantation  on  tha  trips,  but  Z  an  vary 
lOm  vagua  on  it,  vary,  vary  vagua  at  that,  on  that. 

10<«2  fi    You  wara  making  all  thasa  calls  froa  your  offica 

10H3  h«x«7 

lOUU  .  ~  A    Xo,  iroa  ay  hoaa  aostly. 

1045  fi    Why  froa  your  hoaa? 

1046  A   It  was  tha  waakand. 


iimsim 


87 


HIR0314002 


UNClASSre 


PAGE  us 


NAME: 

1047  .  .      How,  the  calls  that  lad  up  to,  for  the  ariangenents 

lOUS  and  Avarything  else,  were  done  during  the  week  irom  my 

10U9  oifice,  but  when  everything  went  to  hell  in  a  hand  basket, 

1050  it  was  over  the  weekend,  so  most  of  the  calls  were  from  my 

105  1  home . 

1052  S    Okay. 

1053  A    Most  of  the  arrangements  were  done  from  the  office. 
lOSU  C    You  had  not  known  Secord  before? 

1055  A    No. 

1056  e    You  had  not  known  Hakim  before? 

1057  A    I  don't  know  Hakim.   I  only  talked  to  him  once  or 

1058  twice. 

1059  2    Have  you  met  Clines  before? 

1060  A    I  had  never  met  Tom. 

1061  e    You  had  known  Gadd  before? 

1062  A    Yes. 

1063  S   What  was  the  context  in  which  you  had  known  him? 

1064  A    He  had  a  business  relationship  with  him  where  he 

1065  was  providing,  I  guess-- 

1066  fi   tet  ma  say,  we  have  had  previous  information  that 

1067  nay  have  b«en--his  contract  may  have  been  of  a  sensitive 

1068  natuza  and  wa  don't  want  to  go  into  it  if  it  is  of  a 

1069  sansitlva  nature. 

1070  A    It  is  of  a  sensitive  nature. 

1071  Q    Let's  leave  it  at  that. 


UNCLASffD 


88 


NiHK> 
1072 
1073 
107U 
1075 
1076 
1077 
1078 
1079 
1080 
1081 
1082 
1083 
108M 
1085 
1086 
1087 
1088 
1089 
1090 
1091 
1092 
1093 
10914 
1095 
1096 


UNClASSra 


HZX03II002   llllil.l  U.^.lll  II  U       PAGX    U6 
A   But  this  is  oi  sansltlva  natux*.  too. 
HR.  KXRSTEIN:   It  Is  a  dliiarant  kind. 
IHE  HITHESS!   I  know,  but  I  just  want  to  bring  a 
llttla  lavity  to  this. 
BY  HR.  TIEFERs 
Q    Had  your  contact  with  Gadd  only  been  In  the  context 
oi   that  sensitive  contract  that  ha  had? 
A    Yes,  and  support  thereof, 
fi   Do  you  know  what  the  cargo  was  that  was  I 


X   I  guess  It  would  be  speculation.   I  don't  think  I 
was  ever  definitely  told  that  it  was--Dick  always  referred  to 
it  as  pineapples  or  things  like  that,  but,  you  know — 

fi   When  he  said  that,  did  you  know  for  a  fact  ox  have 
a  very  stxong  suspicion  that  it  was  not  pineapples? 

A    I  knew  it  was  not  pineapples. 

e    Old  you  now  it  was  hazardous  aaterial? 

A    I  think  I  did. 
Yes,  I  did,  yes. 

S   In  the  course  of  your  conversations  with  these 
vaxious  people,  did  you  have  an  impression  whether  they  had 
previously  shipped  such  material? 
.  ~  A   Mo.   I  had  no  impression. 

fi   Old  the  way  they  were  making  arrangements  give  you 
any  impression  as  to  whether  they  wexe  declaxing  to  the 


iiNcussm 


89 


■».. " 


ONCLASSIHED 


Hinti  RIt03<400a    VllVkllWII  ■kl'      PAGX    147 

1097  goyatnBcnts  Involved  along  th«  May  on  this  trip  axaotly  what 

1098  thay  war*  shipping? 

1099  A    Tha  Imptasslon  I  got  was  that  It  was  graasad  at 

1100  ^^^^^^1  and  at  tha  and,  at  tha  dastlnatlon,  but  nothing  was 
110  1  dona  In  batwaan.   Thay  wata  just  transits. 

1102  fi    And  li  you  can  tall  what  It  was  that  gava  you  that 

1103  luprasslon. 

110<(  K        I  just  think  tha  way  tha  whola  thing  was  handlad. 

1105  Uhan  you  hava  a^^^^^^Bdilrplana  coning  Into  tha  largast 

1106  civil  airport  In  tha  country  and  you  ara  trans-loading  90- 

1107  odd-thousand  pounds  of  fralght.  you  hava  got  ground  handlazs 

1108  Involvad,  you  hava  got  OEFEX  handling  papar  work  and  things 

1109  of  that  nat'ura,  you  hava  C),lnas  ovax  thara  and  It  lad  na  to 

1110  ballava  that  it  was  ollad. 

nil  I  can't  spacliloally  say  that  It  was,  but  tha 

1112  Imprasslon  certainly  was  thara. 

1113  fi    And  did  you  form  an  laprasslon  at  tha  tlaa  as  to 
111<«  who  tha  ultimata  customar  fox  this  was? 

1115  A    It  would  ba  ay  Imprasslon  only. 

1116  e    Yas. 

1117  A    Yas. 

1118  8    Hhat  was  your  Imprasslon? 

1119  .  ~  A    Hall,  that  It  was  going  to  ba  funnalad  parhaps 

1120  through  U.S.  sourcas  In  Cantral  Amarlca  to  tha  contras. 

1121  e    Did  you  hava  an  Imprasslon  whathar  It  was  a  U.S. 


UNClASSinED 


90 


NAnE  = 

1122 
1123 
1  1214 
1  125 
1  126 
1  127 
1  128 
1  129 
1  130 
1  131 
1  132 
1  133 
1  134 
1  135 
1  136 
1  137 
1  138 
1  139 
1  IMO 
1141 
1  142 
1  143 
1  144 
1  145 
1  146 


HIR034002 


UNCUSSIFIED 


PAGE    48 


Government  operation  or  not? 

A    Yes,  I  had  the  feeling  that  it  was. 

2    And  what  gave  you  these  impressions? 

A    Well,  let  me  further  amplify  that.   I  didn't  think 
that  Dick  Gadd  was  operating  as  an  international  arms 
merchant . 

Q    Okay. 

A    I  just  felt  that  it  was  being  dona  for  a  government 
agency.   I  can't  be  more  specific  than  that,  but  I  think  it 
would  have  given  us  some  problems,  too,  if  we  had  felt  that 
Gadd  was  operating  as--this  is  an  editorial  or  comment--but  if 
Gadd  had  been  operating  independently,  we  would  have  had  a 
real  problem  with  that. 

2    And  what  would  your  problem  have  been? 

A    Uell,  you  know,  we  don't  fly  arms  around,  we  don't 
fly  arms  around  for  any  Tom,  Dick  or  Harry. 

2    In  fact,  do  you  know  of  Southern  Air  Transport  ever 
flying  arms  around  for  anyone  other  than  the  United  States 
Government? 

A    I  have  no  knowledge. 

fi    Suppose  I  referred  to  hazardous  material.   Do  you 
know  of  Southern  Air  Transport  flying  hazardous  material 
around  for  anyone  else,  the  U.S.  Government? 

A    Oh,  sura. 

2    For  who  else  does  it  fly  hazardous  cargo? 


iimmm 


91 


Mixoanooa 


UNClflSSIFIFD 


PAGE    U9 


IlluttxmtlonS/  you  don't  hav*  to  nan*  th«a. 

A    I  oan't  oii   tha  top  o£   my  haad>  you  know,  custonars 
probably  llka--ua  did  ona>  I  can't  ranambar  tha  custonars. 
but  oil  drilling  axploslvas  and  things  oi  that  natuta,  sura. 
Nothing  unusual  about  that. 

But  thay  ara  not  nunltions. 
fi    Lat's  go  through  tha  rast  of  tha  documants  in  your 
iila.   Ha  will  saa  uhathar  wa  maka  tha» — 
\        That  is  dirty  pool  this  ona . 

HR.  KIRSTEIN:   Tha  lawyars  ara  to  blaaa  for  that. 
THE  HITNESS'   Yas.  you  gat  tha  blaiia  for  that.   Had 
I  not  saan  this  I  navar  would  hava  raoognizad  that. 
BYHR.  TIErER' 
S    By  tha  way>  on  paga  imS,  do  you  raoogniza  tha 
inscription  or  tha  phona  nunbar  now  that  you  hava  looked  at 
it? 

t    Yas >  that  is  ny  writing  and  doodling  on  Dick  Gadd's 
nunbar . 

e   Do  you  raoogniza  paga  11i(9? 
i    Yas. 

fi    Can  you  axplain  what  it  is?   Would  you  identify  it? 
A    Yas>  and  this  ralatas  to  aithar  ona  of  tha  two 
AzxoN  trips.  X  don't  ranambar  which  ona,  probably  tha  first 
ona.   And  it  is  tha  nama  of  an  individual  with] 
^^^^^■and  thay  ara  a  ground  handling  agant. 


iifnussm 


92 


NAHZi 

1172 
1173 
117«i 
117S 
1176 
1  177 
1178 
1  179 
1180 
1181 
1182 
1183 
1  18M 
1185 
1186 
1187 
1188 
1189 
1190 
1191 
1  192 
1193 
1194 
1195 
1196 


HZR03U002 


iiNCUssm 


PiGX         SO 


^-   a   Do  you  hftva  any  zacollaotion — doas  this  zaizash  youz 
zaoollaotion  as  to  what  this  individual  might  hava  dona? 

k        1   think  that  thay.  Clinas  had  nada  azrangamants 
with  than  to  do  tha  tzans-load.   It  is  ioz  tha  loading  of 
tha  alzczait,  nothing  aoza,  nothing  lass.   Not  that  I  know 
of  any  way. 

fi    Did  you  spaak  to  this  pazson? 

A    I  don't  zamambaz  if  I  did  oz  not. 

e    I  show  you  paga  1150. 
Do  you  zacogniza  it? 

X    Yas>  vagualy. 

e    Can  you  axplain  what  it  is? 

k        I  baliava  that  it.is~it  is  only  a  baliai — that  it 
was  Ton  Clinas*  hotal  nuabaz,  hotal  rooB,  and  than  just  soma 
notas  that  Z  wantad  to  giva  hla.   Tha  plana  was  dalayad,  I 
was  tailing  him  whan  it  was  going  to  azziva,  I  mada  a  nota 
how  long  it  takas  to  load  it  and  gat  out  o£   thaza  and  I 
guass  my  iinal  nota  is  whan  it  would  azziva  at  tha 
dastination. 

e    ill  zight.   Paga  1151? 

A   Oh>  yas,  this  was — Azzow  invoiead  us  in  addition  to 
tha  basio  zata  thay  ohazgad  foz  tha  tzip.  «30,000  damuzzaga 
ohazgas  ioz   tha  dalay  dua  to  tha  snow  stozm^^^^^^^^^Hand 
wa  did  not  pay  it. 

e    What  is  documant  1151?   I  think  I  zaoogniza  it. 


uNCUtssve 


93 


UNCLASSIFIED 


HIK03*4001    llllVLnWII   IkV  PAGE         51 

1    It  Is  an  Involc*  iroa  know  to  Southern  ior 
damuiiag*  chargaa  oi  two  days.  I  ballava. 

fi    Could  this  ba  a  KazoK  of  an  anvalop  with  &  window 
In  It? 

I        That  Is  probably  a  fair  stataaant,  yas . 

fi    1152,  do  you  racognlza  that? 

k        That  Is  an  anpllilad  varslon  of  1151.   Hy  maaory  Is 
battar  than  I  thought. 

fi    Battar  than  you  said,  Z  an  not  sura  It  Is  a  John 
Daan  maaory. 

i    It  Is  not. 

fi    Paga  1153. 

I        It'  Is  ay  writing  and  it  doasn't  aaan  a  thing  to  aa 
now  today.   It  Is  obviously  soaa — a  flight  Itinerary,  but  It 
doasn't  aaan  anything  today. 

fi    1154. 

A   Tha  first  nuabars  aza  Azzow  Air's  local  phona 
nuabar,  soaa  notas  about  landing  rights  Including 
dastlnatlon  and  I  told  thaa  that  that  was  thalr 
rasponslblllty. 

Dapartura  tlaa .   Tha  othar  notas  ara  tailing  thaa 
tha  oustoaar  would  handla  tha  onloading  and  offloading. 

.  "      Also,  instructing  Arrow  that  thay  hawa  to  taka  cara 
of  ground  aqulpaant.   Also  asking  Arrow  for  tha  aircraft 
registration,  craw  naaes  and  tha  arrival  tlaa 


UNCLASSIHED 


94 


iiNJUssm 


HAKE:  HIR03U002         'VbriUIIIIII  ||      PAGE    52 


1222 
1223 
122^ 
1225 
1226 
1227 
1228 
1229 
1230 
1231 
1232 
1233 
123>t 
1235 
1236 
1237 
12  38 
1239 
12M0 
12m 
12>42 
12X3 
12>4<4 
12U5 
121(6 


.  .       Basically,  notes  to  myseli  of  questions  to  ask  or 
statements  to  make  to  Arrow. 

fi    Mould  you  have  kept  a  record  oi  the  names  of  the 
crew? 

A    I  think  I  wrote  it  on  a  piece  of  paper  and  threw  it 
away  after  I  passed  it. 

e    Page  1155? 

A    I  don't  remenber  this.   I  mean,  I  don't  have  any 
good  recollection  of  it. 

8    Based  on  it,  let  me  ask  you  a  question  or  two.   It 
purports  to  be  a  telex  to  the  attention  of  Mr.  Poirson  and 
nr .  Mulligan.   Do  you  recall  telexes  being  sent  back  and 
forth  at  all  on  this  matter? 

A    No,  there  was  telexes  or  hard  copy  messages  sent 
which  were  flight  itineraries  but  never  was  the  shipment  in 
any  of  our  telexes  ever  listed,  and  something  else  comes  out 
on  this  one.   This  Mr.  Wiegensberg,  I  first  recall  that  Gadd 
told  me  that  the  shipment  was  being  handled  out  of  Canada  or 
brokered  out  of  Canada  by  a  company  called  Iransworld — 

Q    Arms . 

A    — arms.   I  think  this  Ulegensbarg  was  with 
Transworld  Arms  but  I  don't  now  what  happened,  but  X  think 
h*  "Sell  out  of  the  loop  somehow  in  the  whole  process. 

S    Kow  that  your  memory  from  years  ago  which  is 
holding  up,  it  is  coming  back  to  you.  does  the  fact  that  a 


UNCUSSIFIfD 


95 


^nmssim 


Ntni>  KII103*4002  ^^ VII  Iff  If       PAGE    53 


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1218 
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1250 
1251 
1252 
1253 
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1256 
1257 
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1260 
1261 
1262 
1263 
126K 
126S 
1266 
1267 
1268 
1269 
1270 
1271 


ooapany  with  th*  naa*  Transworld  Atas  took  part  in  It,  was 
that  also  part  of  why  you  wars  under  tha  inprasslon  that 
arms  sight  ba  baing  shipped? 

A    Yas,  that  is  right.   Gaaz>  it  wasn't  pinaapplas. 
Kow  I  find  out. 
[ Laughtar . ] 

BY  MR.  TIEriR' 

fi    Lat's  go  out  oi  saquenca  a  littla  and  I  show  you 
paga  1157,  anothar  doeunant. 

A    Okay.   Iha  nassaga  itsali,  not  tha  notas.  tha 
iiassaga  itsali  was  sant  out  by  Arrow  and  it  is  a  flight 
advisory  itinerary  just  providing  basio  iniornation 
concarning  tha  trip. 

And  it  lists  tha  consignaa  oi  tha  freight  in 
ilDF  olass  3-C. 

fi    Uhat  does  olass  C  explosives  mean  to  you? 

A    It  can  mean  any  number  oi  things  but  in  this  case 
ue  knew  it  was  ammunition.   Really  there  is  not — X  suppose  it 
is  an  itinerary  message,  set  up  sheet. 

e   Old  Arrow  Air,  as  well  as  Southern  Air  Transport, 
know  that  this  was  ewplosives? 

A    Z  think  Z  told  them  it  was  olass  C  and  I  did 
not' — they  knew  it  was  explosives  but  I  did  not  tell  them  that 
it  was  ammo. 

KR.  KIRSTEZNi   They  might  have— 


iintimm 


96 


UNCIASSIHED 


NXHE>  RXX03U002   Ul  IUI.JIUUI  I  IbU       PAGE    5U 


1272 
1273 
127I* 
127S 
1276 
1277 
1278 
1279 
1280 
1281 
1282 
1283 
12814 
1285 
1286 
1287 
1288 
1289 
1290 
1291 
1292 
1293 
12911 
1295 
1296 


THE  WITNESS!   I  told  thaa  it  was  class  C,  thay 
flguiad  It  out,  too. 

BY  MR.  TIEFER: 
e    Is  that  your  handuzitlng? 
A    Y»s. 

S    Can  you  axplain  what  It  signifies,  what  that  does 
signify? 

MR.  KIRSTEIN:   Did  you  ever  talk  to  Secozd? 

THE  WITHESS:   No.   You  know,  the  interesting  thing 
is  I  nevez  did  talk  to  Secozd.   I  think  I  Got  these  nunbers, 
these  weze  notes  I  believe  I  made  at  home  over  the  weekend 
when  one  of  the  trips  was  opezating .   I  don't  know  why  I 
have  Hiegensbezg 's  nana  down  thaze,  but  I  believe  in  ay 
convezsations  with  Ton  Clines  he  was  the  one  that  gave  na 
all  these  nunbers  ioz  Secozd. 

BY  MR.  TIEFER: 
S    These  phone  numbers 7 

A    These  phone  numbers.   Hhen  I  told  Gadd  that  I  even 
have  Secozd 's  oar  phone  number,  Gadd  expzessed  a  little 
displaasuz*  that  I  even  had  that.   Basically,  what  happened 
on  this  trip,  because  of  the  snafus,  all  the  coordinating 
activities,  Gadd  was  cut  out  of  that  loop  and  I  was  dealing 
dlz'ect  with  Tom  Clines  who  gave  me  the  impression  that  he 
was  working  for  Secozd. 

So  I  make  a  note  here  that  the^^^^Hf light  is 


mmms 


97 


HAHK' 
1297 
1298 

1299 
1300 
130  1 
1302 
1303 
13014 
1305 
1306 
1307 
1308 
1309 
1310 
1311 
1312 
1313 
131<4 
1315 
1316 
1317 
1318 
1319 
1320 
1321 


HIK03M002 


UNCUSSIFIED 


PACK    SS 


904ng  to  arciv*  Uadnasday  at  0130Z.  tha  rast  of  It  doasn't 
■•an  such  to  ■•• .   I  navaz  did  contact  Sacozd. 

fi    Has  Atzow  Air  working  with  you  on  tha  shipmant  out 
arranganants  or  had  thay  lait  all  that  to  you,  tha  ground 
azrangenants^^^^^^^^^Hand  daaling  with  tha  dalays  and 
such? 

A    I  was  gatting  fad  tha  Information  on  tha  delays. 
tha  first  trip  was  dalayad  bacausa  of  tha  H^^^Kilight  baing 
delayed  out  °^^^^^^^^K     ^  was  gatting  that  inforaation  on 
arrival  times  from  Tom  Clinas  who  was  in  Lisbon. 

Than  I  would  in  turn  advise  Arrow  whan  they  could 
expect  tha  connecting  flight  to  ha  in. 

Arrow  made  their  own  handling  arrangements  for 
fuel.  air.  and  electric.   Somebody  over  there  made 
arrangements  for  the  loading  of  the  freight.   I  can't 
remember  who. 

S    What  about  at  tha  other  end.  the^^^^^^^^^end,  is 

that  the  destination?  

Yes.  tha        trip       to^^^^^^^and  tha 
arrangements.  I  was  told  by  Gadd.  ware  handled,  don't  worry 
about  it.  when  it  gets  down  there--!  am  talking  about  the 
offload  of  the  freight. 

e    Yes. 

A    The  offload  of  tha  freight  was  taken  care  of.  it 
was  handled  by  Gadd.   I  don't  know  who  was  going  to  do  it. 


UNCUSSIHED 


98 


NAHK> 
1322 
1323 

132M 
1325 
1326 
1327 
1328 
1329 
1330 
1331 
1332 
1333 
133U 
1335 
1336 
1337 
1338 
1339 
13*40 
13<41 
131421 
13^3 
13*414 
13*45 
13*46 


KZ&03(4002 


UNClASSinED 


PAGE    56 


but  It  Has  dona. 


And  tha  giound  powax,  at  oataza>  was  Azrou's 
zasponslblllty  to  maka  azrangemants  ioz  that. 

fi    Looking  again  at  1157,  do  any  oi  tha  othaz  nanas  on 
heza  maan  anything  to  you] 


A    I  was  provldad  that  nana  as  tha  conslgnaa  by  Dick 
Gadd. 

e    Did  ha  glva  you  any  Indication  whathaz  that  was  a 
zaal  parson  who  was  going  to  zacalva  tha  arms  oe  was  a 
usaiul  nana  Ilka  tha  usaiulnass  of  tha  wozd  ' 'plnaapplas ' ' ? 

A    Ha  lad — I  led--I  ballava  It  was  a  bonailda  pazson. 

fi    You  thought  tha — - 

A    Laglt. 

e        You   thought   tha    azits   waza    going    tol 

A    Yes,  yas.   Yes.   Thara  was  no  doubt  in  ay  alnd .   I 
didn't  know  how  you  could  gzaasa  it  through 
without  sanding  it  thzoughj 

3    On  tha  lower  part  oi   tha  page,  af tar^l^HBthara 
is  a  naaa.  Kr . — perhaps  I  an  wrong  to  say  ''Hr.*'] 
is  that  a  nana  that  means  anything  to  you? 

A    I  aa  sorry.   Where  are  we? 
.  ~  a   Let  aa  show  you.   It  could  be  that  that  is  not  a 
naaa  at  all,  but — 

A    It  is  a  naaa.   I  think  it  is  tha  naaa  oi  a — yas,  I 


UNCLASSIFIEO 


99 


KANK 

1347 
13148 
13M9 
1350 
1351 
1352 
1353 
135M 
1355 
1356 
1357 
1358 
1359 
1360 
1361 
1362 
1363 
1364 
1365 
1366 
1367 
1368 
1369 
1370 
1371 


HIK03I4002 
think  it  Is  th«  ii»na9«t 


UNCIASHD 


PAGE    57 
who  was  th«  handling  agant 


fi    Two  linas  balow  that  thara  is  a  Hr.  Btown,  doas 
that  hava  any  signiiicanca ? 

A    Spaoulation.   As  you  S&»>    it  says  MKPA,  which  I 
baliava  is  Antigua,  and  you  sea  LIAT,  that  stands  for 
Laeward  Islands  Air  Transport,  and  it  is  a  local  airlina  in 
tha  Wast  Indies  or  tha  Windwa,r<;l  Islands  thara,  and  ona  would 
assuna  that  Mr.  Brown  is  probi^bly  tha  station  manager  there 
and  they  are  asking  for  providing  ground  and  air. 

This  is  a  st^ndouLd   set-up  message  you  do  in  any 


transit , 


airline. 


HR.  KIRSTEIK>   LIAT  stands  for  "lata,  if  at  all" 


BY  HR.  TIEFER> 

e    And  "regards.  Jack  Creed"  at  the  bottom? 

A    Jack  Creed  worked  or  does  work,  I  am  not  sure,  in 
Arrow's  cargo  sales  department  and  he  sat  out — he  was  the  one 
that  sent  out  this  set-up  messaga. 

fi    Here  you  dealing  with  him  mostly  over  there  or 
somebody  else? 

A  I  dealt  with--very  briefly  with  him.  I  was  dealing 
primarily  with  a  gentleman  by  the  name  of  Son  Ewing,  who  was 
their  director  of  flight  control. 

2    Do  you  know  whether  Ewlng  and  Creed  are  still  at 


UNCUSSIHFD 


100 


KAHE: 
1372 
1373 
137U 
1375 
1376 
1377 
1378 
1379 
1380 
1381 
1382 
1383 
13814 
1385 
1386 
1387 
1388 
1389 
1390 
1391 
1392 
1393 
1391 
1395 
1396 


HIR03>4002 


ArzoH? 


mmm 


PAGE    58 


A    I  beliave  they  both  are. 

e    Okay. 

A    They  Here  really  in  the  dark  on  this  thing. 

2    How  did  you  know  that? 

A    They  didn't  ask  any  questions  and  I  didn't 
volunteer  any  iniozmation.   It  was  as  i£  they  didn't  want  to 
know.   It  was  just  a  trip  to  then. 

2    I  show  you  page  1158. 

A    This  is  a  message  that  was  sent  out  by.  if  you  look 
at  the  botton.  ''Perry/JH  Flight  Control''.   J.H.  Is  Arrow 
Air's  two  letter  identifier.   This  message  was  just  advising 
us  of  a  re\/ised  itinerary  for  that  trip.   I  think  what  I 
have  done  is  crossed  it  off  because  I  didn't  believe  it. 
then  I  verified  it,  and  I  wrote  good  tises,  and  the  other 
notes  don't  mean  anything  to  me. 

e    The  fact  it  was  a  crew  of  five  U.S.  nationals,  does 
that  mean  anything  to  you? 

A    Yes.   But  I  don't  know  why  there  would  be  a  crew  of 
five.   Other  than  it  doesn't  mean  anything  to  me. 

fi    I  show  you  1 156 . 

A  Okay.  This  was  on  one  of  the  trips,  a  contact  for 
Albvrt  Hakim,  and  I  am  not  sure  if  cross  references  may  not 
show  that  that  is  the  same  number  as  DEFEX  offices. 

e    You  mean  phone  number  or  telex  number? 


mmm 


101 


1397 
1398 

1399 

moo 

1(40  1 
1U02 

mo3 

1<40I4 

itos 

1t406 

mo? 
mo8 
mo9 

1*410 

mi  1 

1*412 
11413 

imi4 
mis 
mu 
mi? 

1<418 

im9 

1(420 
1421 


UNCLASSIRED 


HIX03<4002    IllVltl  M.l.lll  ir  II      PtaX    59 

A    Y*s .   Th«  phon*  nunbar.   Tha  hotal  nunbar,  too«  823 
undatnaath  that,  that  was  I  ballava  for  Cllnas  and--oh.  Z 
knoM  what  this  was  about.   I  told  Azxow  that  I  would  gat  tha 
traiilo  rights ^^^^^^^H  for  than  and  that  is,  that  is 
anothar  raason  why  I  baliava  it  was  gzaasad  ovar.   Thay  got 
traffic  rights  and  it  was  slow  ooaing  and  I  baliava  wa  avan 
sant  tha  airplana  without  landing  rights  ovar  thara. 

I  an  a  littla  sKatchy  on  that.   Trying  to  gat 
through  tha  Clinas,  Clinas  was  trying  to  arranga  it  or 
sonabody  in  DETEX  of flea,  thara  is  anothar  nana  which  I  an 
sura  you  will  gat  to. 

fi    Doas  th^  nana  Josa  Carnal  maan  anything? 

I        Dr*.  Carnal.   Z  only  talkad  to  hia  onca.   Z  don't 
racall.   Zt  was  ovar  thasa  traffic  rights,  and  thara  was 
anothar  guy.  Lunas  or  sonathlng  Ilka  that.   Rakla  was  tha 
guy  that  finally  notifiad  na  whan  Z  got  in  touch  with  him 
that  ha  ox  sonabody  had  sacurad  tha  landing  rights. 

fi    Has  that  an  unorthodox  procadura  to  sand  a  plana 
ovar  without  landing  rights? 

&   No.   Hall,  wa — wall,  yas .   I  was  lad  to  baliava  that 
thay  wara  forthooaing,  though,  so  it  was  kind  of  a  rola  of 
tha  dlca.   Z  had  avary  raason  to  baliava  thay  wara  going  to 
pun  through. 

Zf  it  was  lass  than  a  90  parcant  shot,  Z  couldn't 
hava  dona  it. 


UNCLASSIFEI 


102 


NAME: 

1(t22 
1>(23 

m25 
1426 
1427 
1428 
1429 
1430 
1431 
1432 
1433 
1434 
1435 
1436 
1437 
1438 
1439 
1440 
1441 
1442 
1443 
11144 
1445 
1446 


UNCLASSra 


HIR034002    UllllL^llljII  11  II       fJ^GH         60 

S   You  nay  have  said  this,  vtas  Hakin  in  the  United 
States  during  this  time? 

A    I  think  he  was  over  there. 

e    So  let  ne  have  your  impressions  as  to  where  the 
players  were.   Clines  was  over  there?   In  Portugal? 

A    Clines  was  over  in  Portugal. 

Q    Do  you  believe  Hakim  was  in  Portugal? 

A    He  was  either  th^re  or  San  Francisco.   I  don't  know 
why  I  think  he  might  have  been  in  San  Francisco.   But  my 
memory  does  not  serve  me  well. 

2    Hhere  did  you  believe  Secord  was? 

A    Didn't  have  a  clue. 

Q    Aiid  Gadd? 

A   Gadd  was  in  Washington. 

Q   You  were  talking  to  him  only  by  telephone? 

A    I  wasn't  talking  to  him  on  this  because  he  couldn't 
do  anything. 

e    1159. 

A    I  recognize  the  names.   I  don't  remember  anything 
about  it. 

S    And  might  the  phone  numbers  that  are  shown  be  for 
Josa  Garnel? 
.  ~  A    Oh,  yes.   I  am  sura  they  are.   I  aa  sura. 

2    Here  you  trying  to  reach  him?   Or  was  someone  just 
letting  you  know  how  to  reach  him? 


UNCLASSinED 


103 


NAHE 

1UM7 
IMMS 
114  49 

mso 

IKS  1 
11452 
11453 
lUSU 

mss 

1M56 
1MS7 

loss 

1U59 
1<460 
1X61 
1X62 
1X63 
1X6X 
1X65 
1X66 
1X67 
1X68 
1X69 
1X70 
1X71 


HZX03X002 


UNcussro 


PAGZ         61 


SoB«body  l«t  B*  know  how  to  taaoh  him.   I  probably 


did  laach  him.   I  had  rnoi*  pzoblams  going  on  with  that.   I 
can't  zamanbar  uho  I  contactad  foi  what  with  all  tha 
problams  associated  with  this. 

Q    Ooas  tha  word  ''parking  azrangad'*? 

A    Ha  may  hava--I  can't  laaglna  asking  hin  for  parking 
arrangements  because  that  is  something  I  would  have  asked 
^^^^^1  about,  so  I  don't  know. 

I  don't  know  what  that  number  at  tha  bottom  where 
it  says  ''HONT'"  after  it? 

S    Yes. 

A    That  doesn't  ring  a  bell. 

fi    Is'  tha  name  Mr.  >-t-u-n-e-s,  could  that  ba  tha  Mr. 
Lunes  you  refarzad  to  you  ware  trying  to  placa? 

A    yes.   And  Brito  might  be  his  first  name. 
The  ^^^^^^Bneansl 

A    Yes.   I  don't  know.   I  don't  know  who  ha  is  with 
anymore . 

2    Do  you  have  any  idea  why  this  is  on  a  place  of 
paper  that  says  ''Amfac  Hotel' '? 

A    Yes,  I  think  several  months  before  I  took  a  trip  to 
Dallas  and  I  stayed  at  Amfac  and  it  was  just  a  piece  of 
papvr  I  had  lying  on  ay  desk. 

fi    Okay. 

MR.  KIRSTEIK:   How  about  a  rastroom  break  here? 


"fimsim 


104 


m72 

1U73 
1474 
147S 
1476 
1477 
1478 


UNCDUSIFIED 


KAHE:     HIK034002      lllll.l    ll.\\lff>li>ll  PAGE         62 


HR.    TIErER:       Sure. 

Let's  mazk  this  as  Exhibit  1,    the  entire  set  of 
records,  1143  through  1159. 

[The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPH-7 
for  identification: ] 

x*********  IMSERT  2-2  *********/ 


(INCUSSIflED 


105 


HIR03'4002 


DCI1N    CUINTERO 


VNCussm 


PAGE  63 


BY    HR.     TIEFER: 

2    Back  on  the  tecord  . 
I  show  you  documents  17i*8  through  1752. 

A    Yes . 

2    Do  you  recognize  these  pages? 

A    Yes  . 

2    Can  you  identify  them? 

A    This  is  a--1748  is  a  check  request.   It  is  a 
Southeastern  Air  form.   And  it  was  a  check  request  to  pay 
Arrow  Air  in  advance  ior  a  charter  flight,  one  of  which  we 
have  already  discussed. 

2    Before  we  go  away,  did  you  fill  that  form  out? 

A    I  didn't  fill  this  out,  but  I  think  probably  what 
happened  is  I,  probably  on  the  phone,  told  somebody  in 
finance,  more  specifically,  our  vice  president  of  finance, 
that  I  needed  «107,000. 

2    Who  was  that  at  the  time? 

A    Probably  at  that  time  it  was  Tom-- 

S    Does  the  name  Crummey  mean  anything? 

A    Tom  Crummey;  yes.   He  probably  had  somebody  fill  it 
out  and  issue  the  check,  and  I  passed  the  check  on  to  Arrow. 

e    You  did  the  check  in  your  hand? 

A    Yes,  I  believe  X  did. 

2    Is  that  usual?   I  guess  you  didn't  normally  handle 


UNCLASSIFIED 


106 


UNCussra 


NiHK>  HZR03i(003  IIIVI.I  ll\\ll*l^ll        PACK    6M 

1S0H  o&«rt«zx7 

1505  A   Ko,  I  don't  normally  handl*  chartazs.   But  as  Z 

1506  statad  aazli«r>  Z  was  tha  only  point  of  contact  Mlthln 

1507  Southazn  Aiz  on  this,  thasa  chaztaz  tzips. 

1508  S    Paga  17h9? 

1509  A    Zt  is  just  a  standard  aircraft  chaztaz  contzact  foz 

1510  Azzow,  with  Azzou,  foz  tha  tzip  ua  talked  about. 

1511  e    Did  you  hava  any  dealings  with  David  Sowezs? 

1512  A    Sowers?   He  was  there  vice  president  of  sales. 

1513  He  really  didn't  get  involved  in  any  of  the  selling  of 
151*1  this  trip  at  all,  but  it  becana  a  sales  function  when  you 

1515  got  down  to  picking  up  the  money  and  signing  the  contract. 

1516  so  he  handled  it.   The  resi  of  it  is  just  addenda  to  tha 

1517  contract. 

1518  e    1752? 

1519  A    This  is  a  check  zequest  for  the  first  trip,  and  you 

1520  Bight  know  that  the  second  trip  was  more  extensive  than  the 

1521  first.   That  is  because  they  were  unhappy  with  the  way  the 

1522  fizst  one  want  so  with  tha  delays  with  theflHHflight. 

1523  They  didn't  even  want  to  do  it  and  Z  talked  them  into  it. 

1524  and  they  raised  the  price.   As  it  turns  out  they  completely 

1525  botohed  the  second  one. 

1526  ~  They  actually — that  zeminded  me  they  owe  ma  «3,000  bucks; 

1527  so  we  aze  pzobably  even. 

1528  nR.  TZEFER:   Let's  mazk  this  as  the  next  exhibit. 


immsm 


107 


HAHE:  HIR034002 
1S29 
1530 


UNCLASSIHED 


1531 
1532 


PAGE    65 
iTha  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DMP-8  for 
identification:  1 


«******«*«    INSERT    3    -     1       ***xx*x*x/ 


iimiFiEii 


108 


NAHE: 
1533 
153U 
1S3S 
1536 
1537 
1538 
1539 
15140 
1541 
15142 
1543 
1544 
1545 
1546 
1547 
1548 
1549 
1550 
1551 
1552 
1553 
1554 
1555 
1556 
1557 


HIR034002 


ONGlASSinED 


PAGE    66 


BY  HR.  TIEFER: 
fi    Do  you  know  this  document? 
A    Ho  real  memory. 

2    Do  you  recognize  the  handwriting? 
A    Yes:  Poirson. 

e    You  said  you  were  the  only  real  contact  point,  but  a 
number  oi  times  you  have  mentioned  Poirson' s  name.   Did  he 
have  a  iair  knowledge  of  what  was  going  on? 

A    He  knew  that  X  was  dealing  with  Arrow  for  a  trip;  he 
knew  some  oi  the  routings;  he  didn't  have  any  idea  what  the 
cargo  was.  or  any  of  the  other  details. 

HR.  KIRSTEIN:   This,  from  the  date,  doesn't  have 
anything  to'  do  with  Arrow;  does  it? 

THE  WITNESS:   No:  I  think  what  this  piece  of  paper 
is,  it —  the  Arrow  flight  was  when? 

MR.  KIRSTEIK:   January  and  March  of  1985. 
This  was  your  first — 

THE  HITNESS:   This  was  much  later. 
BY  HR.  TIEFER: 
fi    Let's  put  this  aside  before  we  go  to  this.   Now,  we 
have  gone  over  a  lot  of  documents.   I  just  want  to  see  if 
anything  more  comes  back  to  you  about  the  January  and  March 
198S  flights. 

Did  anything  happen  between  the  first  and  the  second--did 
you  discuss  with  anybody  this  seemingly  strange  event  that 


UNCUSSm 


109 


HIR03<4002 


UNCUSMD 


PAGE  67 


had  taken  place,  or  the  new  people  you  had  talked  to? 

A    I  am  not  sure  I  understand  what  you  mean  by 
''strange  events.''      "" 

S  If  you  don't  accept  my  characterization,  the  events 
that  had  taken  place  on  the  January  trip,  the  difficulty  of 
arranging  for  delivery. 

A    No,  nothing  happened. 
You  know>  when  you  fly  airplanes  on  a  charter  basis  all 
over  the  world,  regardless  of  what  the  nature  of  the  freight 
may  be,  whether  it  is  hazardous  material  or  not,  you  have 
difficulties  on  an  ad  hoc  basis.   It  Is  not  like  flying 
scheduled  service. 

There  'was  nothing  unusual  about  any  of  these  trips,  as  far 
as  Z  was  concerned,  given  ay  expaxiencA. 

These  types  of  operations  are  fraught  with  difficulties. 

8    Kow,  this  was  a  different  type  of  plane  than  the 
planes  that  Southern  Aix  Transport  had? 

A    Yes. 

2    Large  planes — did  that  provide  any  thought  on  your 
part  about  the  usefulness  of  Southern  Air  Transport  having 
such  planes?   Here  there  any  discussions  that  cane  out  of 
that? 

~  A    I  think  we  had  made  a  corporate  decision,  long 
before  any  of  these  trips,  to  get  into  another  aircraft 
type.   Clearly,  we  didn't  get  into  the  707  to  form  these 


UNCIASSIHED 


no 


NAHE: 

1583 
1584 
1585 
1586 
1587 
1588 
1589 
1590 
1591 
1592 
1593 
159>4 
1595 
1596 
1597 
1598 
1599 
1600 
1601 
1602 
1603 
160(« 
1605 
1606 
1607 


UNGIASSIFIED 


HIR03i«00flll«l|l    U^^ll    II    11  PAGE  68 

typ.es    of    trips    because    you   can   go    broke    in   a   hurry   if    that 
is   your    only   line    of   business. 

2    When  had  the  decision  been  made  to  get  707s? 

A    Oh/  probably  in  October  of  1984 .   He  had  a  senior 
marketing  meeting  and  the  decision  uas  made  at  that  time 
that  we  had  to  expand  the  product  line.   He  can't  just  offer 
the  Hercules,  we  had  to  offer  an  airplane  as  large  as  the  13 
pallet  position  jet  freighter.   That  is  when  that  discussion 
was  made . 

2    By  senior  management,  who  would  have  participated  in 
that? 

A    The  chairman,  the  president,  and  senior  vice 
presidents,'  and-- 

S    Hho  were  yourself  and  Mr.  Crummey — 

A    Charlie  Carson,  Bill  Langton,  Jim  Bastian;  also  at 
that  meeting  was  Asa  Hemperly,  vice  president  of  sales;  and 
Carl  Holivei,  who  is  no  longer  with  us,  director  of 
personnel;  and  Ray  Taranto.   But  there  was  a  decision  made 
by  the  senior  management  group  to  expand  into  another 
airplane. 

fi    Has  anyone  tasked  to  go  start  the  acquisition 
process? 

'  k        I  eventually  was  assigned  the  project  and  traveled 
to  Kuwait,  and  completed  the  purchase  of  three  airplanes 
from  the  ■4tuwaile3e,  Kuwait  Airlines. 


UNCussra 


Ill 


NAnE  : 
1608 
1609 
16  10 
16  11 
16  12 
16  13 
16  m 
1615 
16  16 
16  17 
1618 
1619 
1620 
1621 
1622 
1623 
1624 
1625 
1626 
1627 
1628 
1629 
1630 
1631 
1632 


HIR03U002 


ilNCUSSIFIED 


PAGE     69 


-  C    When  did  you  go  to  Kuwait? 

A    Oh,  March  of  1985,  after  I  finished  fooling  around 
with  Arrow. 

2    Did  you  know  how  many  of  them  you  would  buy? 

A    Mall,  before  I  went  over  there  obviously  identified 
TeleK  Comnunications  with  them,  knew  they  had  three 
available,  three  were  for  sale.   And  so  I  went  over  there 
and  spent  a  month  negotiating  the  purchase  oi  the  three 
airplanes  and  their  entire  spares  package. 

2    By  yourself? 

A    I  had  a  technical  representative  with  me  who  did  the 
final  inspection  of  the  airplanes  and  then  I  had  a 
couple--two  of  those  guys.. to  do  records  research  and  then  I 
had  another  guy  who  was  an  aircraft  broker  and  he  eventually 
ended  up  leaving  and  I  finished  the  deal  myself. 

Q    Did  Bill  Langton  or  Jim  Bastian  participate  at  all? 

A    Ho;  only  by  giving  me  a  lot  of  advice  over  the 
phone . 

S    What  was  their  advice? 

HR.  KIRSTEIK:   Lower  the  price? 

THE  WITNESS:   Lower  the  price,  right. 

BY  MR.  TIEFER: 

S    Did  you  succeed  in  louezing  the  amount  in  youz  month 
in  Kuwait? 

A    Yes. 


UNcussra 


112 


NAME: 

1633 
16311 
1635 
1636 
1637 
1638 
1639 
16(40 
16(41 
16((2 
16U3 
16(4U 
16U5 
16M6 
16(47 
16(48 
16(49 
1650 
1651 
1652 
1653 
165(4 
1655 
1656 
1657 


HIR03(4002 


UNCLASSra 


PAGE  70 


-  fi    By  hoH  much,  roughly? 

A    (»  million;  (4.5  million. 

2    What  was  it  when  you  iirst  started? 

A    *10.5  million. 

2    And  it  came  down  to? 

A    $6.5  million. 

2    Did  that  cover  your  expenses? 

A    Barely. 

2    When  did  you  complete  the  discussions? 

A    Sometime  aiter  Easter  of  that  year.   I  know  I  was 
over  there  a  long  time. 

2    And  did  the  sale  take  place  shortly  thereafter/  or 
not  for  a  while? 

A    Hell,  we  executed  a  sales  document  prior  to  my 
departure.   And  we  took  delivery  probably  two  months  later 
on  the  first  airplane,  I  think  it  was  June,  Hay  or  June. 

2    Did  you  know  whether  other  airlines  were  attempting 
to  buy  these  planes  at  the  same  time? 

A    There  were  other  interested  parties  in  the 
airplanes . 

2    Did  you  have  the  sense  you  were  competing  with  them, 
oz  the  Kuwaita**  were  trying  to  get  you  to  compete  with 
them? 

A    I  think  they  would  have  like  to,  but  you  would  have 
to  have  perseverance  in  dealing  with  them.   First  of  all. 


UNCLASSIHED 


113 


UNCLASSIFIED 


NAME:  HIROSMOOZ  IIIVIll    Malalll    II    II  PAGE  71 

1658  thay  hava  to  establish  your  credibility. 

1659  They  are  very  leery,  and  they  had  to  qualify  ma  as  a 

1660  legitinate  buyer.   That  took  sone  time  before  they  would 
166  1  enter  into  serious  negotiations. 

1662  2         During  that  time  did  you  have  a  sense  of  what  the 

1663  other  potential  buyers  were  willing  to  pay  for  these  planes? 
166>4       A    Ho. 

1665  2    Did  the  Kuwait***  —  thay  navar  — 

1666  A    No.   One  of  the  advantages  that  wa  represented  to 

1667  Kuwait  was  that  we  were  willing  to  take  all  three  airplanes, 

1668  which  was  their  last  707s  and  their  entire  inventory,  that 

1669  was  unique  to  the  707s,  and  took  it  all  off  their  books. 

1670  Most  of  the  people  going  in  were  brokers,  they  wanted  to 

1671  do  onesies  or  twosies,  were  not  intarastad  in  the  inventory, 

1672  or  only  portions  of  it,  so  we  were  in  a  position  to  take 

1673  everything  off  their  books.   So  as  a  package  it  was 

1674  attractive  to  them. 

1675  If  they  had  been  patient  and  given  a  batter  geographical 

1676  location,  they  could  have  piecemaaled  it  out  and  realized  a 

1677  greater  incoma.   But  they  uexa  smart  in  gattlng  rid  of  it  as 

1678  thay  did. 

1679  2    You  said  you  got  advice  over  the  telephone.   Here 

X 

1680  any  Teles  sent  back  and  forth  to  you  while  you  were  there, 

1681  letters  or  other  written  communications? 

1682  A    No. 


UNCUSSinED 


114 


NAHE: 

1683 
168(4 
1685 
1686 
1687 
1688 
1689 
1690 
1691 
1692 
1693 
16914 
1695 
1696 
1697 
1698 
1699 
1700 
1701 
1702 
1703 
1704 
1705 
1706 
1707 


UNCIASSIHED 


HIR03>4002         llllll.l    flXXIHI^II  PAGE  72 

-2        Did   you   corae    baclT  with  "any   documentation? 

A    Yes>  a  sales  contract. 

2    But  other  than  that,  no  menos  or  reports,  or 
anything  like  that? 

A    Ko.   Uell,  I  got  a  file  this  thick,  other  than  the 
sales  contract,  that  shous  you  all  the  parts  that  went  with 
it  and  things  like  that. 

2    But  Bill  langton  would  have  to  take  your  word  ior  it 
as  to  everything  you  said  took  place  in  the  negotiations? 

A    He  would  have  to  take  ay  word  for  it. 

2    Okay. 

A    Yes,  and  the  proof  was  in  the  pudding  as  it  was 
delivered.   I  am  still  here,. 

2    I  show  you--let*s  go  back  to  773,  which  has  the  date 
December  1985  on  it.   Do  you  have--you  have  said  you  don't 
have  a  recollection  of  that? 

A    No  recollection. 

2    Except  you  think  it  is  Bob  Poirson's  handwriting? 

A    It  is  Bob  Poirson's  handwriting;  yes. 

2    Do  you  recall  a  flight  in  December  1985 
corresponding  to  this? 

A    No. 

2    Okay. 

A    Specifically  on  a  date.  no.   We  may  have;  we  may  not 
have.   I  don't  think  we  ever  did  go  to  Bermuda  on  any  of 


UNCIASSIHED 


115 


NAHK>  MXXOSUOOa 


Mmm  ■-' 


73 


1708 
1709 
1710 
1711 
1712 
1713 
1714 
171S 
1716 


thos«  routings  to  C«ntral  Aaarloa. 
fi    Or  from 
A    FromI 
fi    You  racognlz*  th*  handwriting? 

HR.  TZErCRi   Lttt's  nark  this  as  tha  naxt  axhlblt. 
( Tha  following  docxmant  was  narkad  as  Exhibit  EPH-9  for 
ldantlilcatlon<  ] 

xxxxxxxxxx  XKSERT  3-2  xxxxxxxxx/ 


UNcussra 


116 


KAnE  = 
1717 
1718 
1719 
1720 
1721 
1722 
1723 
172«4 
172S 
1726 
1727 
1728 
1729 
1730 
1731 
1732 
1733 
17314 
1735 
1736 
1737 
1738 
1739 
17140 
17m 


HIR0314002 


mmrnn 


PAGE  74 


BY    HR.     TIEFER: 

2.   Previously  you  described  certain  forms  that 
reflected  cargo.   Let  me  show  you  number  687  and  ask  you  if 
you  are  familiar  with  that  form? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  the — 

A    The  form.  I  am — I  have  never  seen  this  sheet  before. 

Q    Okay. 
Can  you  describe  the  significance  of  the  form? 

A    It  is  a  general  declaration.   You  have  got  to  stamp 
it  out  and  stamp  it  in  by  customs,  list  the  aircraft  number, 
company  that  operates  the  aircraft,  flight  number,  the  date; 
point  of  origin:  destination,  the  crew  members,  cargo,  and 
the  rest  is  self-explanatory. 

Q    This  has  nothing--this  particular  form  has  nothing 
filled  in  in  the  cargo  box  or  am  I  wrong? 

A    It  doesn't  because,  probably,  it  was — the  cargo 
manifests  were  attached  so  that  probably  took  care  of  it. 

e    And  who  fills  this  out? 

A    The  company. 

fi    Heaning  Southern  Air? 

A    Yes. 
~  e    Hho  in  Southern  Air  would  fill  this  out? 

A    Most  of  the  time  if  it  is  out  of  Hlami,  somebody  in 
the  sales  and  service  department  would  handle  it,  or  if  it 


mmm 


117 


UNCLASSIHED 


NAME:     HIR03M002      Ull  tJL.nLltJII    ILU  PAGE  75 


17142 
1743 
17U14 
1745 
1746 
1747 
1748 


is-not  out  of  Miami  tha  ctaw  can  handurita  it  in. 
fi    All  right. 

MR.  IIEFER:   nark  this  as  tha  naKt  axhibit. 
[The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPH-IO  for 
identification: ] 

INSERT  3-3  x*««*xxxx/ 


UNCLASSIHES 


118 


NAME: 

17U9 
1750 
1751 
1752 
1753 
17514 
1755 
1756 
1757 
1758 
1759 
1760 
1761 
1762 
1763 
1764 
1765 
1766 
1767 
1768 
1769 
1770 
1771 


HIR03i<002 


UNGUSSIFIED 


PAGE    76 


BY  MR.  TIEFER: 


2   Looking  at  document  688>  do  you  recognize  this  type 
of  form? 

A    It  is  a  cargo  manifest. 

2    And  can  you  explain  the  significance  of  this  type  of 
form? 

A    It  is  a  standard  document  that  has  to  accompany  the 
freight,  and  it  lists  who  the  operator  is,  the  flight 
number,  the  date,  departure  and  arrival  points  and  number  of 
pieces,  description  of  the  goods,  and  who  the--or  or  what  the 
wait  is . 

Then  in  this  case  it  shows,  I  guess,  who  the  consignee  is 
and  there,  says  there  is,  t-his  must  mean  there  is  a  shippers 
export  document  accompanying  this. 

2    You  mean  the  SED  in  the  right  column? 

A    Yes  . 

2    Mho  fills  this  out? 

A    The  service  department. 

HR.  TIEFER:   Hark  that  Exhibit  11. 
I  The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPH-II  for 
identification:  I 

xxncxxxxxxx  IKSERT  3  -  M  *********/ 


UNCussm 


119 


HAHE  : 
1772 
1773 
1774 
1775 
1776 
Mil 
\118 
1779 
1780 
1781 
1782 
1783 
178U 
1785 
1786 
1787 
1788 
1789 
1790 
1791 
1792 
1793 
1794 
1795 
1796 


HIR03U002 


UNClASSra 


PAGE  77 


BY    HR.     TIEFER: 


a  ThiS-- 

A    I  think  this  is  the  complete  SED,  right? 

Q    Perhaps  I  have  other  pages.   Let  me  see  that  back. 

A    I  think  you  chopped  off  the  top. 

2    This  is  689? 

When  you  say  incomplete-- 
A    I  think  the  Xerox  top  is  missing. 
2    That  is  689? 
A    Yes  . 

2    Can  you  understand  it  even  with  the  missing  top? 
A    Yes.   But  X  don't  deal  with  this  from  very  often  so 
I  an  in  unchartered  territory  here. 

S   Do  you  know  who  fills  this  out.  if  it  is  done  by  SATl 
A   ^his  would  be  done  by  the  shipper. 
8    Let's  not  make  that  an  exhibit  yet. 

I  show  you  691.  692,  and  690. 
A    What  is  the  difference  between  690  and  691--689? 
2   I  an  tempted  to  say  1 . 
A   What? 

HR.  KIRSTEIH:   It  is  the  same  document,  it  got 
coplad  twica  for  soma  reason. 

HR.  TIEriR:   Yes,  thay  look  lika  the  sana  document. 

HR.  KIRSTEIN^   Thay  are  apparently  the  same. 

THE  WITNESS:   Thay  are  the  sana. 


UNClASSinEI 


120 


HAHE:     HIR0314002 


UNCUSSIFIED 


PAGE    78 


1797 
1798 
1799 
1800 
1801 
1802 
1803 
180>4 
1805 
1806 
1807 
1808 
1809 
1810 
181  1 
1812 
1813 
1814 
1815 
1816 
1817 


.  -      HR.  TIEFER:   All  right. 
BY  MR.  TIEFER: 

Q    Are  you  familiar  with  the  type  of  from  that  69  1  is? 

A    This  is  the  shipper's  export  declaration  and  I  don't 
deal  with  this  very  often,  so  I  am  n^tbjvery  familiar  with 
it. 

2    Hho  in  Southern  Air  Transport  fills  this  out,  if 
anybody? 

A    I  believe  this  is  filled  out  by  the  shipper. 

2    And  692?   It  is  similar  to  689  but  you  will  see  at 
the  bottom  that  the  date  is  five  days  off,  one  is  9-13,  the 
other  says,  9-18.   There  are  other  differences.   It  is  the 
same  type  perhaps.   I  don't  wish  to  put  words  in  your  mouth. 

A    I  don't  know  anything  about  this  form.   I  have  very 
little  comment  on  it.   I  don't  deal  with  them. 

HR.  TIEFER:   Let's  make  this  the  next  exhibit 
number,  they  are  689  through  692. 

I  The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPM-12  for 
identification: ] 

xxxxxxxxxx  INSERT  3-5  xxxxxx***/ 


DNJUJSm 


121 


HIR03U002 


UNCIASSIHED 


PAGE     79 


BY  MR.  TIEFER: 

2    Is  Ton  Hazlett  in  your  departmant? 

A    No. 

2    Ware  you  aware  in  tha  end  of  1985  when  Southern  Air 
Transport  people  were  looking  ior  a  C-123  to  purchase? 

A    I  didn't  know  we  were  looking  to  purchase  an 
airplane . 

2    Okay. 
What  I  an  referring  to  is  not  a  purchase  for  Southern  Air 
Transport  but  a  purchase  by  Southern  Air  Transport  for  the 
use  of  somebody  else? 

A    Oh,  X  was  vaguely  fanlliar  but  not  intimately.   I 
was  aware  o'f  tha  activity. 

2    I  will  show  you  1799  and  I  will  have  to  share  it 
with  you,  copies  have  run  out  at  this  point. 

A    Yes. 

2    Can  you  identify  it? 

A    It  is  an  out  of  date  Southern  Air  Transport 
operations  department  organizational  chart. 

S    Can  you  describe  briefly  what  various  people  on  the 
chart  do  and  if  you  wish  to  make  corrections  as  you  go  along 
to  bring  it  up  to  day,  by  all  means  do  so. 
~  A    Oo  you  want  to  start  with  myself? 

2    Yes. 

A    I  am  senior  vice  president,  operations,  and 


uNcussm 


122 


NAME: 
18143 
1814 14 
18MS 
18146 
1847 
18148 
18U9 
1850 
1851 
1852 
1853 
18514 
1855 
1856 
1857 
1858 
1859 
1860 
1861 
1862 
1863 
186U 
1865 
1866 
1867 


HIR034002 


UNCIASSIFIED 


PAGE    80 


basically  I  an  responsible  iot  technical  services  which  is 
maintenance,  flight  operations,  systems  operations,  for  the 
airline,  most  of  the  production. 

There  is  a  secretary  under  me.  that  is  fairly  obvious. 

2    What  is  her  name. 

A    Janet  Shadow. 

8    She  is  your  secretary? 

A    Yes  . 

2    Paul  Gillcrist — let's  back  up. 
How  long  has  she  been  with  the  company? 

A    Since  July  of  1985. 

2   Who  was  your  secretary  before  then? 

A    X  didn't  have  one..  I  shared,  we  pooled. 

2  Mere  there  several  secretaries  who  worked  for  many 
people  ? 

A  There  were  a  few  but  there  was  one  assigned  to  the 
operations  department  but  I  just  didn't  consider  her  to  be 
my  secretary. 

2    Was  there  one  secretary  who  was  familiar  with  what 
your  secretary  would  not  be  familiax  with?   That  is  sort  of 
what  I  am  asking? 

A    Ko.  I  handled  most  of  it  myself.   I  didn't  get  her 
involved  other  than  just  to  type  a  letter  here  or  there. 
And  I  don't  generate  a  lot  of  paper. 

2    Okay. 


IH^mHEB 


123 


HIR034002 


UNCUSSIHED 


PAGE    81 


Next  person  on  the  chart. 

A    Paul  Gillcrist,  vice  president,  flight  operations. 
He  is  the  chie-f,  the  chiei  pilots  report,  for  the  707  and 
the  Hercules,  report  to  him. 

He  is  in  charge  of  crew  scheduling,  the  crew  scheduling 
department  reports  to  him.   Basically  anything  to  do  with 
flight  crew  members  in  Southern  Air  are  Paul  Gillcrist's 
responsibility.   Any  of  those  matters. 

Q    How  long  has  he  been  with  the  company? 

A    He  has  been  with  us  since,  I  think  Hay  of  1985. 
The  next  person  is,  this  is  incorrect,  lists  Fred  Johnson, 
vice  president  of  technical  services.   He  left  the  company 
in  November  or  December,  I  ^uess,  it  was  early  December,  and 
the  current  vice  president  of  technical  services  is  Kenneth 
Wilson.   And  in  a  nut  shell  he  is  basically  responsible  for 
maintenance  of  the  aircraft,  purchasing,  stores,  quality 
control,  engineering,  and  other  maintenance  related 
activities . 

8    Do  you  know  where  Fred  Johnson  went? 

A    No. 

2    Do  you  know  why  he  left? 

A    It  was  a  mutual  parting  of  ways. 

2    Can  you  explain  that  further? 

A    I  was  unhappy  with  his  performance. 

2    You  say  it  was  mutual? 


mmm 


124 


NAME: 
1893 
1894 
1895 
1896 
1897 
1898 
1899 
1900 
1901 
1902 
1903 
190M 
1905 
1906 
1907 
1908 
1909 
1910 
1911 
1912 
1913 
191U 
1915 
1916 
1917 


HIR03(4002 


UNCLASSinED 


PAGE    82 


A    He  agxeed  that  I  was  unhappy. 

2    There  ate  tuo  other  boxes  on  the  chart. 

A    We  have  C.  Poirson,  known  as  ''Bob''  Poirson> 
director  of  systems  operations. 

Basically,  the  scheduling  o£  the  aircraft  is  Bob's 
responsibility >  the  dispatchers  uho  release  the  flights 
report  to  Bob;  all  daily  flight  activity  that  does  not  have 
to  do  with  maintenance  or  flight  craws  is  Bob  Poirson's 
responsibility.  Set  up  ground-handling  arrangements  in 
various  cities,  fuel,  landing  rights,  traffic  rights,  things 
of  that  nature  fall  under  Bob  Poirson. 

The  last  one  is  Frank  Zerbe,  director  of  maintenance 
administration.   He  is  ombudsman  in  the  maintenance 
department.   He  handles  manpower  requirements,  budgets, 
reviews  purchasing,  customer  bill-backs,  invoices  for 
contract  services,  and  things  of  that  nature,  and  acts  to  a 
degree  as  a  divisional  controller. 

Q    How  long  has  Bob  Poirson  been  with  the  company? 

A    Since  August  of  198>(. 

Q    And  how  long  has  Frank  Zerbe  been  with  the  company? 

A    Fall  of  1985. 

fi    Do  you  have  knowledge  of  a  trip  that  Frank  Zerbe 
mad»  to  purchase  Caribou  aircraft  in  Canada? 

A    Vague  knowledge.   When  he  made  that  trip  he  was  not 
in  that  box.   He  was  manager  of  or  director  of — I  don't  know 


UNCUSSIFe 


125 


UNCUSSIFIED 


NAHE:  HIR03M002      ^--w^l^^^gj  Ikl/      PAGE    83 

his  exact  titla>  but  it  was  a  Buclington  contract  based  in 
Fort  Wayna>  and  Langton  dealt  with  hin  directly  on  these 
trips.   I  had  no  involvement. 

MR.  TIEFER:   Let's  mark  this  as  the  next  exhibit. 
[The  following  docunent  was  marked  as  Exhibit  EPn-13  for 
identification :  ] 

jKxncxxiicxxxx    COHHITTEE    INSERT    3-6    «*«*x***x/ 


UNCussra 


126 


MAKE: 

1926 
1927 
1928 
1929 
1930 
1931 
1932 
1933 
1934 
1935 
1936 
1937 
1938 
1939 
1940 
19U1 
19H2 
1943 
19i4t4 
1945 
1946 
1947 
1948 
1949 
1950 


HIR034002 


UNCUssm 


PAGE  84 


HR.  TIEFER:   I  think  that  will  be  a  convenient 
stopping  point  iot  me. 

The  way  in  which  the  questioning  tends  to  proceed  is,  I 
stop  and  George  Van  Cleve>  who  is  our  Republican  colleague, 
will  take  over. 

THE  WITNESS:   Oh,  good,  we  got  a  Republican  in  the 
room. 

flR.  TIEFER:   Do  you  want  to  go  off  the  record  or 
pick  right  up? 

HR.  VAM  CLEVE:   I  think  I  can  pick  right  up. 

BY  HR.  VAM  CLEVE: 
2    As  Hr .  Tiefer  indicates,  I  am  George  Van  Cleve, 
Deputy  Republican  Counrel  ior  the  House  Committee.   I  have 
only  a  couple  of  brief  questioi...  ''nd  I  have  appreciated  your 
willingness  to  answer  questions. 

I  have  never  been  involved  in  the  airline  business  and  so 
some  of  the  questions  that  I  am  about  to  ask  you  may  seem  as 
though  they  are  not  vary  well  informed,  and  that  is  fine, 
because  I  don't  know  anything  about  this. 

You  have  testified  and  we  have,  of  course,  have  previous 
testimony  from  other  officials  of  your  company,  that  you  all 
perform  trips  carrying  cargo  from  the  United  States  to 
various  points  in  the  Hlddle  East  and,  similarly,  that  your 
company  assisted  in  transportation  for  material  to  Central 
America. 


UNCIASSIRED 


127 


NAME: 
1951 
1952 
1953 
19514 
1955 
1956 
1957 
1958 
1959 
1960 
1961 
1962 
1963 
19614 
1965 
1966 
1967 
1968 
1969 
1970 
1971 
1972 
1973 
19714 
1975 


MUSSM 


HIR0314002WI  llfLflllallfl    lff~ll  PAGE  85 

Is  thete  any  particular  reason  why  if  I  had  that  kind  of 
cargo  to  carry.  I  would  come  to  your  company,  do  you  offer  a 
specialized  service  that  is  not  generally  available? 

A    The  only  service  that  we  offer  that--let  me  answer  it 
this  way.   The  707  trips  there  are  a  number  of  people  that 
offer  comparable  aircraft,  either  707s  or  DC-8s,  so  what  a 
prudent  person  would  do  would  be  to  shop  the  market  although 
we  have  to  give  consideration  to  the  reputation  of  the 
operator,  through  reliability  and  integrity  and  things  of 
that  nature . 

So  price  can't  always  be  the  driving  factor.   I  think  we 
enjoy  a  good  reputation.   We  used  to.   The  Hercules  aircraft 
is  a  different  story.   That  airplane — 

2    If  I  could  stop  you  on  the  707  trips — if  if  I 
understand  your  testimony  correctly,  there  are  a  number  of 
generally  reputable  companies  that  fly  similar  equipment 
that  could  have  performed  those  trips? 

A    Yes. 

8    And  probably  were  generally  competitive  on  price 
since  they  are  in  the  same  business? 

A    I  would  have  to  assume  they  would  be. 

fi  So.  in  short,  it  will  be  your  view  that  the  decision 
to  'come  to  Southern  Air  as  opposed  to  some  other  carrier  was 
not  simply  a  business  decision? 

A    Oh,  that  was  a  decision  made  by  some  one  else.   I 


UNCLASSIFIED 


128 


NAME: 
1976 
1977 
1978 
1979 
1980 
1981 
1982 
1983 
1984 
1985 
1986 
1987 
1988 
1989 
1990 
1991 
1992 
1993 
199M 
1995 
1996 
1997 
1998 
1999 
2000 


HIR03U002 


UNCLASSIRED 


PAGE    86 


can't  speculate  on  that. 

2    I  understand;  but  it  is  your  testimony  that  there 
are  people  in  the  business  who  could  just  as  uell  have  done 
the  job? 

A    Yes. 

MR.  KIRSTEIH:   But  that  is  a  long  way  iron  him 
saying  what  their  reason  for  hiring  SAT  is.   That  is  your-- 
MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   I  understand. 
BY  HR.  VAH  CLEVE: 

Q    I  don't  uant  to  characterize  your  testimony,  but  I 
want  the  record  to  be  clear  that  clearly  from  the  business 
point  of  view,  i£  I  were  looking  for  a  carrier,  I  uould  not 
have  any  difficulty  finding  a  carrier  who  could  do  that 
work? 

A    That  is  correct. 

e    Okay. 
And  you  were  saying  on  the  100-- 

A    The  100  is  a  different  category  altogether.   It  is  a 
unique  airplane  capable  of  carrying  outside  cargo,  loads 
through  the  rearend  so  you  can  get  large  pieces  in  there 
that  you  can't  get  through  the  door  of  a  707,  it  is  a  side- 
loading  door. 

And  there  are  very  feu  commercial  operators  of  the 
aircraft  in  the  United  States.   In  fact,  now  that  we  have 
took  over  Transamerican' s  100  fleet  the  only  U.S.  operator 


UNCUSSIFIED 


129 


NAKI> 

2001 
2002 
2003 
200M 
2005 
2006 
2007 
2008 
2009 
2010 
201  1 
2012 
2013 
20114 
2015 
2016 
2017 
2018 
2019 
2020 
2021 
2022 
2023 
20214 
2025 


HIR03U002 


UNCIASSIFIED 


PA6K    87 


oi. Hatculas  airciait  is  Mark  All  In  Alaska  and  thay  hava 
thzaa. 

Thaia  is  an  opatator  in  Canada  that  has  ona  and  thosa  ara 
tha  only--and  thay  ara  vaty  snail.   So,  thosa  ara  tha  only 
operators  in  North  Anarica.   So,  thara  is  no  conpatition  to 
spaak  of. 

fi    And  tha  prina  consldazation  in  tha  usa  oi  that 
aquipmant  again  just  so  I  hava  it  claar? 

A    Outslda  iraight.   Tha  ability  to  carry  outsida 
freight. 

As  a  sanpla,  this  weekend  we  ilew  a  trip  for  Pratt  Whitney 
iron  Hartford  to  Seattle  and  ue  took  two  jet  engines.   Ko 
other  airplane  in  the  U.S., is  capable  of  carrying  them  other 
than  a  Hero,  or  a  TU?,  but  aconoaics  precluded  chartering  a 
7<47  for  two  engines. 

fi    So  that  in  that  area  of  your  business  a  lot  of  tha 
business  is  dedicated  by  the  fact  that  you  receive  a 
specialized  segment  of  the  market? 

A    Yes.  with  limited  competition. 

2    Earlier  youz  counsel  produced  for  us  a  summary  of 
flights,  these  are  document  numbers  182  1  and  1822,  and  I 
will  show  it  to  you. 

I  believe  it  is  an  exhibit  from  another  deposition.  AS 
you  can  see  it  lists  five  flights  between  ^^^^^Kand  points, 
I  guess,  in  Central  America,  between  January  1985  and  April 


iiNowssm 


130 


KANE: 

2026 
2027 
2028 
2029 
2030 
2031 
2032 
2033 
203U 
2035 
2036 
2037 
2038 
2039 
201(0 
20141 
20M2 
20(43 
20UU 
20145 
20146 
2047 
20148 
20149 
2050 


HIR0314002 


UNCussm 


PAGE         88 


19a6.    You  testified  in  considerable  detail  about  the  first 
two  of  these  flights? 

A    Yes. 

2    And  what  I  wanted  to  ask  uas  simply   if  you  knew 
whether  the  arrangements  for  the  three  other  flights 
involved  similar  cargos  and  were  made  by  the  same  person  or 
persons? 

A    I  didn't  get  involved  in  as  great  a  detail  from  a 
nuts  and  bolts  standpoint. 

2    Let  me  give  you  a  minute,  if  you  want  to  break  it 
up,  or  look  at  it? 

A    No,  I  don't  need  to.   From  a  nuts  and  bolts 

standpoint,'  I  did  not  get  as  involved  in  the  flights  that 

were  subsequent  to  the  Arrow  Air.   The  reason  is,  as  X 

stated  earlier,  that  we  had  limited,  we  had  a  limited  number 

of  people  within  the  company  that  were  aware  of  those  two 

operations. 

It. 
Obviously,  because  we  were  performing  the  serve  ourselves, 

more  people  within  oux  organization  would  have  to  Know  not 

only  crew  members  but  dispatchers  and  everybody  else.   They 

saw  the  airplane  routed  on  the  board,  they  knew  where  it  was 

going . 

So  when  it  got  down  to  the  nuts  and  bolts  on  these  I 

didn't  have  as  much  detail.   X  did  get  involved  in  some  of 

the  planning  earlier  on  not  on  pricing  but  on  aircraft 


mm\m 


131 


NAME: 
2051 
2052 
2053 
20514 
2055 
2056 
20S7 
2058 
2059 
2060 
2061 
2062 
2063 
206M 
2065 
2066 
2067 


UNCUSSIFIED 


HIR03>4002  IIIVItB    Hal.linril  PAGE  89 

availability,    how    would    that    fit    into    our    windows    of 
availabilty ? 

And  that   was  about  the  extent  of  it.   Nothing  too  exotic. 
Q    So  you  don't  know  what  type  of  cargo  was  carried  on 
those  flights  or  have  a  general  idea? 

A    Oh,  one  would  have  to  assume  that  it  is  the  sane 
routing  fron  the  same  people  that  it  was  the  same  cargo. 

2    You  don't  have  any  information  to  suggest  otherwise? 
A    No. 

HR.  VAH  CLEVE:   That  is  really  all  I  have. 
Thank  you.   I  appreciate  your  testimony. 
THE  UITHESS:   Surely. 

HR.'  TIEFER:   There  may  be  a  need  to  depose  you  on 
other  topics  than  the  ones  we  covered  today,  I  think  that 
completes  the  lines  of  questioning  for  today. 
THE  WITNESS:   Okay. 
[Uhereupon,  at  3:30  p.m.,  the  deposition  was  adjourned.! 


ifNcussm 


132 


UNCUSSIFIED 


STATE  OF 
COUNTY  OF 


CERTIFICATE  OF  NOTARY  PUBLIC 


/J  ^.~^. 


(  To-Wit: 


I,  the  undersigned,  a  Notary  Public  in  and  for  the 

County  and  State  aforesaid,  do  hereby  certify  that  the 

witness,   ^t//^  ^JlLLi/^S      /-fULUAAJ 

(Name  of  Witness)       / 

^ (Address)  (Cj 


f^Lo/C/  >Yi 


J>3^ 


(City) 
whose  sworn 


(State)  (Zip) 

testimony  appears  in  the  transcript  of  proceedings  attached 
hereto,  was  first  duly  sworn  by  me  and  placed  under  oath  on 


this 


/^  day  of   /r^^^,. 


^ 


,  1987,  and 


has  on  this  same  date  acknowledge  the  same  before  me  in  the 
State  and  County  aforesaid. 

Given  under  my  hand  and  seal  in  the  City  of 
/77.<rv«i." '  and  State  of  ^ 


on  this  j^^ 


day  of 


f      <r  itr^itniTi 


'T 


1987. 


My  commission  expires: 


^ 


^^  yy     .^»7^~^^ 


(Notary  P«fblic  -  signature) 
(Name  printed) 
(Address  printed) 


(City,  State,  and  Zip  Code) 


'^mxm 


133 


UNCUSSIfl 


?s 


134 


OO 


CO 


135 


l.f,  '^3V  J0//9 


iinmim 


I 


-  /fpii^s  - 


^7ff;r 


>^/*. 


/Jl^Wy^SSJJ^r) 


Bs^oc 


L 


/.?az. 


</^.*y((>V 


ST5- 


PH  Declassified/Released  on^X^Jte^-^  S  8 
under  provisions  of  E  0   12356 
by  K  Johnson,  National  Security  Council 


"i^^^miim 


'W: 


Sflrr    000787 


136 


ONCLASSIFIED 


C»^..)g^       73e«^,/r    A^jter     ^*iil"^j^^^^rr      *  ^ 

I*!.*       >>oJ'i"  L..>,,        7<-*«        p^i  ^*<*-    ^«'-'— «-  fUc.-*. - 

(  Deci3ssitiea/Released  on  ^^-^^-^8%    ■■■II     I     ll^VII-ILlB  '-''-'    ■ 


UNCLASSIFIED 


-'n  iwn  National  Security  Council  W  •  ■  Wfc*  •%/**■■    •  "•  v—TH  I 


137 


p^ 


H1 


UNCLASSIFIED 


Q 


All  p<rioDa«l  laTolTtd  «rrl««d  tn  dpha  on  Prldar  •**ola(.  I  ate 
Seoct  and  totroduetd  hla  to  tha  loadaaatar,  as  that  thara  would 
ba  aoaa  confaranca  on  tha  load.  Tha  follovlag  aornlng  both  ;2J 
and  323  arrlvad  at  alpha  on  achadula.  Tha  crava  latt  tha  hotal 
ao  %%  to  allow  approzlsa talf  1.5  houra  of  praparatloa  prior  to 
dapartura.  Dpon  raachlng  lata  Opa,  I  waa  laforaad  that  Nr.  Thoap- 
aoo  (Cuatoat)  would  not  ba  In  until  Tuaaday,  and  that  I  ahould 
laava  tha  paparvork  with  thaa.  I  had  aoaa  alaglTlnfa  about  thla 
arralgnaant,  but  eoapllad  laavlng  tha  S.E.D.'a  In  an  'ayaa  only" 
anralopa  and  tha  Canaral  Oac'a  attachad.  Dpon  raachlog  planaalda. 
tha  fual  paopla  advlaad  that  If  wa  wlabad  to  pay  for  tha  fual  via 
a  Co.  chack  wa  would  hava  to  pay  hla  auparvlaor.  It  took  iO 
aloutaa  for  thla  gaotlaaan  to  gat  to  tha  aircraft  ae  that  wa 
could  bagin  fuallng.  Whlla  thla  did  not  cauaa  any  dalay.  It 
would  hava  If  avarythlog  alaa  waa  sa  achadula.  Uhlla  all  thla 
waa  taking  placa,  I  waa  advlaad  that  not  only  waa  tha  load  not  on 
the  flald,  but  that  It  waa  not  yat  built  up  bacauaa  of  aoac 
confualon  regarding  ownarahlp  of  tha  pallata  (nobody  wanta  USAF 
property  la  DELTA).  Whan  I  aakad  how  long  thla  would  dalay  ua ,  I 
waa  Inforaad  "three  houra."  They  alao  aald  that  they  were  led  to 
believe  that  wa  would  not  arrive  until  1700.  Hhaa  I  Inforaad  hla 
that  by  ay  calculatlona  It  waa  1730,  ha  aakad  ■•,  "What  kind  of  a 
clock  are  you  working  off  of?" 

Uhlle  all  thla  waa  taking  placa,  ay  qualaa  about  the  General 
Dcc'a  got  the  beat  of  ae  and  I  called  Dick.  Be  aakad  Scott  If  ha 
had  apoken  with  Thoapaon'a  boaa  (alao  briefed)  and  Scott  advlaad 
he  had  been  unable  to  reach  hla.  We  than  triad  to  get  in  touch 
with  Mr.  Thoapion,  but  he  waa  lunching.  Whan  ha  finally  returned 
our  call  (iO  alnutea  later),  he  aald  "Don't  worry,  I'll  have  the 
Bate  Opj  people  algn  the  Deca  for  you."  Thirty  alnutea  later,  I 
waa  handed  one  Gen  Dec  on  which  waa  written  PERMIT  TO  ftOCEED 
OK'D  BY  THOMPSON  OP  U.S.  CUSTOMS  KELLT  API.  Thla  waa  totally 
unacceptable  In  aa  aueh  aa  the  laat  thing  we  wanted  waa  a  parait 
CO  proceed  (laplylng  that  wa  would  need  euatoaa  at  the  next  atop). 
I  called  our  euatoaa  friend  back  and  advlaad  hla  of  our  concern 
end  he  aald  "Seaebody  will  be  there  In  30  alnutea).  Thirty  alnutea 
later,  a  gentleaan  arrived  and  algnad  and  ataaped  our  Dac'e.  To 
thcae,  we  attachad  our  "white"  aanlfaat  for  praaentatlon  to 
Canadian  euatoaa. 

Once  we  were  loaded  It  took  another  30  alnutea  before  we  could 
taxi  due  to  a  nuabar  of  avoidable  clrcuaatancaa :  1)  All  of  the 
freight  for  tha  aacond  aircraft  had  been  placed  directly  behind 
our  aircraft,  2)  the  CPU  ran  out  of  gaa,  3)  tha  alratart  had  a 
dead  battery,  and  A)  no  ground  personnel  to  aarahal  ua.  Once  we 
departed,  the  flight  to  YQX  waa  uneventful  until  wa  arrived.  Aa 
a  raault  of  our  4-hour  dalay  at  alpha,  tha  weather  at  TQX  had 
deteriorated  to  a  very  lew  atata.  Had  wa  departed  on  achadula, 
our  arrlvel  weather  would  have  bean  ao  aaow  and  30  allaa  vlalbl- 
Uty.  Aa  It  waa.  It  waa  lota  of  anew  and  1/2  alia  vlalblllty. 
More  laportantly,  we  were  unable  to  utlllta  thapp|(ir|rvn««T;  fMch 
created  a  takeoff  I  would  Juat  aa  aoon  not  rap^%y|<  'ji  ! ',  |  |  |; 


i^P  Deciassifieo/Released  on    ^  ^Jav\-6 8 
under  provisions  oi  E  0  12356 
Dy  K  Jodnson.  National  Secunty  Council 


UNCUSSIHED 


6RrO0081i5 


sra3 


138 


UNtlASSra 


other  Chan  th«  takeoff,  tti*  trip  to  Ir4*e  wta  ootTtntful.  Upon 
•  rrlT«l,  «•  »*r<  told  to  felIo»  •  *«hlcl«  to  a  raaota  araa  and 
park  oazt  to  tha  ■taalon  aircraft.  Aftar  ahuttlag  4e«p  tha 
anglnaa,  tha  loeala  vary  quickly  oftleadad  tha  aircraft  (IS 
■lautaa)  and  wa  taxlad  tha  aircraft  to  tha  clTlllaa  alda  of  tha 
flald.  Onca  tha  aircraft  «aa  parkad  I  aakad  tha  grenad  haodlar 
for  a  rlda  back  to  tha  aacura  araa  but  vaa  cold  that  would  ba 
lapoaalbla.  I  had  tha  latdowo  charta  for  C  aad  D,  ae  I  coataecad 
Dick  and  aakad  whara  tha  craw  vaa.  Ba  Inferaad  aa  that  thay  vara 
alraady  anrouta  to  tha  aircraft.  I  thao  contacted  Ilchard  at  the 
hotel  aod  advlaad  hla  that  tha  other  SAT  aircraft  (S23)  would 
have  the  aaae  plataa  available. 


TXIP  #1  TO  DELTA  TO  IE  PIOVIDED  IT  LBR  TOOTLE 


TtIP  #2,  SRaVO  TO  CHARLIE 

Wa  returned  to  Hlaal  on  Saturday  night.  On  Sunday  night.  Dick 
called  and  advlaad  ae  that  nagotlatlona  had  been  auccaaaful,  and 
aakad  when  vaa  the  earllaat  we  could  fly  a  aacond  trip.  I 
advlaad  hla  that  If  wa  departed  Hlaal  Monday  night  we  would 
arrive  In  BrAvo  on  Tueaday  evening.  That  would  put  ua  Into 
poaltlon  to  operate  Wadneaday  night;  (tha  ahort  notice  could  not 
be  helped  but  It  forced  ua  Into  having  to  purchaaa  extreaely 
expensive  tickets).  Upon  arrival  In  IrAvo,  wa  were  aet  by  Aalraa 
and  escorted  through  custoas.  Aalraa  was  under  the  lapresslon 
that  we  were  to  operate  that  Tueaday  evening.  I  advlaad  hla  that 
T  thought  that  was  a  alscoaaunlcat Ion  and  that  I  would  check  and 
advlaa.  (An  obvloua  concern  co  ae  waa  arriving  unwalcoae  In  C). 
After  epeaklng  with  Richard,  we  were  told  that  tha  trip  would  not 
go  eeoner  than  Wednesday  night.  I  advised  Aalraa  of  this  and  set 
up  a  aaetlng  the  following  aernlng  to  work  out  the  eea  plan  and 
dlacuaa  the  condition  of  the  aircraft.  The  coa  plan  was  laid  out 
In  auch  the  saae  aanner  aa  the  first  trip.  As  to  tha  condition 
of  the  slrcrafc  we  were  Inforaed  that  tha  Iteae  we  had  written  up 
on  the  first  trip  were  tsken  care  of  with  exception  of  the  Oaegs 
which  apparently  had  checked  out  O.K.   I  then  aal^a^  if  -ttiay  .had 


UNCLASSIFIED 


S«r   000819 


139 


««sm 


chanfcd  th*  till  I  of  th*  aircraft  to  VI-lOX  Inataad  of  cha  IIBOX 
that  had  bean  palatad  lo  arror.  (Our  ratlooal  for  cha  foraar  waa 
chat  It  »aa  froa  larauda,  and  loaocuoua  Call  #  rachar  Chan  cha 
lattar  which  aar  ba  aora  Inflaaatery ) .  Aalraa  aald  chac  It  had 
aot  baan  ehangad  but  what  doaa  Ic  aactar  baeauaa  'for  aa ,  It  la 
BO  problaa.**  Whan  I  loforaad  hla  that  thay  vara  ROt  Cha  paopla 
»a  vara  vorrlad  abouc,  ha  laughad  and  ptoapcly  ehaagad  cha 
aubjacc.  (Ua  dlacovarad  on  our  racuro  Co  Hlaal  ChaC  •  >  rachar 
Chan  a  V  rapraaanta  Chlnal)  That  a«anlaf  ac  approzlaacaly  ItOO  LCL 
an  aaaoclata  of  ttcharda  eallod  and  advlaad  ua  that  wa  vara  on 
for  that  ntfht  and  that  would  Ilka  ua  Co  arrlva  la  C  at  approxl- 
aataly  0700  LCL.  I  told  hla  that  va  veuld  dapart  at  2300  LCL. 
Ooca  Alrboroa,  wa  diacovarad  rachar  quickly  ctaac  Cha  Oaagaa  did 
not  work  proparly.  Dua  to  tha  lack  of  VOI'a  aaroota  va  otlllcad 
cha  radar  to  fellow  tha  ceaat.  (Tha  eencara  waa  chac  vlch  radar, 
wa  wara  announcing  our  praaanca  to  aajbedy  who  alght  ba  llatanlng). 
Va  aada  all  our  Opa'  noraal  calla  aarouta  but  tha  HF  fraquanelaa 
wara  ao  cluttarad  with  traffic  that  we  could  not  hear  cha  raapoaaaa 
for  cha  aoat  part.  About  30  alautaa  out  of  C  we  called  Approach 
Concrol.  They  aaeaed  alldly  aurprlaad  aad  aaked  ue  Co  coetacc 
Delta  Approach  and  aaked  for  a  deaceat.  They  aald  negative, 
continue  toward  C.  Aa  It  waa  clear,  ve  began  our  deacant  aayway. 
After  arrlvel  et  C,  we  were  aet  by  e  auaber  of  offlcera  all 
weacera-cralaed  and  20  or  ao  anllaced  aea  who,  for  ch«  aoac  perc, 
looked  like  ragaaufflaa.  In.addltloa  to  the  Col.  (r-4  tralaed  In' 
the  U.S.)  there  waa  a  gentleaan  beat  deacrlbed  aa  aoae  aort  of 
political  officer  who  aaeaed  to  be  e  peer  of  Che  Col.  (he  wore 
civilian  clochee).  We  had  landed  juat  ac  0700  LCL  aa  Inatructed 
but  the  Col.  adviaed  ua  that  they  had  Juat  heerd  froa  the  headehcd 
that  we  wara  coatng  and  that  they  were  In  the  proceaa  of  acraabllng 
r-i't  whan  they  received  the  call.  I  told  thoa  that  I  believed 
that  waa  a  coaaunlca t looa  problaa  on  Chair  aad  in  aa  auch  aa  we 
had  known  the  night  before.  la  aay  caae,  while  we  were  there,  ue 
were  cordially  treated  and  it  took  thea  approxlaately  3  houra  to 
offload  ua  with  •  U.S.  gov.  liauad  K  loader  chac  waa  on  Ita  laat 
lege. 


SKT 000820 


® 


UNCLASSinED 


140 


UNCLASSIFIED  ^ 

Sea*  ebatrvatlona  vhll*  oa  tb*  trouad  at  C.  km   with  the  first 
trip  tb*  leeala  w*r*  *str*aaly  iat*r*at*d  ia  oar  peiat  of  oricia  aad 
what  aatieaality  w*  w*r*.Tb*v  war*  iaferaad  tbat  oar  peiat  of  eriaia  waa 
*aoa*wb*r*  ia  luropa'.Aa  to  our  aatieaalltr  tit  ia  bard  to  balioT*  tbat 
aaybedy  weald  aot  bav*  kaowe  tbat  w*  war*  Aa*rieaaa.Ia  any  eaaa  tbay 
eoatiaa*d  to  aak.t  told  tb*  'political*  officer  tbat  I  waa  Aaatriaa.aad 
l*aa  tbaa  10  ain'a  lat*r  a  aan  eaa*  over  and  atartad  spaakiaf  very  peer 
Ceraaa  to  ae.In  aa  aucb  as  I  apeak  feed  Ceraaa  I'a  aare  tber  were 
eeafaaed. About  20  aia'a  after  we  arrived  2  f-t'a  took  off. The  aircraft 
bad  BO  azteraal  erdioance.aad  ealir  rolled  aboat  2000  ft  before  tbejr  were 
airborne.  Tbey  were  tone  aprex.  1  br.  aad  upon  return  did  a  nuaber  of 
appreaebes  before  ahutttna  down.Tba  aircraft  appeared  to  be  in  tood 
abap*.  at  l*ast  viaualy.Tba  (round  e^uipaeat  oa  tbe  otber  band  were  in 
varyiDd  atatea  of  diarepair .Tbe  ealiated  aen  aad  officera  aaeaed  to  work 
well  tod*tb*r .Botb  croupe  pitcbad  in  *qually,aad  w*r*  v*ry  *ntbuaiaatie. 


CIAILII  TO 


1Stif9 


Prior  to  atartind  antlaea  we  inferaed  tbe  Col.  tbat  it  wac  very 
iaportaot  tbat  we  be  civen  only  a  cleranee  to  takeoff  froa  tbe  tower. le 
a**a*d  to  uadoratand  tbat  we  wanted  aiaiaal  radio  traffic, aad  said  be 
would  take  ear*  of  tbat  preblea  for  us. After  cleaiac  tbe  carte  door  tbe 
locale  aaked  if  we  would  be  wlllind  to  wait  aaotber  2  bra.inorder  tbat 
tbey  aight  dive  ua  a  tift  of  caviar. I  tbanked  tbea  aad  aaid  tbat  we  were 
expected  to  return  at  a  certain  tiae  aad  tbat  it  would  be  better  if  we 
did  not  wait. Tbey  seeaed  disappointed  but  said  tbey  understood. Instead 
they  prcaented  ua  with  lOlba  of  piatacbioa.Ua  atarted  ea«inee  and  called 
for  a  taxi  claaraac*. Tb*  tow*r  th*n  proc**d*d  to  bav*  10  aia'a  of 
ceav*raation  with  ua  cencornind  wber*  w*  w*r*  aoind  what  airwaya  w* 
wantad  what  callaicn  we  were  uaina  atc.Oue  to  tbe  shear  fruatrstion  of 
daallnd  witb  tbia  paraen  we  aareed  to  aaytbina  tbey  wanted  Juat  to  aet 
airborne  and  atop  all  this  traffic. Once  airborne  tbe  tower  bad  us 
contact  departure  eoatrol . Departure  wanted  aa  to  contact  Delta  center. 
Tbie  we  ianered.aa  we  ianored  their  repeated  atteapts  to  band  as  off  to 
Bahrain  or  Huacat ! I ! Aprox.2  bra.  into  tbe  fliabt.abeaa  tbe  border  of 
Oaan  and  Teaan  we  obaarved  tbe  contrail  of  aa  aircraft  at  about  4SO0O(t 
trav*lina  aucb  faater  than  we  were(we  were  at  .(4  aaeb)  oa  a  beadina  to 
int*rc*pt  ua.Aady  lill  in  1(  hoars  of  flyiaa  addad  10  y*ars  to  bis  lif* 
by  pickiaa  th*  worst  poaalbl*  aoaoat  toloek  out  of  tbe  paaaenaer  window 
to  aiahtaee.At  that  aoaent  a  deaaert  caaJtlqaed  Jaauar  froa  tbe  Oaan 
Airferee  arrived  on  our  riaht  wina.Ubat  be  eaw  waa  a  white  707  rea  ( 
BIBOX  at  an  alt  of  34400ft  juat  outaide  their  FIB. Tbia  ao  doubt  arrouaad 
tb*ir  curioaity,  as  b*  r*aain*d  with  us  for  aprox.  7  ain's.At  on*  point 
I  eaa*  up  on  121. S  and  aakad  bia  as*  Aaaricaa*  aa  t  could  if  w*  eeuld 
h*lp  bia?  I*  r*apended  that  we  need  to  be  careful  of  tbe  artillery  in 
tbe  area. (we  are  not  aura  what  that  aeant)In  any  ease  left  tbe  area 
after  a  tiae  witb  no  further  coaaent . (we  traasaitted  oar  iatercepted 
will  advise  aessaae  via  IF. bat  it  was  asver  received  ia  DTbe  reaaindar 
of  the  trip  was  aoainal . 

Upon  return  to  B  we  were  aiven  a  nuaber  to  eeatact  liehard  in 
Geneva. The  nuaber  we  were  aiven  was  short  one  diait  so  w*  were  unabl*  to 
contact  hia. 

BICORUDATIORS  ^rt^  >»...»«.»^ 

l.B*tt*r  coordination  at  A  . 


UNCIASSIFIED 


I 


141 


UNCLASSIFIED  & 

2. An  alt  airport  (or  TOI 

J.An  und.rotandln*  wltb  th«  folk,  at  C  eone.roln«  ce.  proc.dur.. 

Ana  •ircfAit  sTA. 
4. Stat*  th*  ontlro  eporatlon  out  at    Dl*«o  Carela.(thla  will  allow 

«•  to  (lir  tbo  ootlra  alaaioo  and  eroaa  only  ana  ril. 


[)j;\ ... 

SAf  000822 


iiNtussro 


142 


«HWS«B 


SECtCCT  OATH 


bcv* 


[Bti  ipcciflc 


icBaMl«tf(*  :ie«c«rDln(  *  itailtlv*  cltidfitd  opiritloa  or  ■lailoa 
partalBlni  to  U.S.  Cevataaaac  Spaclal  Actlvlclat.   I  raallia 
chat  thl(  eparaclaa  or  alailaa  It  laeurlty  eltailfltd  wlchla 
tha  taptee*|«  Lawa  e(  eha  Ualcad  Scataa  aad  tha  Raclaaal  $aeu> 
rlty  lagulatlant.   I  htva  baan  advliad  that  tha  lafaraaclaa  I 
hava  ar  will  lala  froa  aa  autherliad  rapraaaacaclva  o(  tha  U.  S. 
Ca*araaaae  which  partala*  ca  thlt  aparatloa  er  alitloa  la  alao 
elaaalflad  uadar  tha  Eaploaafa  Lawa  of  tha  Oaitad  Stataa  aad 
tha  Vatleaal  Saeurlty  tafulatloaa  and  thla  lafocaatloa  la  not 
to  ba  ravaalad  ta  any  unauthorliad  partoat,  fltat,  aftnelaa 
er  ert'aliaclaaa. 

I  aa  ebllgatad  to  protaet  froa  eeaproalaa  whatavar  laferaaclea 
I  BOW  hawa.   Tha  prlaary  aubjacta  to  ba  pretaetad  ara: 

a.  Tha  fact  that  thla  prograa  wat  Inltlatad  or  coaplatad. 

b.  Tha  datall  of  any  coacapt  which  waa  eoaaldarad  or 
davalopad . 

e.   Lltta  of  paraoaaal,  facllltlaa,  ethar  apaclal  atatta 
iBvolvtd  la  thaaa  projactt. 

"I  do  aelaaaly  twaar  er  afflra  that  I  will  aet  dlvulia  to  aayona 
tha  aatura,  (aaaral  er  apaclfle,.e(  tha  alaalaa,  aaal(aaaat, 
leeatleo,  dutlaa,  er  aay  laforaatlea  davalopad  ceac«raln|  chta 
escape  aa  apaelfieally  autherliad  by  the  Matleaal  Ceaanad 
Authority  or  daalgaatad  rapraaaatatlva  ef  tha  apaelflc  ajaacy 
iBwolvad.   I  fjirthar  uBdarttaad  that  thla  each  la  lataadad  to 
apply  for  aa  tadeflalta  period  ef  tlae.* 


twera  aad  aubaerlbad  before  ae 
chta    /f       day  ef  A^jQU       . 


7^,:^  /K<^Pl 


(Slgaatura) 


(Wltn/tO^ 

CONFIOENIIAL 


realtlea  ;^    CLu^^JJ/t^i^^ ^ 

001762       ^^rroo/'>4Z_ 


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hav«    gtlnad    «p«clflc 


knowladf*  ceiic*raln|  •  (•naltlvt  elaidfltd  op«r*tlaa  or  ■litloo 
p«rt«lnla|  ce  U.S.  CovcroBaac  Sptclal  Actlvlcltt.   I  r««llt* 
that  thla  eparatlon  or  alaalen  la  aaeurlty  elaaalflad  wtchln 
tha  Eaplonaga  Lava  of  tha  Unltad  Stataa  and  tha  Matlenal  Sacu- 
rlt7  Kafulaclona.   I  hava  baao  advlaad  chat  tha  iaforaatleo  I 
hava  or  will  (ata  froa  as  authorltad  rapraaancaclva  a(  tha  U.  S. 
CovaTDBant  which  partalaa  to  thla  oparacloa  or  alaaloa  la  alao 
elaaalflad  uodar  tha  Eaploaafa  Lawa  of  tha  Unltad  Stataa  and 
tha  Natleaal  Sacuclty  lagulatloaa  aed  thla  laforaatloo  la  not 
to  ba  ravaalad  to  any  unauchorliad  paraona,  flraa,  aianclaa 
or  ergaalaacloaa. 

I  aa  oblltacad  to  pretaet  froa  eoaproalaa  whatavar  loforaatloo 
I  now  hava.   Tha  prlaary  aubjacta  to  ba  protactad  ara: 

a.  Tha  fact  that  thla  prograa  waa  Inltlatad  or  coaplacad. 

b.  Tha  datall  of  any  coacapt  which  waa  coaaldarad  or 
davalopad . 

c.  Llaca  of  paraoaaal,  facllltlaa,  othar  apaelal  aaacca 
lavelvad  In  thaaa  prejaeta. 

"I  do  aelaaaljr  awaar  or  afflra  that  I  will  aot  dlvulga  to  anyona 
tha  aacura,  gaearal  or  apaclflc,.of  tha  alaaloa,  aaal|oaaat, 
locacloa,  duClaa,  or  aay  laforaatlea  davalopad  coacatalag  thaa 
ascapc  aa  apaelfteally  authorliad  by  tha  Ratleaal  Ceaaaad 
Authority  or  daalgnatad  rapraaaatatlva  of  cha  apaclflc  agaacy 
lavelvad.   I  fjirthar  uadaracaad  that  thla  oath  la  lataadad  to 
apply  (ot  aa  ladaflalta  parled  of  tlaa." 


twora  aad  aubaerlbad  bafora  aa 


thla        /^         day   of    /^^ 


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(Slgaati/ra) 


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under  provisions  o(  E  0  12356 
By  K  Jorinson.  Nalional  Security  Council 


OPBJUTIONS 

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OF   THIS   SET-UP  BO    INTO   TRIP   FOLDER  ALONG  WITH  FLIGHT 

PLANS   AND   WEATH 

CC/A1.L   0N..0OD  ■■^HH>ONE   BY   CHARTERER,!  

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S,9-r  ooi'^'^'^ 


.     2  ^4«?-&8 

Partally  Oeclassit.ed/Rel^asea  on— ^ -— - 

unoer  provisions  ot  E  0  12356  ''B 

by  r  Jonnson,  National  SecunW  Council  ■mi 


160 


PfCUSSIFia 


ROWJtIR 


ACHtlMIlIT    or    AIUCIUfT    CHAHTIH 

«TT»CHWt»T    *A* 

ADDITIOWAL  COTHACT  TlKWl  AaO  COWOITIOIIS 


■otwithstandlnq  any  tcrai  and  eonditloni  ttatad  alsavhar*  in  this 
contract,  tha  followlnf  additional  tara*  and  eondltiona  will  applyi 

18.   Chartarar  aqraaa  that  thl*  flight  la  to  ba  oparatad 
on  tha  following  achadula  (all  tlaaa  SHT) 

Aircraft  will  ba  poaitlenad  for  loading  at 
LIS  approxiaataly  0«OOS/Mareb  17. 


Dap 

■ 

P3S91 

March 

17 

Arr 

SNA 

03002 

March 

18 

Dap 

SMA 

0400Z 

Arr 

ANU 

093OZ 

Dap 

ANU 

10302 

Arr 

■ 

Il330l 

Aircraft  to  ba  offloadad  at  daatlnation  and 
raady  to  dapart  by  lC30Z/March  18. 

Chartarar  agraot  that 'ahoold  tha  cargo  not  ba  avallabla 
»t    origin  in  aufflclant  tlaa  to  load  and  dapart  within 
thraa  (3)  houra  of  achadula,  Carriar  haa  tha  right  tu 
raturn  tha  aircraft  to  Ita  baaa  of  oporatlons. 

Should  thla  happan,  Chartarar  agraat  that  Carriar  ahall 

ttlad  to  chargaa  for  positioning  an^d  dapoait lonir.g 
at  tha  rata  of  }4,700.00  par  block  hoar. 


(coatlnuad) 


5,<  001750 


7985  K  W.  I2tti  SU«a«  •  Wivnl.  Flortda  UI26-ia99 
TaltpNina  309   9M-«aO  •  Ta«a<  SZSOO  •  SHa:  MIAOOJW  •  CaMc  'Arrow  AJr"  ^ 


UNCLASSIREO 


Partially  Declassified/Released  on 


z<^a^'i2> 


undei  provisions  ot  E  0   12356 
by  K  Johnson.  National  Security  Council 


161 


IfilffiSiFIEfl 


ACRtEMENT  Of  klRCKArT  CHAKTER 

ATTACHMENT  "A" 

ADDITIONAL  CONTRACT  TERMS  AND  CONDITIONS 


21.  Ch«rt«r«r  ihill  b*  rcipondbl*  for  providing  to  C«rrier 
a  complat*  <nd  actual  aanifaat  of  cargo  to  b«  carriad 
on  thia  flight,  at  wall  at  any  othar  documan ta tion 
requirad  by  countriat  of  origin  and  dattination.   Should 
tha  docuaantation  not  ba  accaptabla  to  tha  pilot  in 
command,  tha  pilot  may  daclina  to  oparata  tha  flight  and 
Carriar  will  ba  antltlad  to  collact  tha  chargat  tat  forth 
in  point  20  aboTa. 


ARROW  AIR,  INC. 
David  M.  Sowart,  Vlca  Pratidant 


iU^  J- 


SOUTHERN    AIR    TRANSPORT,     INC. 


/rtfj: 


5AT 


0U1751 


'^mminL 


S/4-r-  roi')<r/ 


wmm 


162 


.  SjOyTREM!  AIR  TKAMSPOtT.    INC. 

mpfiED. 

Dae*  Of  Onckr/^tt^       //       /fg-^ 


i/km    ron:   >^/W"7^ 


Pay  to  tha  Ordar 

Aaount  of  Purchaaa: 

Purehaaa  Ordar  I  

Alrwayblll  f 

DapartBcnt 

Charia  to  Account  #  ^   

Approved  by:    /  f     /Oi i.'w-*-^)— 
Raouattad  by:  


(For  Accounting  Uaa  Only) 

Chack  No.   iSl  3  chack  Data:   |— l^'F-' 

Banks:     S.E.  Hat'l  flrat  Hat'l  ChlcaRO  t^ 


CHECK  REQUEST 

Data  Of  Chack:  I-  XP-S  f 

Pay  to  tha  Ordar  of    l^^^r^j.J  f\  .  r- 

cha—  *'•*  ■* 

Purchaaa  Ordar  I 
Altvayblll  f 
Daparcnenc 


A-ount  Of  Purcbaaa:  i;2i,^F0R:  _iS_:rW__Xw^ 
Purchaaa  Ordar  I  1 


Charga  to  Account  #     n^^r...^ 


~    ^^umimL 


Approved  by: S^    001752 

Raquaacad  by:  — ^  /~ 


(For  Accountlnii  Uaa  Only) 
Chack  No.    l^^l 


■■>f-^i^    U) 


"•nka:  S.E.   Nat'l  _  rir.t  N.fl  o., .  OCl')rU 


Flrat  Nat'l  ChlcaRo 


UNCLASSIFIED 


Partially  OeclassitieO/Released  on_ZS'<^«uvv  88 
under  pronsions  of  E  0   r2356 
by  K  Johnson^  National  Secunty  Council 


163 


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under  Ofovisions  o(  E  0  12356 
by  K  Johnson,  National  Secuniy  Council 


SS'3© 


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PISIJI^T^ 


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SOUTHERN  AIR  TRANSPORT.  INa 


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171 


TRANSCRIPT 
OF  PROCEEDINGS 

CONFIDENTIAL 

UNITED    STATES    SENATE  ^ 

COpM      ^  SELECT   COMMITTEE    ON 

SECRET   MILITARY   ASSISTANCE    TO 
IRAN   AND   THE   NICARAGUAN   OPPOSITION 


'^"iwfeiiawBM 


DEPOSITION   OF  ALEX  G.    NAGY 


A   L 


Washington,  D.  C 


YOU 


Wednesday,  March  18,  1987 

^  rtially  Declassified/Released  on    /■^-'^■^~  ^7 
under  provisions  of  E.O.  12356 
by  N.  M.nan,  National  Security^^i^^^j^L  REPORTERS,  INC. 

Sttnctypc  Rfputten 
444  North  Capitol  Street 
Wuhington,  D.C.  20001 

(2(5)  347-3700 
Nsfeionwidc  Coverage 

800-336-6646  ^jgp^ 


CR20336.1 
COX/sjg 


2 
3 
4 
5 

6 

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8 
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172 


UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION  OF  ALEX  G.  NAGY 

Washington,  D.  C. 
Wednesday,  March  18,  1987 

Deposition  of  ALEX  G.  NAGY,  called  fcr  examination  by  the 
Senate  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran 
and  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition,  at  the  Old  Executive  Office 
Building,  Seventeenth  Street  and  Pennsylvania  Avenue,  N.W. , 
Room  115,  at  12:15  p.m.  before  WENDY  S.  COX,  a  Notary  Public 
within  and  for  the  District  of  Columbia,  when  were  present: 


CAMERON  H.  HOLMES,  ESQ. 

Associate  Counsel 

Senate  Select  Committee 

Hart  Senate  Office  Building 

Room  SH-901 

Washington,  D.  C.   20510 

On  behalf  of  the  Committee. 


ALAN  CHARLE  RAUL,  ESQ. 

Associate  Counsel  to  the  President 

The  White  House 

On  behalf  of  the  Deponent. 


iNCUSSIFIE 


--  continued   — 


Ace-Feder.\l  Reporters,  L\c. 


173 


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APPEARANCES  (Continued) 


ARNOLD  INTRATER,  ESQ. 

General  Counsel 

Office  of  Administration 

Room  48  0 

Old  Executive  Office 

Building 
17th  Street  &  Pennsylvania 

Avenue,  N.W. 
Washington,  D.  C. 


ALSO  PRESENT: 


DENNIS  TETI 

CLARK  B.  HALL 

Investigators 

House  Select  Committee 


AcF-FfOPTPat    PTrr><->T?-ruPQ    Tvr 


174 


II 


)OiniL.y 


HOo 


CONTENTS 


z 

WITNESS 

3 

4 

Alex 
by 

G. 

Mr 

Nagy 
Holmes 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10  , 

11 

12  ; 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

la 

19 

20 

1 

21 

* 

52 

EXAMINATION 


Ace-Feder.\l  Reporters,  Ixc. 


175 


30  226.  I 
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2  2 


PROCKEDXNGS 
Whereupon, 

ALEX  NAGY 
was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  Cirst  beeii  duly  sworn, 
was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

MR.  RAUL:   If  I  could  just  make  in  opening  --  soitie 
opening  poi  nts . 

MR.  H0LME3  :   'iure. 

MR.  RAUL:   I  want  to  note  that  Mr.  Nagy  is  ' 
appearing  here  voluntarily  pursuant  to  the  letter  request 
submitted  by  the  Senate  Select  Committee  signed  by  Chairmari 
Inouye  and  Vice-chairman  Rudmaii. 

Mr.  Nagy,  beside  myseJC  is  Arnoid  Tnt.rater, 
counsel  for  the  Office  of  Adminis  trati(3n.   This  deposition 
wiJJ  be  unclassified,  so  that  should  any  classified  matters 
arise,  in  your  opinion,  if  you  (:ould  just  indicate  that  nhat 
might  come  up,  we  will  go  off  the  record  and  figuie  out  how 
to  provide  that  information  in  another  matter.   Although  I 
don't  anticipate  that  there  would  be  any  subjects  falling 
into  that  category,  but  just  so  that  it  is  clear  that 
classified  information  won't  be  discvissed  during  the 
deposition.   Thank  you  very  much  Lor  giving  us  this 


^AceTederal  Reporter: 


lceT^deral  Reporters,  Inc. 


176 


30226.1 
COX 


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3 

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7 

a 

9 

in 
II 

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opportuni  ty . 


wmsiff 


EXAMINATION 
Blf  MR.  HOLMES: 

Q     Mr.  Ndgy,  would  you  please  atate  your  name. 

A     Alex  G.  Nagy. 

Q     What  is  your  employment  title? 

A     I  am  the  director  ot:  the  Whitu  Hejuse  and  Excjcu  I:  i  ve 
Office  of  the  President  telephone  services. 

Q     How  long  have  you  had  that  position? 

A     Since  November  197fl. 

Q     Have  you  ever  had  your  deposition  liakon  beCon;? 

A     No,  T  have  not. 

Q     I  want  you  to  just  relax  and  listen  to  the 
questions.   If  you  don't  understand  a  cjuestion,  sto^j  me,  and 
I  will  rephrase  the  question  or  ask  anothet-  question. 

A     All  right. 

Q  If    you    don't    stop    me,    I    will    assume    tfiat    you 

understo(5d    it;     is    that    fair? 

A  Yes,    sir. 

Q  You  have  to  answer  audibly  so  that  she  can  take 
down  your  re;?ponse.  She  is  instructed  not  to  try  and  tead 
your  nods  or  your  facial  expressions,  just  the  words,  tlo  you 


,  Inc. 


Nationwide  Coverage 


sno-nft-<wwi 


177 


30226.  1 
COX 


ONCUSSiriED 


1 

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4 
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6 
7 
8 
9 
10 

u 

12 
13 
M 
15 
16 
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understand? 

A     Okay. 

Q     If  we  get  into  highly  technical  areas,  I  would 
like  you  to  l:ry  and  speak  down  to  as  general  an  audience  as 
you  possibly  can,  so  we  can  understand  the  phraseology,  take; 
the  time  necessary  to  translate,  if  you  would,  please.   Is 
that  okay? 

A     Yes. 

Q     I  wonder  if  you  could  describe  in  general  the 
White  House  system  ovex-  which  you  have  control? 

A     Basically  it  is  the  White  House  administrative 
teleph<3ne  system,  which  encompasses  the  White  House  and 
Executive  Office  oC  the  President  agencies  within  tfie  18 
acres  of  the  compound.   The  system  is  a  telephone  system 
which  we  call  on-premises,  on-site  location.   It's  in  tlie 
basement  of  the  Old  Kxecutive  Office  Duilding.   It  providej 
telephone  service,  telephone  lines,  throughout  the  complex, 
approximately,  I  would  say,  1000  telepliono  lines  are  utili'/ed 
on  the  system. 

Q     4000  ilifferent  telephones? 

A     Telephone  lines,  the  circuit  numbers,  Mnci.T,  like 
four,  five,  six  for  one  floor,  wh.itever.   The  instruments. 


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now,     |-.he    telephone    instruments,    you   pr<5bably    ccjuld    roughly  I 

i 

double,  say,  QOOO  telephone  instruments  throughout  the        I 

i 
complex.  j 

I 

Q     Who  provides  the  instrumentation?  j 

A  The  instrumentation  is  provided  by  the  AT&T. 

Q  Who  provides  the  1 ine  service?                     I 

A  C&P  Telephone  Company.                              I 

Q  Under  what  kind  of  arrangement  is  the  line  service 

provided  by  C&P?                                                 I 

A  It's  on  a  lease-type,  it's  a  lease  with  C&P  and 

AT&T.   Bol.h  are  uivier  lease.   It's  been  in  ex  is  tonce  ,  3  ince 

day  1  at  the  White  House,  way  back  before  my  time.             ; 

Q  Tlie  leaae-type  system  was  in  efL'ect  prior  to 

November  of  '70? 

i 
A     Yes. 

i 
Q     Is  that  pursuant  to  a  contract  that  is  renewed 

yearly? 

A 

Q 

A 


No,  it  is  not  renewed  yearly. 

What  is  l.he  term  of  the  contract? 

As  Car  as  I  know,  a  lifetime  contract,  unless  it's 


changeil  by  us.   It  h.i.-;  to  do  with  securii.y  aspects  to  l.he 
Secret  Service.   The  on-premines  telephone  switch  was  put  in 


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place  at  the  White  Housu  aCter  the  President  Kennedy 
assassination.   It  was  mandated  by  the  Warren  Coininission  that 
we  havo  an  on-premise  telephone  switch  here  Eor  security 
purposes  . 

Q     Do  the  security  purposes  affect  the  way  the  phone 
system  monitors  itself  for  billiny  purposes? 

A     No,  it  does  not. 

Q     Does  the  White  House  switch  operate  as  a  regular 
commercial  switch  would  for  those  purposes? 

A     Yes,  in  essence,  it  would. 

Q     So  that  if  a  long  distance  calJ  is  made  from  here, 
a  biiling  entry  is  created  in  relation  to  that  particular 
call? 

A     That's  correct.   The  biJling  comes  fiom  ATST  feu 
.long  distance. 

MR.  RAUL:   Is  that  in  every  case,  Mr.  Nagy? 
THE  WITNESS:   It  is  only  in  cases  where  you  dial 
9,  then  the  area  code.   And  then  a  bill  will  be  generated 
monthly  designating  where  that  call  —  what  number  originati^d 
that  call,  the  numbers,  the  duration  of  time  and  the  cost, 
just  like  if  you  were  home  placing  a  long  distance  telephone? 


call. 


INCUSSIFIEO 

Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 


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1  BY  MR.  HOLMES: 

2  Q     How  many  other  ways  are  there  o£  making  a  long 

3  distance  call?  ! 

4  A     Within  the  continental  United  States,  the  FTS       I 

5  system,  the  Federal  Telecommunications  System. 

1 

6  Q     Is  that  only  other  way  other  than  dialing  a  9  and  j 

7  tl\e  area  code?  i 

8  A     Hell,  there  are  ways  --  let  me  defiirie  a  little     i 

9  further  about  the  long  distance.   If  someone  originates  a 

10  call  ill  their  office  by  dialing  9  and  0,  it  automatically  is  i 

11  processed  tlirough  the  long  distance  outside  our  capabilities,  j 

12  where  the  bill  is  originated,  coming  back,  showing  you  that   j 

I 

13  number.   It  they  dial  zero  and  get  U\s   White  Hou:ie  | 

14  switchboard  operating,  then  the  telephone  switchboard 
L5  operator  would  place  the  call  for  the  individual.   The 

16  billing  number  would  come  back  reflecting  the  main  numbtir  at 

17  the  White  House,  456-1414. 

18  Q    Undei-  what  circumstances  do  people  use  the  main 

19  switchboard  operator  to  generate  their  long  distance  phone 

20  calls? 

21  A     Usually  —  well,  the  majority  of  calls  for  your 

22  senior  officials  in  the  administration  are  placed  by  the 


yMEU&SIIiL ... 


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1  operator,  where  they  would  get  the  operator  directly  by 

2  either  dialing  zero  or  have  a  direct  line  to  the  switchboard 

3  oCt  of  the  switchboard,  where  they  would  ask  the  oper.itor  to 
1  process  the  call  Cor  them. 

5  <2  ^o,    Cor  the  senior  c^nCicials ,  therr;  is  no  record 

61  of  where  the  call  originated  as  far  as  AT&T  is  concerned? 

7  A     Not  unless  it's  dialed  directly  from  their 

bI  telephone. 

9  Q     Yos,  because  i J.    they  were  through  the  operator, 

10  they  simply  reflect  tlie  I^Se-lAll  origination? 

11  A    That  js  correct. 

12  Q    Within  the  system  here  on  the  U3  acrus,  wh.it 

13  record  is  generated  of  the  origination  of  calls  that,  in 
11  fact,  go  through  the  operator? 

]5  A     Th^re  is  no  record. 

Id  Q     Now,  is  the  White  House  staff  monitored  as  to 

17  possible  abuses  of  the  telephone  system,  excessive  long 

la  distance  time? 

19  A     The  only  way  that  they  are  monitored,  the  monthJy 

20  bill,  which  t  get  the  monthly  biU.   In  turn,  I  more  or  less 

21  do  an  analysis  on  the  bill,  to  see  what  time  the  call  is 

22  placed,  location,  so  on.   Then  we  query  that  office.   And  if 


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1  there,  is  some  questionable  liotibt  .ibout  the  call. 

2  Q     My  question  is  how  do  you  know  which  otfice  to 

3  query? 

4  A     There  is  no  way  to  know  from  the  switchbocird,  i  1; 

5  it  just  <lesignates  the  number  oC  the  office,  tliat's  the  way. 

6  There's  no  way  on  the  switchboard  you  would  know  where  it 

7  originated  from,  because  it  goes  to  the  1411  bill. 

8  Q     So  the  senior  officials,  in  effect,  have  carte 

9  blanche  on  their  long  distance  calls? 

10  A     Yes .  ^- 

11  MR.  RAUL;   Mr.  NeKjy,  are  there  any  temporary 

12  records  that  are  kept  that  you  use  for  jujt  —  just  to  make 

13  sure  that  the  telephone  company  hasn't  made  any  mistakes? 
U  THE  WITNESS:   Weil,  the  operator  tiliflt-oafea 
\S  1  i  ttle' ticket  f «as~  the  long  distance  calls,  and  this~i«-> 

16  basically  an  in-house  operation.   You  utilize  mostly  foi-  — 

17  say  the  call  did  not  go  through,  for  some  reason  or  another 

18  it  was  busy  or  whatever.   They  would  then  ask  if  the  person 

19  placing  the  call,  if  they  would  like  for  them  to  keep  on 

20  trying  that  call  till  they  got  through.   That  is  a  daily -Jiype 

21  record  that  is  kept  by  the  operations  of  the  operator.   T  do 

22  keep  tlie  tickets  for  the  liing  distance  calls  that  are  piaccil. 


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:y  .iccrutatu 


IS  gone 


when  I  match  it  up  to  the  lon.j  distance  bill  to  a.sur..  that 
that  call  actually  did  go  through.  Cor  paying  purposes. 
BY  MR.  HOr.MES: 
Q     How  long  do  you  keep  track  of  those? 
A     Usually  it's  a  month,  because  it's  pr.ett^ 
to  get  a  bill  within  a  month's  period. 

Q     Arc;  there  except  iojis  to  the  one  month? 
A     There  may  be,  on  occasion.   I  think  it  has 
two  montlis  at  the  most. 

Q     Have  you  impounded  any  particular  months  for  your 
own  internal  information  or  any  external  requests  over  the 
last  year? 

A     No,  I  have  not. 

Q    So  ail  you  have  on  hand  now  is  perhaps  ihi:  last' 
mcjnth  or  so? 

A     Right,  February,  I  would  say,  yes. 
Q     What  do  those  tickets  Look  like? 
A     They  are  manufactured  by  GSA.       There  are  a 
standard  toil  ticket  type.   It  has  information  —  the  number 
the  call  is  coming  from,  the  party  placing  the  call,  the 
number  they  are  calling  and  the  location,  state  or  whatever, 
the  country.   The  time  that  the  call  was  placed.   They  put 


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1  the  time  down,  when  it  was  connected. 

2  Q     What,  do  you  do  with  those  tickets  on  a  monthly 
"5  basis  oC  where  are  they  stored? 

4  A     I  have  thera  down  in  my  office. 

5  Q     Yon  keep  then  in  your  office? 

6  A     Yes. 

7  Q     Yovi  collect  them  from  the  various  operators? 

8  A     Yes.   They  are  k-^pt  in  the  operational  area  till 

9  the  end  of  the  month.   The  first  of  the;  month,  T  take  thctm. 

10  Because  we  cjet  the  bill  in  around  the  10th  ot    the  month,  the 

11  long  distance  bill,  we  usually  get  it.   That  is  for  the 

12  preceding  month. 

13  Q     Let's  discuss  the  FTS  calls.   How  are  they 

1 

11  arranged? 

15  A     Okay.   The  fTS  calls,  t  fiere  are  no  rcicords  of  FTf; 

16  calls  at  the  White  House,  since  the  sensitivity  ot    the  switch 

17  and  Secret  Service  interest  in  it.   In  order  to  have  a 
113  record,  GSA  wanted  to  put  some  metering  devices  in  their 

19  switch  so  they  could  get  the  information  that  they  needed. 

20  This  is  back  in,  I  believe  it  was  in  July  of  'Q4  they  came  up 

21  with  that  request.   Secret  Service  would  not  honor  that.   So 

22  tlie  way  that  we  are  billed  for  FTS  calls  is  basically  by  the 


\mmii 


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1  use  oe  the  trunks.   We  have  55  FTS  trunks  in  our  telephone 

2  switch.   A  random  survey  is  puJJed  on  the  usage  of  that 

3  i.runk,  broken  down  into  minutes  per  month  that  it  is  used. 

4  That  information  is  provided  to  GSA  by  C&P  Telephone 

5  Ccjmpany. 

fi  Q     Explain  the  billing  mechanism  then.   CSP  does  sort 

7  of  a  spot  check  random  usage? 

8  A     Yes.   Whenever  GSA  goes  to  CS.P  and  requests  the 

9  usage  of  the  trunks,  C&P  provides  the  information  during  tnat 

10  time  period  that  they  are  requesting  on.   It's  usually  in 

11  minutes  in  the  day  or  montli  that  it's  utilized. 

12  Then  we  are  billed  basically  J  i  !<e  on  a  flat  rate 
11  basis.   It's  a  physical  year  billed  as  genera  tiir  for  the 

H  usage  of  the  55  trunks  at  the  White  flouse. 

15  Q     GHA  allocates  a  budgetary  tran>3fer  frcim  White 

16  House  budget  to  general  fund  on  the  basis  of  that  data? 

1.7  A     Yes.   Well,  when  we  get  --  when  I  get  the  bill, 

10  the  bill  comes  to  me,  1    further  break  it  down  on  a  pro  rata 

19  basis.   What  I  mean  by  pro  rata,  based  upon  the  amount  of 

20  lines  that  each  agency  has  with  the  KTS  capability  on  it. 

21  Q     How  many  agencies  are  you  talking  about? 

22  A     We  are  talking  about  17. 


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i  .Q  Is    Lhere   a    list    soinewhere    ot:    ail    ot    these? 

2  AT    couia    provide    a    Jist.       COP,    0MB. 

3  MR.    RAUL:       I    am    sure    there    is.       In    fact,     it    must 

4  be    in    the    Code    of    Federal    Regulations.       Jvist    the    agencies 

5  within    the    Exectitive   OEt'ice    ot    the    Pres  ideii  I.? 

6  THE    WITNESS:       Yhs  .       Within    our    complex.       There    <-ire 

7  .some    otitside    oi;    our    complex. 

8  BY    MR.     HOLMES: 

9  Q     These  are  all  agencies  within  the  Executive  Office 

10  oC  tlie  President? 

11  A     Yes  within  our  compound,  the  18  cicr(-s  hctre. 

12  Q     Then  you,  in  turn,  make  the  billing  ti5  eacli  oi! 

13  those  17  agencies  as  based  ori  a  pro  rata  share? 

14  A     Then  on  the  pro  rata,  I  provide  the  percentile 

15  back  to  GSA,  who  in  turn  bills  the  agency  on  a  quarterly 

16  basis. 

17  Q     GSA  bills  each  agency  direct? 
lU  A    Correct. 

19  Q     I  assume  that  from  time  to  time  people  cali  the 

20  White  House  with  harassing  or  threatening  intentions? 

21  A     Yes,  just  abovit  everyday. 

22  Q     I  assume  that  you  have  made  provisions  for  that  in 


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your  telephone  system? 

A     We  have  procedures  for  that,  yes 


16 


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Q     You  wouldn't  have  any  knowJedye  at    any  particular 
projects  t-.hat  may  or  may  not  have  tal<«n  pLai:« 
in  the  NSC  StaCC  files? 

A     No. 

Q     Do  you  have  pay  phones  on  the  premise? 

A     Yes ,  we  do . 

Q     How  are  those  managed? 

A     Basically  just  like  ail  l".l>e  oi-.her  pay  phones. 
They  are  usually  on  each  Cloor,  I  think,  at  the  end  of  the 
hall.   You  pay  your  25  cents  or  20  cents,  whatever  it  is,  .ini: 
make  your  phone  rails  on  them.   Just  like  any  other  pay 
phone. 

Q     Are  those  routed  through  your  White  House  switch? 

A     No,  l:hey  are  commercial  lines.   They  don't  yo 
through  our  switch. 

Q     They  are  completely  separate  and  apart,  from  your 
system? 

A     Correct. 

g     They  would  be  accounted  for  in  the  same  manner  as 
any  other  pay  phone  in  the  District? 

A     That's  correct. 


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1  Q  Through  whatever  the  switcth  and  computer  line  or 

2  system  that  CSP  has? 

.3  A     That's  correct. 

4  Q     Are  there  any  records  oC  —  are  there  any 

5  electronic  recordkeepiny  systems  in  place  on    any  Whlto  H<3U3e 

6  telephones? 

7  A     No,  tl^ere  are  not. 

8  Q     Are  you  talking  about  within  your  system  at  all? 

9  A     I  am  talking  within  the  system  Lliat  we  have  hero 

10  on  our  premises,  the  telephone  lines  Cor  the  KOB  and  Wtiite 

11  House  go  through. 

12  MR.  RAUL:   I  assume  you  understand  that  all  of 

13  Mr.  Nagy's  answers  are  to  his  knowledge.   I  am  injt  implying 
I 

14  anything  else,  but  only  that  it  is  clear  that  Mr.  Nagy  is 

15  responding  as  to  what  he  knows  about  that  comes  under  his 

16  jurisdiction.   I  am  not  suggesting  that  there  are  other 

17  matters,  only  that  this  should  be  clear. 

18  BY  MR.  HOLMES: 

19  Q     Let's  narrow  it  down  to  what  you  know  about  it, 

20  okay? 

21  A     Basically,  it  gets  to  be  in  a  technical  area  which 

22  I  am  not  that  expertise  in,  when  we  are  talking  about  the 


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21 


1  telephone  switch  itself.   May  ot:  List  year,  the  end  of:  May, 

2  the  last  day  in  May,  the  present  telephone  switching  center 

3  was  implemented  in  the  bottom  ot    this  basement.   They 

1  replaced  an  old  manual  --  Number  5  cross  bar  switch,  best  way 

5  tu  describe  it,  the  termincj  logy ,  it's  a  manual  I'.ype.   Th<: 

f  present  system  is  called  DMS-100,  digital  teJepfione  switch. 

7  That  was  activated  end  ot   May  ot    last  year. 

8  The  primary  reason  for  the  activation  of  it  was, 

9  of  course,  the  old  obsolete  one  was  really  detrimentaL  in 

10  maintaining  it.   They  ran  out  of  parts,  quaJified  people  and 

11  so  c)n.   So  the  n«w  switch  utiliiies  a  state  of  the  art 

12  technology,  less  people  to  man  it,  and  the  whole  salesmanship 

13  that  tliey  give  you  with  it. 

H  Now,  the  new  switch  has  certain  capabilities  in  i  r. 

15  that  could  be  offered  to  a  subscribed  use,  detailed  call 

16  recording,  for  one,  where  it  gives  you  information  on  eveTy 

17  call  that  is  placed  from  the  telephone  going  outside  of  the 

18  complex,  nothing  internal. 

1.9  In  order  to  implement  that  in  this  switch,  which, 

20  really,  in  our  needs  at  the  White  House,  there  is  no  useful 

21  purpose  for  it,  you  would  have  to  purchase  additional 

22  equipment,  you  would  have  to  go  into  an  additional  l«-asing 


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L  requirement,  leaaintj  time,  what  they  call  time  shared  otf:  ol= 

2  the  switch  from  C&P,  e.t    cetera.   We  are  talking  a  rough 

3  estimate  oC  maybe  100,01)0  to  $lbO,000  to  do  that.   Contrary 

4  to  what  they  say  about  electronics,  that  you  utjli/.e  losr. 

5  people,  that's  not  true,  you  would  have  to  have  more  people 

6  to  maintain  records  and  everything  else. 

7  There  was  no  need  Cor  the  --  tliere  is  no  need  for 

8  it  here  at  the  White  House,  trj  have  that  type  of 

9  recordkeeping. 

10  Q     So  you  elected  not  to  have  it? 

11  \  Yes,  like  numerous  othor  subscribers  iU;o  liave 

12  it. 

13  Q     Sure.   Are  employees  of  the  Whi  tt.;  Ho\ise  instructed 
11  to  keep  phone  logs  of  their  own  pliones  and  'tails? 

15'  A     There  have  been  cases  where  it  got  info  the 

16  political  area  during  campaign  time,  where  they  ire 

17  performing  a  dual  function,  maybe,  on  a  political  campaign     | 

i 

18  trail  and  so  on,  where  they  were  making  calls  from  their      | 

i 

19  office  where  they  were  keeping  records  and  making  ] 

20  reimbursements  for  that,  the  National  Democratic  Comiiii  t  ti.-e  or 

21  National  Republican  Committee  would  keep  records  and 

22  reimburse  it.   That  was  the  only  occasion  I  could  si.-e  wheire 


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recordl<eepin<j  was  done.   Tlidt  I  know  of. 

Q     This  was  a  cyclical  type  of  recordkeeping  in  order 
to  separal;e  the  politiCriL  usaye  Eroin  the  nonpolicicai  usage? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q     That  liasn't  been  cycled  through  recently? 

A     No. 

Q     Vou  are  not  aware  of  any  other  office  policies  or 
systems  in  which  tlie  employees  keep  tlieir  own  phone  lines? 

A     No,  I  am  not. 

Q     To  your  knowledge,  there  is  no  electx'onlc 
attribution  of  calls  to  a  particular  phone  other  than  for  the 
long  distance  calls  that  are  not  done  through  the  switchboat-d 
and  are  not  FTS? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q     Are  we  excluding  from  discussion  tlie  miJitary 
plione  system? 

A     Yes.   Like  I  stated  from  the  beginning,  my 
responsibility  is  on  the  administrative  side  of  the  hcjuse. 
The  military  comes  under  the  juri  .«!dicti  on  of  the  military 
office  of  the  White  (louse  Communication  Agency. 

MR.  HOLMES:   Alan,  is  this  the  system  — 

MR.  RAUL:   That's  correct.   We  had  scheduled 


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1  another  deposition  Eor  today  that,  by  agreement,  we  havo 

2  postponed  until  another  day,  where  a  representative  from  the 

3  White  House  Communications  Agency  will  provide  Cor  you  l.he 
-1  information  regarding  the  other-  switchboard,  that  is 
b  admini:i  tered  by  the  White  House  Communications  Agency  under 

6  military  jurisdiction. 

7  RY  MR.  HOLMES: 

8|  Q     you  have  no  knowledge  of  their  switching 

9  techniques? 

10  A     Their  switching  capabilities  go  through  the  same 

11  telephone  switch.   They  utilize  the  same  switch  as  cjurs  in 

12  the  central  office.   The  onjy  difference  is  they  have  their 

13  own  prefix  per  sn,  like  39S-2000  telephone  numbers. 

14  Q     That  separates  them  for  billing  purposes? 

15  A     Yes,  they  receive  their  own  bills  and  however  it 

16  is  divided  down. 

17  Q    How  are  the  two  systems  kept  separate  in  terms  of 
1(3  outgoing  calls?  , 

19  A     Basically  they  are  not.   It's  just  whatever 

20  circuit  or  trunk  is  free  at  the  time  r.hey  place  the  call  on 

21  their  utility  lines.   If  they  are  making  a  long  distance 

22  call,  for  example,  thciy  are  dialing  9,  they  will  get  one  oi: 


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the  outside  trunks  to  go  outside,  or  FTS  trunks,  it    you 
an  FTS  call. 

Q     So  for  purposes  of  outgoing  calls,  they  sort  of 
piggyback  in  the  same  sharing  arrangements  with  the  other 
agenci  es  ? 

A     Yes,  utilizes  the  same  circuitry,  whatever. 
Q     If  they  are  utilizing  the  exact  same  circuitry, 
then  the  computer  records  they  keep  of  their  outgoing  calls 
must  be  kept  of  yours  as  well?   Is  that  not  true? 

MR.  RAUL:   Mr.  Holmes,  what  computer  records  Hre 
you  talking  about? 

MR.  HOLMKS :   The  VAX  system. 

MR.  RMIL:   You  raised  a  subje<;t  that  Mr.  Nagy 
didn't  testify  to,  but  drawing  upon  an  earlier  deposition 
tod.iy. 

MR.  HOLMES:   Right.  j 

i 
MR.  RAfJL:   If  I  could  just  clarify  that,  that  does  I 

not  relate  to  —  I  am  not  testifying  here  and  1  am  just        | 

trying  to  clarify  this  point.   I  believe  that  that  refer<.Mic«  j 

to  the  VAX  system  was  to  cable  traffic  and  does  not  relate  to 

phone  traffic. 

Now  I  am  not  a  technical  expert  or  even 


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1  particularly  conversant  in  this  area,  but  my  understanding  is 

2  that  cable  traffic  is  distinct  from  telephotie  traffic.   And 

3  the  cable  traffic  is  sort  of  —  is  a  different  kind  of 
electronic  communication  than  a  voice,  telephone  voice 

5  communica  tic)n . 

6  THK  WITNESS:   We  are  talking  about  data  traffic, 

7  computer  data-type  traffic? 

fl  MR.  HAUL:   The  point  that  Mr.  Holmes  is  raising 

9  i:(3ncerns  information  that  whether  you  call  it  eledironic 

10  traffic,  I  call  it  cable  traffic,  it  relates  to  cables, 

11  telexes. 

12  THE  WITNESS:   That's  an  entirely  different 
l.l  circuitry  that  handles  that. 

11  BY  MR.  HOLMES: 

IS  Q     I  wonder  if  you  could  explain,  first  of  all,  the 

J  6  parameters  of  exactly  what  kind  of  service,    it.    is.   You  are 

17   .  talking  only  about  oral  communications  over  voice 

10  communication  lines? 

19  A     Oral,  voice  communications,  yes. 

20  Q     So  for  your  purposes,  you  have  nothing  to  do  even 

21  with  a  computer  use  of  a  modem  ovor  the  telephone  lines  with 

22  the  telephone 


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1  A     No,  I  lion '  t .   The  only  Lhinij  I  ge.t    involved  in  is 

2  getting  that  ordered  vip  for  the  agency  to  request  it  and  so 

3  on . 

4  Q     How  is  that  bilJed,  not  tyirough  you? 

5  A     No,  it's  billed  through  the  agency  directly. 

6  Q     So  they  woiiJd  have  to  have  a  specific  least;  line 

7  f(3f  their  computer  modem  traffic? 

8  A     Yes. 

9  Q     They  would  pay  for  that  originally? 

10  A     Yes.   It  would  appear  on  your  telephone  bill 

11  monthly  that  they  get. 

12  Q     How  many  modems  are  there  on  the  syutem? 
13|  A     I  have  no  idea. 

11  Q     The  only  way  we  could  find  th.it  out  would  be  to 

15  look  at  one  of  your  monthly  master  bills  and  checlf  out  the 

Irt  rental  tor  locjse  lines? 

17  A     Fven  in  that  case  you  probably  wouldn't  be  able  to 

18  get  the  information,  because  all  it  says  is  for  .sefvice.   It 

19  doesn't  break  it  down  basically  on  your  modems  or  whati-vf;r. 

20  Q     Where  w<5uld  that  information  be  available? 

21  A     Through,  probably,  on  for  our  side,  administrative 

22  side,  would  be  our  automated  systems  <iivisic5n. 


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1  Q     AutomAted  sysf.ems  division  ol;  what.? 

2  A    Of  the  Office  of  Administration. 

3  Q    Who  is  that? 

4  A  Mr .    Jules    DviPeza. 

5  Q  Jules    DtiPeza? 

6  A  Yes. 

7  Q     Could  you  spell  it,  please? 

8  MR.  INTRATFW:   Capital  D-u-capi taJ  P-e-z-a,  first 

9  name  Jules . 

10  BY  MR.  HOLMES: 

11  Q    So  there  is  no  computer  m<jdem  use  of  the  lines 

12  that  you  control? 

13  A     That's  correct. 

1-1  Q     Could  you  explain  thp  difference  between  the  vaicc; 

ISi  traffic  in  its  electronic  c:ommun  ica  tion  with  cable  and  telox 

16  traffic. 

17  A     I  will  try  to  put  it  down  in  simplest  terms,  1  tkc; 
10  you  say. 

19  Q    Yes.   I  would  appreciate  it.   If  you  can  make  me 

20  understand  this,  then  you  are  d(3ing  a  good  job. 

21  A     Tf  I  can  understand  it  myself.   Probably  the  best 

22  way  to  define  it,  for  your  cablin<;  and  your  special  service. 


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1  like  Cor  data  and  secure  voice  and  so  on,  is  a  reCinerl 

2  circuit  that  --  that  is  engineered  for  that  purpose  of 

J  passing  that  type  o£  tratfic,  cabling,  secured  volco  and 

4  data. 

b  your  voice  circuitry  is  just  your  everyday 

6  common-type  voice  telephone  line.   So  there  is  an  engineering 

7  process  that  is  utilized  in  the  special  circuitry,  as  we 

fl  say.   11;  hau  to  be  eiigineered  by  the  telephone  cijinpany  Eor 

9  the  spe:cif  ications ,  whatever  it  is  going  ro  be  iitiJi;icd  for, 

10  basically. 

11  -Q  These  all  pass  through  the  same  S5  trunks  that  you 

12  have  talkr!<i  about? 

13  A     Yes.   They  cciuJd,  or  Lhey  could  have  a  direct 

14  capability.   What  t  mean,  if  you  had  a  special  cii'caic  from 

15  here  to  the  Department  oC  Ddfense,  they  could  run  a  circuit 

16  in  f.oL-    that  capability,  yes. 

17  Q     That  would  be  a  Jease  line? 

18  A    Yes. 

19  Q     And  it  would  be  specifically  engineered  to  go 

20  trom  -- 

21  A     From  point  A  to  point  H,  right. 

22  Q     T  a 


ssume  that  such  lease  lines  do  exist  for  st>cuc< 


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1  communica tions  between  the  White  House  and  various  of  the 

2  agencies? 

3  A     That's  correct. 

4  Q     So,  for  example,  CIA,  Department  of  Defense,  that 

5  kind  of  thing? 

6  A     Yes. 

7  Q     Are  those  circuits  susceptible  of  any  additional 

8  recordkeeping  than  the  regular  voice  circuits  that  you  have 

9  aJ  ready  de-scribed? 

10  MR.  HAUL:   Mr.  Holmes,  when  you  say  ".susceptible 

11  of,"  would  you  clear  that  up. 

12  BY  MR.  HOLMES: 

I 

13  Q     ^^e  they  capable,  firjt.   Then  we  will  get  into 

l-l  whether  or  not  you  exercised  that  option.   Let  me  ask  you 

15  this,  do  they  go  tlirough  tlie  same  switi:h? 

16  A     Yes. 

17  .  Q     So  they  go  through  your  new  DMS-100? 

18  A     Yes. 

19  Q     Does  that  mean  that  sirice  you  haven't  exerci.'ied 

20  the  option  of  having  the  call  origination  rocor<ikeeping 

21  capabilities  on  the  voice  lines,  that  you  likewise  do  not 

22  exercise  the  option  to  have  it  ou    any  of  the;ie  others? 


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A     That: 'is  correct. 

Q     So  there  are  no  records  of  any  of  these  other 
kinds  ot:  services  on  a  use-by-use  basis  either? 

A     That's  correct. 

Q     That  includes  cable? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Secure  voice? 

A     Now,  Lhis  is  to  my  best  recoJJ  ec  t  ion ,  because-, 
again,  the  majority  of  these  circuits  in  that  catei;oty  cuniii 
under  the  control  of  the  White  House  communication  base, 
secure  voice,  for  example,  a  lot  of  your  cablLn<j, 
telecommunications  center,  al]  of  that,  that  is  all  under  the 
White  Hciuse  C(3ramunicat  ion  . 

MR.  RAUL:   Under  the;  DMS-100  switch  under  the  Old 
Executive  Ol'fice  rtuildinrj.   How  much  oC  it  is  under  your 
jurisdiction?   What  component  of  the  data  t^lat  is  trATi.sferrcnl 
through  that  switch?  Xs    it  just  voice  on  l:he  Whitii  House 
.swi  tchboard? 

THE  WITNESS:   f es . 

MR.  SAUL:   Non-secure  voice? 

THE  WITNESS:   Non-secure. 


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1  .     BY  MR.  HOLMES: 

2  Q     All  right.   And  all  the  rest  of  the  WHCA  trafCic? 
^  A     Yea,  your  specialised  circuits  or  whatever. 

4  Q     WouJd  that  include  any  data  transmission  over 

5  plione  lines? 

6  A     There  ats    some  data  transmission  over  phone  lines, 

7  where  il:  you  have  an  office  that  has  a  Wang,  for  example, 

8  where  they  could  just  use  the  telephone  by  setting  it  in  the 

9  cradle  and  transmitting,  tliere  are  some  oi'ficea  within  i.he 

- 

10  complex  that  do  tiave  that  capability. 

11  ^     Q     Is  that  perceived  differently  for  CS.P  purposes. 

12  than  use  of  that  same  ] ine  for  a  voice  conversation? 

1.3  A     No,  not  that  I    know  of,  because  they  are  uciiizing 

i 

H  the  voice  Jine  for  that. 

15  Q.     Al.l  you  are  going  to  get  on  the  bill  ir  a  bill  for 

16  a  phone  call  that  originated  from  such-and-such  a  phone  on 

17  such-and-such  a  date  and  time  to  such-and-such  a  phonc!  and 
Ifl  looks  like  any  other  telephone  conversation? 

19  A     That's  correct. 

20  Q     even  though  what  actually  was  transpiring  <5n  that 

21  line  is  the  transmission  of  computer  data? 

22  A     That's  right. 


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Q    Would  tlLit  also  be  true  ot    other  specialized 
decryption-typf!  transmission  services  like  the  KL-'13  device? 

\  Ayaiii,  that's  in  the  White  House  communici  t  ion^- ,  1 

have  no  knowledge  of  that. 

Q    Okay. 

A     When  we  talk  secure,  secured  communications,  that 
is  not  mine  at  all. 

Q     Any  form  of  secured  communication  device  that 
exists  in  the  If)  acres  is  something  you  are  not  prepared  ti5 
talk  about? 

A     Yes,  sir,  that's  correct. 

Q     You  don't  know  about  it? 

A     I  have  an  idea  how  it  worka,  but  T  don't  know  Lhf-? 
whole  —  be  an  expert  on  it  to  talk  ab<jut  it. 

Q     All  right.   Are  you  aware  of  any  written  ) ogc  of 
phone  calls  of  any  kind  that  are  kept  in  the  Wliite  House 
compound? 

A     Yes,  I  am. 

Q     In  addition  to  the  ones  we  have;  talked  about,  kc:pi 
by  the  main  switchboard. 

A     That's  right. 

Q     Are  there  any  othors? 


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1  ^     Yes. 

2  Q    What  are  those? 

3  ^  There  is  a  presidential  call  lo«j. 

4  Q    Who  keeps  it? 

5  A     All  presidential  calls,  incoming  and  outgoing,  are 

6  processed  through  the  White  House  switchboard. 

7  Q     To  the  main  switchboard? 

8  A     To  the  main  switchboard. 

9  U     Designated  operator  or  any  operator? 
10  A    Yes,  there  is  an  operator. 

H  Q     A  designated  operator  just  for  this  purpose? 

12  A    One  on  each  shift,  yes,  there  is. 

13  Q    Go  ahead. 

14  A     The  log,  as  s  t.i  pvilated,  is  for  ingoing  and 

15  outgoing  calls  to  the  president.   The  operator  th.it  h. indies 

16  thein,  receives  them,  logs  it  on  a  log,  presidential  call  log, 

17  •  then,  of  course,  processes  the  call.   Then  at  thw  end  uf  e.ich 
Ifl  day,  2 4 -hour  period  -- 

19  Q    Does  the  log  include  the  beginning  and  end  of  the 

20  call? 

21  A     It  has  the  time  the  call  came  in  and  th«  time  it 
22 


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1  .Q     How  was  she  aware  of  l-he  disconnection? 

2  A     It's  a  manual  switch  where  she  puts  up  a  set  of 

3  cords  and  a  light  comns  on,  basically,  g«nerally  wh«n  r-.hi; 

4  ca.l]  is  finished.   She  just  puJ.ls  the  c:ord.«!  out. 

5  Q     This  is  sort  of  like  the  old  days  with  tlie  worn^n 

6  with  the  headphone? 

7  A     That's  correct.   That's  basicalJy  what  it  is, 

8  basically.   A  switchboard. 

91  Q     So  whenever  the  light  goes  out  over  the  slot  that 

10  she  haa  working,  slie  ju.sl:  pulls  the  cord  out  when  t.lie  call  is 

11  done? 

12  A     That's  correct. 

13  Q     It's  not  something  that  -- 
H  A     It's  not  electronically. 

15  Q    —  likely  to  be  ina<lvftr  ten  t .   She  is  either 

16  plugged  in  or  not  pulled  in? 

17  A     That's  correct. 

IB  Q    What  happens  to  the  logs? 

19  A     At  the  end  oL  the  day,  24-hour  period,  the  logs 

20  are  typed  up,  and  a  copy  is  put  in  a  sealed  envelope  and 

21  handed  over  to  the  personal  secretary  to  the  president.   The 

22  logs  are  for  archive  purposes.   Then  our  responsibility  ends. 


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1  our  working  copy  is  destroyed. 

2  Q    The  actual  original  moment  of  transaction  record 

3  is  destroyed? 

-1  A     Yes,  is  handwritten  by  the  operator.   That  is 

5  destroyed.   The  typewritten  one  is  official. 

6  Q    Who  types  it  up? 

7  A    The  midnight  shift  operator. 

8  Q     Who  is  that? 

9  A     Well,  we  have  three  different  peopli-i  on  the 

10  midnight  shift.   It  could  either  be  one  of  the  three 

11  telephone  operators. 

12  0     How  do  t^ley  type  it? 

13  A     On  a  —  I  think  i  t '  :j  an  IHM  Selectric  typewriter. 

14  Q     It's  not  a  word  processor? 

15  A    No,  it's  not  a  word  processor. 

16  MR.  RAUL:   Do  you  save  tfie  ribbons  on  the 

17  Selectric  typewriter? 

Ifl  THE  WITNESS:   Do  we  save  them?   They  are  thrown 

19  after  they  run  out,  put  in  the  burn  bag  or  h.aknn  off. 

20  MR.  HOLMES:   Thanks,  AJan,  that  was  my  next 

21  question. 

22  THE  WITNESS:   They  are  destroyed  once  it's  u;;c'cl 


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MR.  RAUL:   It's  a  team  effort. 

HY  MR.  HOLMES: 

There  is  only  one  copy  crertted? 

Yes. 

There  is  no  additional  backup  copy  or  anythincj? 

No,  just  the  working  copy  l:hat  i.he  operator  fill; 


out . 


Q     Are  they  destroyed  at  the  sntne  time  the  typed  copy 
is  created? 

A     They  are  maintained  in  a  cabinet  for  the  end  o.f 
t".he  month,  in  cise  there  are  some  questions  on  it,  any 
qutislionii  ahciut  number,  so  on,  might  call  from  the  archives. 

Q     What  does  the  personal  secretary  oi.    i.he  president: 
do  witli  L^leir  typed  version? 

A     I  gue.ss  it  goes  to  the  archives.   I  h.ive  tu5  idea 
what  she  does  with  it. 

Q     Since  you  don't,  in  your  normal  course  of 
business,  preserve  any  of  those  records,  you  wouldn't  have 
responded'  to  any  kind  of  re<iuests  for  those  records  in  i.he 
last  year  and  a  half,  say? 

A     There  have  been  re<2uests  for  pres  iiien  t  Lai  call 


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1.  logs,  I  .im  trying  to  think,  recently.   Was  the  Challenger 

2  within  the  last  year? 

3  Q     yes,  a  little  over  a  year  ago. 
1  A     Yes.   I  think  a  general  memo  came-  down  from 

5  Capitol  Hill  requesting  records  ofi  any  calls  l.hat  we  had. 

6  Tfiat  was  beyond  the  time  period  we  had  the  logs  anyhow. 

7  Q     So  yc3u  had  tcj  respond  as  you  have  just  responded 

a  to  me,  and  that  is  if  they  want  those  records,  they  will  have 

9  to  approach  I. lie  presidential  secretary  in  the  archives? 

10  A     Yes,  b.isically  I  responded  I  don't  have  the 

11  records.   T  think  it  went  out  as  .i  general-type  thing  t"rom 
^?  the  White  House,  big  document.   t  had  input  into  it. 

13  MR.  HOT.MKS :   Ml  right.   Otf  the  record. 

1  il  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

15  RY  MR.  HOLMES: 

16  Q     Mr.  Nagy,  T  would  like  to  talk  about  Ccill:: 

17  completed  within  the  system  from  one  phone  within  tlie  systein 
IB  to  another  phone  within  the  system.   Do  those  also  travel 

19  through  the  switch? 

20  A     Yes. 

21  Q     And  doing  so,  did  they  create  any  record  ot  their 

22  having  been  tl> rough  the  circuit? 


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I  A     No. 

">  Q     So  there  is  no  billing  effect  whatsoever  to  thrtt 

3  tielephone    call? 

''  ^           No,    it's    dJ  J    internal,    four    dicjit    dial,    whalevex, 

5  just    dial    the    numb«r. 

6  Q     VoT    maintenance  purposes,  are  thftre  any  elc-ctronic 

7  memories  of  what  phono  <:alis  ar<;  beimj  made? 
H  ■       A     No. 

9  Q     How  do  you  know  that?   How  do  you  know  there  it:  no 

10  such  record? 

11  A.    WeJ  ]  ,  basically  because  of  what  we  are  utilii:inq, 

12  I  don't  see  h(5w  they  could  have  the  i:apability  on  it.   You 
1.1  would  have  to  approach  a  piece  of  equipment  we  are  taJkinci 
111  about  to  have  detaileil  call  recording  or  to  be  able  i.o  r.tjlL 
J5  how  calls  we  generate  are  going  to. 

16  The  phone  on  the  desk  there,  there  is  th(i  old  whai. 

17  .  they  caJi  A-1  keysets.   T  think  what  you  are  trying  to  say, 

18  you  have  a  lot  of:  your  new  electriDnic  telephone  sets  that  are 

19  out  on  the  market  that  have  capabilities  of  Jast  number 

20  dialed,  recording,  so  on.   We  dcjn't  have  that.   For  security 

21  purposes,  they  are  not  within  the  compound.   Secret  Service, 

22  again,  evaluates  all  the  equipmM^^Lha  t  we  have  in  here,  and 


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1  there  are  certain  specifications  that  then  you  would  havo  to 

2  meet;  those  phones  have  been  in  operation,  again,  beCore  T 

3  was  here,  probably  a  good  20  years  easily,  25  ye.irs. 

4  Q     So  you  are  saying  that  this  A-l  set  ht-re  in  this 

5  ofitice  is  the  prototype  of  all  the  other  ones  in  the 

6  compound? 

7  A     Yes . 

8  Q     There  are  no  other  vendors,  then,  other  than  ATS.T. 

9  and  no  more  modern  phone  systems  in  use? 

10  A     ATST  does  have  a  telephone  system,  it's  called  the 

11  Merlin,  I  believe,  M-e-r-l-i-n.   Again,  l.he  White  House 

12  Communications  Agency  utilizes  these  telephone  sets.   It's 
131  mostly  in  a  trip  environment,  where  its  easy  ai-.d  compact  to 

I'll  take  out  on  a  trip  when  the  president  travels,  Ihe  staff 

1 

l^  travels.   There  are  some  in  usage  by  l:he  Whii.e  House 

16  1  Communications  Agency,  and  their  area  of  responsibility.  I 

17  believe  they  provide  service  too. 

18  There  are  a  few  others  that  were  put  --  they  are  a 

19  lot  easier  to  install,  faster  io    install.  Tower  Commission, 

20  for  one,  we  had  one  put  in  for  them  and  a  few  othci  places 

21  that  they  needed  it  immediately. 

22  Basically,  a  good  90  percent  of  your  telephone 


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1  system  here  wif.hin  the  White  House  ia  ri<jht  there. 

2  Q     The  phone  ccimmunicati  ons  used  when  the  president 

3  travels,  I  assume  that's  all  within  the  WHC^  ambit? 

4  A     Yes,  that  is  their  primary  resporini  bi  J  i  ti  es  . 

b  Q     Are  there  phone  pagers  in  use  within  thu  compound? 

6  h  There  are  page  boys,  like  I  have  one  he;rc,  yes,  by 

7  the  White  House  Communications  Agency  issues  it.   It's 

8  basically  on  a  tone-type  arrangement,  where  you  have  a 

9  three-digit  dial  that  they  program  into  their  pager  per  se 

10  and  it  sc;nds  out  a  beeping  tone,  and  that  indivjdvial  knows  to 

11  call  to  the  White  House  Communications  number  and  £ind  out  ir 

12  it  was  paged  or  whatever. 

13  Q     Thu  ccjmputer  that  switches  those  over  is  also  a 
11  White  House  Communications  Age;ncy? 

15  A     White  House  Communications  Agency.   I  thvnk  it's  a 

16  Motorola,  I  believe  it's  provided  by  Motorola,  that's  who  the  , 

17  pagers  are  from. 

18  Q     The  maker  of  the  pager  is  Motorola  and  the  maker 

19  of  the  switch  is  Motorola,  but  the  operation  of  the  t^quipmcnt 

20  is  done  here  on  the  compound? 

21  A     Yes. 

22  Q     Are  there  any  digital  pagers  on  the  compound? 


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4  2 

1  -\  Not  that  I  know  oL'.   Again,  WHCA  would  have  l-.o 

2  answer  that;  if  they  have  sorae  new  updated  equipment,  T  am 

3  not  aware  oC  it. 
1  MR.  RAUL:   Let  the  record  show  that  Mr.  Natjy 

5  showed  Mr.  Holmea  the  page  boy  that  he  had  in  his  own  pockot, 

6  for  the  benefit  of  those  reading  the  record,  who  wonder  what 

7  wtj  ate  talking  about. 

8i  HY  MR.  HOLMKS: 

9]  Q  The   one   yoii    showed    is    not   a   digit')!    pager; 

10  correct? 

11  A     No. 

12  Q     It  doesn't  r«ad  out,  it  simply  gives  you  a  toncO 

13  A     It  gives  ycju  a  tone  and  you  would  call  into  the 

M  number,  the  WHCA  switchboard  number  to  find  out  who  is  paging 

15  y(5u. 

16  Q    They  would  tell  yovi  which  person  had  paged? 

17  A    Correct. 

Ifl  Q  In  order  to  do  that,  they  would  reference  the 

19  record.s  they  had  there? 

20  A     Yes,  they  would  have  to  have  records  of  who  is 

21  calling. 

22  Q     Hut  to  your  knowledge,  other  than  perhaps  WHCA, 


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there  are  no  digital  pagers? 

A     Some  of  the  telephone  company  people  on  the 
premises  have  their  own  witliin  the  system,  AT&T  and  Cf,e .       If. 
we  are  talking  about  staff  people,  not  that  I  know,  unless 
they  went  out  and  purchased  their  own  aomewhere. 

Q     If  they  purchase  their  own,  you  do  know  that  they 
diiln't  do  it  with  your  budget,  though;  right? 

A    That  is  correct,  that  is  corrtict.  if.    they 
purchased  their  own,  it  wouldn't  be  tod  through  our  tc;lephoii« 
switch,  jt  would  be  a  commercial  number  on  it  like  dny 
other. 

Q     Right.   So  i  (:  they  are  carrying  1  he-m  around,  :t's 
becausH  they  bought  theii-  own,  they  are  paying  their  own 
monthly  fees  and  they  are  using  it  for  whatever  business;  they 
have? 

Ttiat's  correct. 

Have  you  ever  seen  anybody  with  them? 

Other  than  the  telephone  people  that  I  deal  with. 


no. 


Q    Mr.  Nagy,  on  looking  for  records,  whether 
electronic  or  physical,  that  would  reflect  telephone  use. 
either  from  a  particular  or  from  particular  individuals  or 


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1  £rom  or  Cor  particular  stations  within  the  White  House 

2  compound,  I  want  to  ask  you  an  open-ended  question,  whether 

3  you  can  tell  me  whether  any  such  record  exists  anywhere, 

4  whether  physical  or  electronic. 

5  MR.  RAUL:   White  House  statt  or  executive 

6  president  of  the  White  House  staff? 

7  BY  MR.  HOr.MES: 

8  Q     Any  person,  group  or  agency  within  the  compound 

9  that  you  are  aware  of. 

10  A     Again,  I  am  not  aware  of  any,  other  than  the  ones 

11  that  T  have  mentioned. 

12  MR.  RA(1L:   Does  your  question  exclude  members  oT 
lil  the  First  Family  that  tl-\e  residents  —  are  there  any  record;; 
1  "1  for  any  members  of  the  First  Family?   I  don't  think  it's 

15  necessary  to  go  into  detail  if  there  are  such  rec:ords.   Hut 

16  if  you  can  teJ 1  Mr.  Holmes. 

17  THE  WITNEHS:   There  is  a  record  for  a  member  of 

18  the  First  Family.   Again,  this  is  an  operational  record. 

19  Secretarial  service,  when  they  are  going  through  the 

20  switchboard,  rely  on  the  secretarial  service. 

21  MR.  RAUL:   Off  the  record. 

22  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 


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1  MR.  RAOL:   We  ju3t  had  a  discussion  ol!C  t.h«  reconi 

2  regarding  certain  telephone  operations  provided  as  a  courtesy  • 

I 

3  Cor  members  of  the  First  Family.   Just  leave  it  it  that.  I 

4  BY  MR.  HOLMKS:  ' 

5  Q     Very  well.   Accepting  the  special  records  kept  Cor  . 

6  the  presidential  calls  and  for  the  First  Family  calls,  are  j 
7|  there  any  other  records  that  fit  the  description  that  I  asked  ] 
ol  yc3u  a  moment  ago?  ' 
9  A     No. 

10  Q    That  includes  whether  they  are  electronic  or 

IL  physical,  whether  they  are  kept  here  on  the  premises  cjr 

121  elsewhere?                                                    | 

i  ; 

1  il  A     Yes.                                               ; 

I4'l  MR.  HOLMFS:   I  don't  have  any  more  questions.       ^ 

15  MR.  TGTT :   No,  thank  you,  I  am  s.i  tis  C  ind. 

i 

If)  MR.  HAI.L:   I  do  not. 

17  MR.  RAtJI,:   Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  H(3lmes. 

18  MR.  INTRATFIR:   Off  the  record  Cor  a  minute. 

19  (Oiscussicjn  otf  the  record.) 

20  MR.  RAUL:   We  would  like  to  thank  the  Senate  and 

21  House  Select  Committees  for  this  <3pport\ini  ty  to  provide 

?.2  information  Cor  their  investigations,  and  formally  request  at 

rIIrs.  Inc. 


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46 


l-.his  i;ime  an  tjppo  rtun  i  ty  t-.o  review  Llie  transcript  oC 
Mr.  Nagy '  s  deposition  and  to  retain  a  copy  of  that 
deposition.   There  are  also  certain  areaa  Uiat  we  have 
discussed  with  Mr.  Holmes  that  have  been  testified  to  that  wtr 
will  review  during  the  course  ot  our  c:on.s  ideratii^n  o  t  tho 
transcript . 

(Whereupon,  at  1:20  p.m.,  the  deposition  was 
<:f)nc  luded  .  ) 


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CERTIPICAJg.  qa^BO'K^^  fttCt<['^  t'^REPORTER  47 


I,  WENDY  S.  COX ,   the  Officer  before  whom 

the  foregoing-  deposition  was  taken,  do  hereby  certify 
that  the  witness  whose  testimony  appears  in  the 
foregoing  deposition  was  duly  sworn  by  me;  that 
the  testimony  of  said  witness  was  taken  in  shorthand 
and  thereafter  reduced  to  typewriting  by  me  or  under 
my  direction;  that  said  deposition  is  a  true  record 
of  the  testimony  given  by  said  witness;  that  I  am 
neither  counsel  for,  related  to,  nor  employed  by 
any  of  the  parties  to  the  action  in  which  this 
deposition  was  taken;  and,  further,  that  I  am  not 
a  relative  or  employee  of  any  attorney  or  counsel 
emp loved  by  the  parties  hereto,  nor  financially 
or  otherwise  interested  in  the  outcome  of  this  action. 


Notary  Pub Ixf  in  and  for  the 
District  of  Columbia 


My  Commission  Expires    NOVEMBER  14,  1987 


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218 


C^CIAL  TRANSCRIPT 
PROCEEDINGS  BEFORE 


nNITED  STATES  OF  AMERICA 
CONGRESS  0?  THE  UKITBD  STATES 


ta  tha  Matter  of:  > 

) 
TESTIMONT  BEFORE  THE  SENATE  > 
SELECT  COMMITTEE  OR  SECRET  '  ) 
MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO  IRAK  AHO  ) 
TH£  NICARAGDAN  OPPOSITIOK        ) 


OEPOSITIOH  0?  SfilRLET  A»  NAPIEB. 


Vcsli^ascoit,  Jy,    C. 
April  10,  1987 


ALOe^SOM  F€PCf(ilNG 

'202)  628-9300 

20    F   STUEET,    N.W. 


cnpv  MA     ^         m s2 COPIES 


219 


UNITED  STATES  OF  AMERICA 
COhCRESS  OF  THE  UNITED  STATES 


1 

2 

3 

4 

--------  --------J 

'   In  th«  Natter  oft  t 

TESTinONY  BEFORE  THE  SENATE      ( 

SELECT  CONNITTEE  ON  SECRET       I 

NILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO  IRAN  AND  t 

THE  NICARA6UAN  OPPOSITION        t 


Washington*  O.C* 
Friaay*  April  I0«  1987 
The  Oaposltion  of  SHIRLEY  A.  NAPIER  was 
convanad  at  lt45  p.a.«  In  Room  220«  Hart  Senate  Office 
Buildingt  Washington*  D.C«*  the  witness  being  first  duly 
SMorn  by  JANE  u.  BEACH*  a  Notary  Public  in  and  for  the 
District  of  Coluabla*  and  the  proceedings  being  taken 
down  by  Stenoaash  by  Jane  W.  Beach  and  transcribed  under 
her  direction* 


AlOatSON  REPORTING  COMPANY.  INC 
M  f  ST.,  N.W.,  WASHINGTON,  B.C.  20001     (202)  62S-9300 


220 


^    APPEARANCESt 

2  HARK  A.  BELNICK*  Esquir* 

3  CAMERON  H.  HOLMES*  Esquire 

*  VICTORIA  F.  NEURSE*  Esquire 
^  United  States  Senate 

*  Select  Coaaittee  on  Secret  military 

'  Assistance  to  Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan 

'  Opposition 

^  Hashknfltont  O.C* 
10 

1^  KEM  H.  BALLEN*  Esquire 

''2  U.S.  House  of  Representatives 

^3  Washington*  O.C. 

14 

^5  6ERAR0  F.  TREANCRt  JR.*  Esquire 

^*  Venable*  Baetjer  and  Honard 

^7  Suite  900 

IB  2000  Corporate  Ridge 

19  ncLean*  Virginia  22102 

20  17031  74S-3500 

21  On  behalf  of  the  witness 
22 


ALDERSON  REPORTING  COMPANY.  INC. 
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221 


1 

£JI.ll.I.E.li.: 

2 

QtBflaliiflo.fiii 

£xaiii 

3 

SHIRLEY    A.    NAPIER 

4 

By   Mr. 

Balnlck 

5 

e 

Exuiaus 

7 

tlailiS£.fltAfl2iliflO 

£aas 

8 

Extiifiil.llA« 

9 

1 

17 

10 

2 

17 

11 

3 

29 

12 

* 

33 

13 

9 

48 

14 

6 

92 

IS 

7 

118 

16 

8 

119 

17 

18 

19 

ao 

21 

22 

ALDBISOH  REPORTING  COMPANY.  INC 
20  f  ST.,  N.W.,  WASHINGTON.  D.C  20001     (202)  62t-9300 


222 


^  HR.  BELNICKt   6ood  afternoon. 


Whereupon* 
*  SHIRLEY  A.  NAPIER* 

^   called  as  a  ttltncss  herein  by  counsel  for  the  Co«alttee* 
^   Mas  aKaained  and  testified  as  folloMSt 
^  EXAMINATION 

BY  HR.  BELNICKi 
Q    Ms*  Napier*  by  Mhoa  are  you  eaployed? 
A    Stanford  Technology  Trading  Croup 
International. 

Q     Soaetiaes  kno«n  as  STTGI7 
A    Right. 

Q     For  hOM  long  have  you  been  eaployed  by  that 
coapany 1 

A    Three  and  a  half  years. 

Q    You  were  hired  roughly  In  Noveaber  1983? 

A     Correct. 

19  Q    Nho  bired  you  for  that? 

20  A    Mr.  Secord. 

21  Q     Is  that  Richard  Secord? 

22  A  Yei. 


ALOERSON  REPORTING  COMPANY,  INC 
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223 


Q     Mould  you  trace  your  •■ployaent  at  STTGI  sinct 
2   your  hiring  In  1S83? 
3 


(HItntst  sworn.) 
BY  MR.  BELNICKt.  (RosuMing) 
Q    Mould  you  traco  your  •■ployaont  history  at 
Stanford  since  Octobar  *83? 

A     I  startad  in  Novaabar  '83.   I  Morkad  full-tlaa 
until  March  of  *e9«  at  Mhlch  tiae  I  want  to  part-tlae 
and  Ment  to  school*   Nay  of  *8S  through  tha  alddle  of 
Saptaabar  *89*  I  did  not  Mork  at  all  for  Stanford 
Technology • 

In  tha  alddle  of  Sapteaber  of  *85«  I  started 
part-tlae  and  continued  part— tiae  through  March  of  *86. 
April  of  *86  through  the  present*  I*ve  been  working  full 
tiae. 

Q    What  ware  your  Job  responsibilities  between 
*83  and  your  return  to  full  tiae  work  In  April  of  '86? 

A     I  started  out  as  a  secretary*   Me  were  setting 
up  tha  office*  so  I  set  up  the  flies*  did  soae  typing* 
answered  the  phones* 
21  When  I  returned  in  March  of  *86  full  tiae*  I 

^   was  hired  as  a  staff  assistant.   I  did  accounts  payable* 


ALOOISON  REPORTIM  COMPANY.  INC 
10  r  ST.,  N.W.,  WASHINGTON.  O.C  lOOOJ     (202)  62(-9]00 


224 


I  did  SON*  tra«*llng  with  tlr*  Secord*  I  ran  trrands*  I 
arranged  for  visas* 

Q    Arc  those  tha  general  areas? 

A     Ysst  general. 

Q    NoM*  you  say  you've  run  errands  for  Hr*  Secord 
since  Aprl  I  of  l<i86? 

A    Yes. 

°       0    Did  any  of  those  involve  visits  to  the  Old 
9 


Executive  Office  Building  In  Hashlngtont  D.C.7 
A     Yes. 

NR.  TREANORt   Excuse  ae.   Before  mo  go  any 
further*  I  wonder  If  this  aight  be  an  appropriate  time 
to  put  on  the  record  the  status  of  these  witnesses  with 
^*      regard  to  the  vote  by  your  Coaaittee  to  grant  them 
^^   laaunlty.   I  want  to  aaice  sure  that  the  record  Is  clear 

^^   before  we  get  knto  the  substantive  detail  of  their 
17 


test iaony. 

HR.  BELNICKt   The  Senate  Coaalttee  voted  at 
Its  business  aeetlng  on  April  2*  1S87*  to  coapei 
testiaony  fro*  both  of  these  witnesses*  Hs.  Napier  and 
Hs.  Corbin*  and  in  connection  therewith  to  apply  to  the 


^   court  for  use  iaaunity. 


AlOERSON  REPORTING  COMPANY.  INC. 
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225 


Th«  application  Mat  filed  and  notlct  was  given 
to  tha  Attorney  General  and  to  the  Independent  counsel* 
I  believe*  on  April  3.   He  have  received  word  fro*  the 
Attorney  General  that  the  Attorney  General  mIII  not  ask 
for  the  additional  20  days.   He  have  reason  to  believe 
that  the  Independent  counsel  mMI  do  llkeitlse*  and  It  Is 
Senate  counsel's  intent  to  go  forward  then  with  the 
foraal  application  to  the  court  this  coaing  Monday* 
April  13th. 

Now*  I  understand  also*  Gerry*  that  there  Is 
an  laaunity  order  covering  both  of  these  witnesses  fro* 
Judge  Robinson. 

HR.  IREANORt   Me  were  served  with  orders 
covaring  both  Hs.  Mapier  and  Ms.  Corbin  on  April  the 
1st.   Those  orders  were  executed*  I  think*  on  March  the 
31st  by  Chief  Judge  Robinson  of  the  U.S.  District  Court 
In  Washington. 

I  Mouio  siapiy  lIKe  to  put  on  the  record*  In 
addition  to  that  fact*  ay  understanding  that*  although 
the  foraal  orders  sought  pursuant  to  the  vote  of  your 
Coaaittee  have  not  been  issued*  that  the  Intent  of  the 
^   Coaalttee  Is  to  extend  to  these  discussions  and  to  these 


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depositions    today   tho    sa*«   blanlttt    lanunlty    that   wiil    be 
'       foraaily    In    place    froa    your   Coaaittee    In   another    four   or 


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f  iwe  days. 

MR.  BELNICKt   Absolutely. 
BY  NR.  BELNICKt   (Resuaing) 
Q    Ms.  Napiert  I  had  aslted  you  before  mo  had  that 
discussion  Mftether  you  had  run  errands  for  Hr*  Secord  to 


'   the  Old  Executive  Office  Building  In  Washington*  O.C.t 

and  I  believe  you  ansuered  yes.   Aa  I  correctt 
10 


A    Yes. 

Q    Uould  you  describe  those  errands! 

A     At  tiaes  I  Mould  tatte  envelopes  down  there.   I 
have  tahcn  the  encoding  aaohlnes«  broken  aachlnes*  down 
there  and  received  a  new  one  to  take  its  place.   And  at 
one  tiae  I  took  aoney  down  thcret  and  I  took  a  Bible 
dOMn  there. 

0    The  "there"  you've  been  referring  to  Is  the 
Old  Executive  Office  Building? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Old  you  see  anybody  in  the  Old  Executive 
Cffice  Building  on  those  occasionsT 


^       A    Whenever  I  took  soaething  down  there*  I  gave 


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It  to  FaMH  Hall. 

0     And  Mho  did  you  undarstand  Fawn  hall  to  be? 

A     Sacratary  to  Ollla  North. 

Q    Whan  did  you  aalta  thasa  trrands*  during  what 


yaar? 

A     *86. 


Q    Could  you  dascrlba  for  us  tha  occasion  in  1986 
Mhan  you  dellvarad  aonay  to  the  Old  Executive  Office 
Bui Iding? 

A     Bob  Button  was  trying  to  get  in  touch  with 
Bill  Cooper*  who  was  coaing  to  O.C.*  and  he  wanted  hi* 
to  stop  In  NIaai  and  pick  up  docuaants  or  papers*  and  he 
could  not  get  a  hold  of  Bill  Cooper.   And  fir.  Secord  was 
out  of  tOMn  and  I  didn't  have  auch  to  do*  so  I 
volunteered  to  go  down  and  pick  up  the  papers. 

Bob  said  ha  Mould  have  to  aake  a  phone  call. 
Ha  aada  his  phone  call*  caae  back*  said  It  was  okay  for 
■a  to  pick  It  up*  to  aake  ay  reservations*  and  that  he 
was  going  to  aake  another  phone  call. 
^  Hall*  I  aada  ay  reservations  and  he  caae  back* 

^      and  at  that  tiaa  ha  told  aa  that  I  would  be  picking  up 
^   S16»000  in  cash  froa  a  aan  who  worked  for  Southern  Air 


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Transport* 
2       Q     Al  I  right. 

^       A    And  Mh«n  I  picked  It  up  to  bring  It  back  to 
*   O.C.  and  to  take  It  to  Colonel  North  at  the  Old 
'   Executive  Office  Building. 

Q     Before  we  go  any  further*  Mho  was  Bob  Outton? 
^       A    Bob  Outton*  his  title  Is  staff  director  with 
^   Stanford  Technology  Trading  Croup  International. 
Q     So  he  Morked  In  the  saae  group  as  yout 
«       A    Yes. 
^^       Q    Mho  Is  Bill  Coopert 

^^       A    Bill  Cooper  is  a  pilot  that  Mas  down  in 
^^   Central  Aaerlca. 

Q    Do  yau  know  by  Mhoa  he  Mas  eaployedt 
A     I  doa*t  knoM  Mho  the  eaployer  Mas. 
^*       0    Did  nr.  Outton  tell  you  the  naae  of  the  aan 
^^   fro*  Southern  Air  Transport  that  you  Mere  to  see  in 
^B   southern  Florida! 

^^       A    He  did*  and  I  can't  reaeaber  the  aan's  naae. 
^   All  I  reaeaber  is  I  can  describe  hia*  and  he  said  he  Mas 
^^   the  controller  for  Southern  Air. 
^       Q    Oo  yau  recall  his  naae  being  Bill  Langdon? 


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A  Not  kt  Mas  not  Bill  Langdon.   H«  satd  I  alght 
■••t  Bill  Lansdont  but  that  anothar  gantlaaan  would  neat 

■a  and  It  Mould  not  ba  Bill. 

Q  Old  you  fly  to  Hlaai? 

A  Yes«  I  did. 

0  Oo  yau  recall  Mhan  this  Mas? 

A  It  Mas  August  26th. 

"        Q  19867 
9 


A     1986. 

Q    Tall  us  Mhat  happened  Mhan  you  went  to  NIaalt 
A     I  Bat  the  aan  at  the  gate  that  we  had  arranged 
and  he  had  on  an  SAT  ID  badge*  fit  the  description*  and 
he  recognized  ae  by  Mhat  I  mas  Moarlng.   Ue  Ment  to  a 
lounge.   He  ga«e  ae  a  Federal  Express  overnight 
envelope*  like  ar  8-1/2  by  11  size.   And  he  opened  It 
up*  shOMOd  ae  the  aoney. 

I  did  not  count  the  aoney  In  the  lounge 
because  It  Mas  croMded.   He  Ment  to  the  lounge.   I  Mcnt 
to  the  ladies  roca  and  counted  the  aoney*  and  there  was 

20  S16,000. 

21  Q     In  Mhat  denoalnatlon  bills? 

22  A     It  Mas  all  tMonties  and  under. 


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^  0  Uhat  did  you  do  after  you  counted  th«  aonoy? 
^  A  I  boarded  the  plane  back  to  O.C.*  to  Dulles. 
^       Q    Once  you  arrived  at  Dulles? 

*  A     I  left  ay  oar  there*   I  got  In  ay  car  and  went 

^  dOMn  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building.   I  tient  Into 

a 

the  17th  Street  entrance.   There  Mas  a  phone  theret  a 
house  phone.   1  called  Faun's  extension  and  told  her  I 

^   Mas  downstairs  Mith  a  package  that  I  thought  01  lie  Mas 

9 


Malting  for. 

Q    What  happened  then? 

A     I  Malt  a  foM  alnutes  and  she  caae  doMn  and 
took  the  Boney. 

0    Old  she  say  anything  to  you?   I*a  talking 
about  FsMn  Hall.   Old  she  say  anything  to  you  Mhen  she 
caae  dOMn? 


A    He  exchanged  a  few  Mords  and  she  said 


16 

^^  soaething.   It  Mas  either  "Old  you  go  to  diaal  and  get 

^^  this?"  or  "Old  you  go  dOMO  there  today?"   1  don't 

^®  reaeabcr  exactly  Mhat  It  Mas*  but  that  Mas  the  extent  of 

^  our  conversation. 

21       Q    What  did  you  do  then? 

^       A     I  Mont  to  ay  hoae*  bcoause  It  Mas  late  In  the 


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afternoon. 

0     Olo  you  report  to  Mr.  Dutton  that  evoning? 

A     No.   I  think  I  talked  to  hia  the  next  day.   I 
think  he  aight  have  called  the  office  and  asked  ae  about 
It*  and  I  told  h  la  I  hafl  delivered  It.   And  he  said 
"Thank  you  for  going  down  there." 

Q     Aside  froa  Mr.  Outton  and  the  people  who  ara 
In  this  rooa  today*  have  you  told  anyone  before  about 
this  delivery  of  aoney  to  Fawn  Hall  at  the  Executive 
Office  Bulldins  for  Ollle  North? 

A     I  told  By  husband  once  the  Independent  counsel 
had  ta  Iked  to  ae  . 

Q    Did  yoti  ever/talk  to  Hr.  Secord  about  It? 


A  Oh*  yes*  I  did  tell  Hr.  Secord  about  It. 

Q  When  Mas  that? 

1*        A  It  Mas  after  he  returned*  a  few  days  after  I 

^^   went  detin  there. 

''^       Q  What  did  you  say  to  hiat 

19       A  I  asked  hia  If  he  knoM  I  had  gone  down*  and 
^   yes*  he  Mas  aMare  that  I  had  gone  dOMn.   And  I  Just  told 

^''   hIa  about  Mhat  I  had  done. 


^        Q     Old  you  tell  hIa  you  had  picked  up  cash  and 


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d*llv*red  kt  to  Fawn  Hall  for  Colonel  North? 
A     Y«<. 

Q    Mhat  did  he  sayl 

A    He  Mas  concerned  I  had  gotten  Involved  in  It. 

Q    Oo  you  recall  what  he  said*  what  he  said  along 
those  I inesT 

A     I  thInK  he  was  a  little  upset  that  I  had  been 
ashed  to  do  It.   But  I  really  wasn*t  asKed.   I  had 
volunteeredt  not  knowing  what  I  was  going  to  do. 

He  was  a  little  upset  that  Bob  had  allowed  ae 
to  do  It  and  was  concerned  that  I  had  been  Involved  In 
It.   That  was  the  only  thing  he  expressed  to  ae. 

Q    Old  he  tell  you  what  the  cash  was  for*  Mr. 
Secord? 

A 

Q 


No*  he  did  not. 

Old  Mr.  Outton  tell  you  what  the  cash  was 


for? 


A  No*  he  did  not. 

Q  Has  anyone  to  this  day  told  you  what  the  cash 

was  for  that  you  were  asked  to  and  did  deliver  to  Fawn 
hall? 

A  No. 


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Q     Do  you  hav*  any  understanding  of  what  It  was 
for? 

A    No*  I  00  not. 

0     Did  you  ever  discuss  this  cash  dellvtry  with 
Mr.  Hakia? 

A    Not  I  don't  bclieva  I  did. 

Q    Ail  right.   Nowt  aslda  froa  tha  pcopla  Ma*va 
■antlonad  —  your  husband*  laMyer*  and  tha  others  In 
this  rooa  —  hava  you  discussad  this  cash  dallvcry  with 
anyone  else? 

A     No. 

MR.  IREANORt   Other  than  the  Independent 
counse I  3 


15 


BY  MR.  BELNICKt   (Resuaing) 
Q     Including  the  Independent  counsel. 
A     No. 

Q    Nok*  there  were  other  occasions  In  1986  when 
you  aade  deliveries  or  picked  things  up  at  the  Old 
Executive  Office  Building*  correct? 
A    Correct. 

^  Q  Mas  there  ever  any  other  occasion  when  to  your 

^   knowledge  you  delivered  aoney  to  that  building? 


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A  Mo. 

Q  Mas  there  ever  any  occasion  Mhen  to  your 

knoMlooge  you  picked  up  aoneyf  including  cheeks* 

travelers  checks*  or  cash*  fro*  Fawn  Hall  at  that 


"   bulldlnfi? 

6 


A     No. 

^       Q    Was  there  any  other  occasion  apart  froa  the 
^   occasion  you*v«  Just  described  In  August  1986  Mhen  you 


9 

worked  for  the  United  States  governaent? 


delivered  what  ycu  knew  to  be  aoney  to  anybody  Mho 
10 


"        A    No. 
12 


Q    Let  se  shOM  you  soae  travel  records  that  you 
brought  Mith  you  today  and  ask  you  If  they  pertain  to 
the  trip  you  have  Just  described.   Let  ae  shOM  you  tMo 
docuaentst   August  29  —  these  are  the  saae.   Let's  go 
off  the  record  a  second. 

lOlscusslon  off  the  record. I 

HR.  BELNICKt   Back  on  the  record. 


16 


ns.  Napier*  let  ae  hand  you  the  docuaent  we've 


19 

^   noM  aarked  as  Napier  Exhibit  1.   Can  you  describe  what 

21   that  Isl 

22 


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(Th«  docuaant  reftrrad  to 
Mas  aarkcd  Napl«r  Oaposltlon 
Exhibit  No.  1  for 
Idant  If Icatlon. ) 
A     This  Is  a  copy  of  tha  Itlnarary  for  tha  flight 
dOMh  to  niaal  on  Hay  26th  of  1986. 
0    And  Naplar  Exhibit  2] 

(The  docuaant  rafarrad  to 
Mas  aarkad  Naplar  Daposltlon 
Exhibit  No.  2  for 
Idantif Icatlon.) 
A     This  Is  a  copy  of  the  itinerary  for  tha  return 
trip*  froa  Nla«l  to  Washington  on  August  26tht  1986. 

0     You  produced  both  of  these  docuaents  here  this 
Born  Ingt 

A     Right*  yes. 

Q  I  Manttd  to  ask  you*  referring  again  to  the 
SAT  representative  whoa  you  aet*  do  you  knoM  Mhat  his 
naae  Mas7 

^  A  I  did  knoM  his  naae.  I  had  It  Mritten  doMn  on 
^^  one  of  ay  pads  that  I  don't  have  any  aore.  I  don*t  know 
^   whether  I  Mould  recognize  his  naae  If  I  saw  a  list  of 


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^   SAT  caployacs  or  not* 

^       Q     Hod  yo(t  soon  Ma  boforo  that  occasion? 

^       A    No. 

Q    Havo  you  ovor  soon  hi*  againt 

A     No. 

Q    Rr .  81  II  Coopor  — 

MR.  BALLENS   Doos  tho  naao  Robort  Mason  coao 
^   to  alno? 

*  THE  UITNESSt   Robort  Hasont   No. 

BY  MR.  BELNICKt   CRosuaIng) 
Q    Had  you  any  dealings  mIUi  Bill  Coopor  boforo 
August  5t  19863 

A    No*  1  nowor  saw  tho  aan.   I  think  I've 
answorod  tho  phono  whon  ho*s  called  once  or  twleo* 
Q    Havo  you  ovor  soon  hIaT 
A    No. 

Q    Oo  you  knoM  Mhat  his  business  Mas  with  your 
coapany? 

A    No*  other  than  I  know  ho  Mas  a  pilot  working 
in  Central  Aaorlca. 

Q    Hhoro  In  Central  Aaorlca*  did  you  knoM? 


^       A    El  Salvador*  Nicaragua. 


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1 

Q 

2 

A 

3 

0 

4 

A 

S 

0 

6 

Mh«r«    1 

7 

A 

8 

Q 

9 

A 

10 

that  M< 

It 

0 

12 

A 

13 

Q 

14 

A 

IS 

Q 

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that? 

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A 

18 

Q 

19 

A 

20 

Q 

21 

A 

22 

Q 

Mhtn  h*  calledt  to  Mho*  did  h«  ask  to  spaakT 

Bob  Outton.    * 

!•■  sorry? 

To  Bob  Outton. 

HoM  die  you  knoM  Mr.  Cooper  nai  a  pilot  and 
Mhara  ht  was  werklngT   Old  Hr.  Outton  tall  you  that? 

Yis*  he  did. 

Is  that  all  you  knoM  about  Bill  Coopar? 

Qthar  than  the  plana  crash.  Ha  nas  tha  ona 
that  was  killed  in  the  plane  crash  down  there. 

Oo  you  recall  when  that  Mas? 

It  Mas  October  or  Noveaber. 

Old  nr.  Hasenfus  ever  call  the  office? 

He  has  called  one  tiae. 

And  Mhen  in  relation  to  October  1S86  Mas 

He  has  called  Mithin  the  past  aonth. 

Ulthfn  the  past  aonth? 

Yes. 

With  MhOB  did  he  ask  to  speak? 

Bob  Outton. 

Mr.  Outton  is  still  coalng  to  Mork  at  STTCIt 


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A  Yes. 

Q  And  so  Is  Mr.  Sccord? 

A  Yes. 

0  And  th«y*v«  bt«n  ther*  together  the  last  aonth 
at  various  tiaasi 

A  Yes*  sure* 

Q  While  you  and  Ms*  Corbin  Mere  there? 

A  Yes. 

a  When  Mas  the  last  tiae  Hr.  Hakia  was  In  the 

office  to  your  knoMledge? 

A  I  think  aaybe  October*  Septeaber*  October* 

Noweaber*  around  in  that  area. 


^*       Q    Of  19861 

^*        A     1986,  yes. 
15 


Q    You're  still  eapioyed  at  STTCI? 
A    Yes. 

Q    NoM  let's  talk  about  the  other  errands  you  ran 
for  nr.  Secord  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building. 
You  said  there  Mcre  occasions  Mhen  you  delivered 
envelopes.   This  Is  the  occasions  other  than  on  August 


^^   1986  Mhen  you  delivered  the  cash. 


There  nere  other  occasions  Mhen  you  delivered 


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•nvelopest  correct? 
A     Yes. 

Q     About  how  aany  of  those  occasions  Mart  there 
during  1986? 

A    A  half  a  dozen  to  a  dozen  tiaes. 

0     Could  you  describe  the  envelopes  that  you 
del  I vcred? 

A     Host  of  the  tlae*  It  was  Just  a  letter  sized 
plain  Mhite  envelope. 

Q     Business  size? 

A    You  knoHt  like  not  the  personal  stationery 
sizet  but  the  letter  size* 

Q    Who  gave  you  the  envelopes  to  deliver? 

A     Host  of  the  tiae*  froa  Hr.  Secordv 
occasionally  froa  Bob  Outton. 

0     Hok  long  In  advance  of  the  delivery  did  either 
fir.  Dutton  or  Mr.  Secord  give  you  the  envelope? 

A     Post  of  the  tiae  It  Mas  Just  to  hand  ae  the 
envelope  and  Just  tell  ae  to  take  It  downtown. 


^        Q     kai  the  envelope  bulky? 


A     No. 


22  Q  What    did    It    feel    like    It    had    inside    of    It? 


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^       A    A  letttr«  paper* 

Q    On  each  of  those  occasions  whan  you  dallvarad 
^   such  an  envelopa*  did  you  deliver  It  to  Fawn  HallT 
*  A    Yes.   I  think  there  Mas  one  tiae  that  a  girl 

'   by  the  naae  of  Barbara  aet  ae  downstairs. 
Q    Do  you  recall  her  last  naae? 
A    NO. 

0    Have  you  aver  heard  the  naae  Barbara  Brownt 
A    No. 

Q    HoM  Mould  you  arrange  to  aeet  Fawn  Hall  or  In 
the  one  case  Barbara  Brown  or  Barbara? 

A     I  would  take  ay  car*  I  would  call  her  before  I 
leave  the  offlcet  call  her  and  say  that  I  would  be  there 
In  20  alnutes.   Soaatlaes  Hr.  Secord  would  tell  ae  to 
take  his  car*  because  he  has  a  car  phone*  and  I  would 
call  her  whan  I  got  within  f-lve  alnutes  of  the  Executive 


^^   Office  Bui  Idlns. 

''^  And  thtn*  soaetiaes  if  I  had  to  wait  I  would 

19 


call  her  froa  downstairs  and  tell  her  I  was  down  there. 

Q     And  then  Fawn  Hall  would  siaply  take  the 
enve  lope? 

A     Yes. 


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0    And  on  th«  occasion  Mhan  Barbara  took  It*  did 

^   she  give  you  anything  In  return? 

3 

A     I  think  I  aay  have  picked  up  one  of  the 

encoding  aachlaes  froa  her« 

0    ^roB  Barbara? 

A    Froa  Barbara. 

Q    And  an  tha  occasions  uhon  you  delivered  the 
Mhlte  envelopes  to  Fawn  Hallt  did  she  give  you 
anything? 

A    There  «as  not  always  an  exchange.   There  were 
tiaes  that  I  was  sent  down  there  to  pick  up  soaethlng* 
but  not  every  fclse  I  ttent  down  there  did  I  get  soaethlng 
In  return. 

Q    Soaetiaes  you  did*  soaetlaes  you  didn't? 

A    Soaetlaes  she  would  have  soaethlng  for  ae  and 
I  would  have  soaethlng  for  her. 

Q    Old  Fawn  Hall  —  on  the  occasions  when  Fawn 
Hall  gave  you  soeethlng*  was  it  always  the  saae  thing? 

A    No. 

Q    Tell  us  what  she  gave  you? 
21        A     There  were  tiaes  where  I  would  get  an  envelope 
^   that  was  —  they  used  tapes*  code  tapes  for  the  encoding 


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1 

2 
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7 
8 
9 
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12 
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IS 
16 
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20 
21 
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■achlne*  and  th«y  Mere  Just  In  a  hard  plastic  holder* 
and  I  could  tall  what  those  were  fro*  the  bulk  of  the 
package  and  the  feel  of  it* 

I  have  picked  up  Just  a  plain  envelope  before* 
and  also  an  encoding  •achlne* 

Q     Aside  froa  the  envelopes  that  you  Knew  had  the 
encoding  aaehlne  tapes*  could  you  tell  what  was  in  the 
other  envelope  or  envelopes  that  you  received  froa  Fawn 
Hall? 

A    Ho. 

Q    Has  anyone  to  this  day*  anyone*  ever  told  you 
what  was  In  any  of  the  envelopes  that  you  delivered  to 
the  Old  Executive  Cfflce  Building? 

A    No. 

Q    Has  anyone  ever  told  you  to  this  day  what  was 
In  any  of  the  envelopes  you  received  froa  the  Old 
Executive  Office  Building*  apart  froa  those  which  had 
the  encoding  tapes? 

A    No. 

Q    Have  you  ever  —  have  you  discussed  those 
deliveries  with  flH  anyone  other  than  your  lawyer*  the 
Independent  counsel*  your  husband*  the  people  here 


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today? 

A     No. 


29 


Q    Aside  froa  th«  S16*000  dollvery  Mhlch  you 
doserlbodt  Us*  Naplor*  noro  you  Involved  tn  any  other 
larga  cash  transaction  while  you*ve  been  eaployed  at 
STTCI7 

A    Yes. 

0    Old  that  occur  on  or  about  March  26tht  19867 
A    Yes. 

Q    Could  you  describe  for  us  nhat  happened  at 
that  tlae? 

A    Hr.  Hakla  was  In  the  office  and  had  ae  call 
the  bank  to  sec  If  a  wire  transfer  had  coae  Into  his 
personal  account  at  First  Aaerlcan.   And  It  had*  and  he 
gave  ae  two  checks  to  type  out.   He  asked  for  one  to  be 
Bade  out  —  both  of  thea  to  be  aade  out  to  casht  one  In 
^^   the  aaount  of  S8«000  and  one  In  the  anount  of  S7»000. 
IB  MR.  BELNICKt   Would  you  stop  for  a  aoaent 

''^   while  I  ask  the  reporter  to  aark  this  as  the  next 
^   exhibit. 

21  (The  docuaent  referred  to 

22  was  aarked  Napier  Deposition 


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12 


13 


14 


15 


16 


18 


19 


20 


26 


Exhibit  NO.  3  for 
Identification.) 
BY  MR.  BELNICKt   (RcsuBing) 
Q    Dots  that  docuBtnt  contain  photocoplas  of  th* 
tMo  chocks  to  cash  to  uhich  you  havo  Just  testlflad? 
A     Vet. 

Q    Both  datod  March  26th*  i986t 
A     Y«S. 
Q    Ono  In  tho  aaount  of  S8«000»  th«  othar  In  tha 


10 

■  ■our 

A  Yes. 


aaount    of    S7*0001 

11 


Q  Could  you  turn  to  tha  second  page  of  the 

exhibit.  Mould  you  describe  what  that  Is7 

A  It's  ay  signature  where  I  endorsed  the  checks 

so  that  I  could  cash  thee. 

0  And  did  you  produce  these  two  pages  this 


^^   Borning? 


A    Yest  I  did. 

Q    Mr.  Hakia  asked  you  on  March  26th  to  draw  up 


these  checks? 


2^       A    Right. 

^       Q    You  did*  and  then  what  happened? 


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A    He  ashed  ae  to  go  to  two  different  branches  of 
First  Aeerlcan  and  cash  thei. 

Q    That's  the  First  Aaerlcan  Bank  of  VIrglniat 

A    Correct. 

0    UMoh  branches? 

A     I  iieiit  to  the  Vienna  branch  and  Tysons 
Corner. 

Q     And  you  cashed  thc«T 

A    And  I  cashed  thea*  and  brought  the  aoney  back 
to  the  office  and  gave  it  to  hia* 

Q    Did  he  leave  the  next  dayT 

A    He  left  that  night  or  the  next  day  on  a  trip. 

0    Oo  you  knoM  whereT 

A     I  doa*t  knoM  for  sure.   I  think  It  aight  have 
been  London  or  Geneva. 

Q    All  right. 

A     It  was  an  overseas  trip. 

Q    Did  you  —  did  Nr.  Hakia  tell  you  what  he 
needed  the  cast*  for  on  that  day? 


^       A    No*  bo  did  not. 


Q    Old  you  express  any  concern  to  hia  about  this 


^   transaction? 


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A    Y«Sf  b«caus«  I  was  s«al-aMar*  of  a  law  that  if 
you  cashed  a  check  over  910*000  you  ware  supposed  to 
report  It  or  fill  out  a  fom.   And  he  said  that  that 
didn't  apply  to  this  because  each  check  Mas  not  over 
SXOtOOOt  I  had  nothing  to  Morry  about* 

Q    Has  anyone  else  in  the  office  on  the  day  that 
you  cashed  these  checks  and  brought  It  back  to  Mr* 
XaklaT 

A    Mr.  Secord  Mas  there*  Joan  Mas  there*  and  to 
the  best  of  ay  acaory  Toa  Clines  and  Rafael  Quintero 
Mere  both  In  tlie  office  that  day. 

0    Were  they  present  Mhen  you  handed  Mr*  Hakia 
the  cash  or  discussed  any  part  of  the  transaction  with 
hia? 

A    I  don't  believe  they  Mere  right  there  In  his 
office  Mhen  I  gave  the  aoney  back.   I  think  they  Mere 
soaewhere  In  the  offices. 

Q    Old  you  knoM  Mho  Toa  Clines  Mas? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Who  was  hat 

A    He's  a  friend  of  Mr.  Secord's. 

Q    Old  he  call  the  office  frequently? 


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^  A  Yes. 

2 

Q  Old   ha   COM*    In    frcqutntiyf 

'  A  tet. 

Q  Oo  you  know  what  business  he  had  with  Mr. 
'   Secord? 


6 

Mith   hi*. 


A  No«    !•«•   iievar    been    told    what    business    he    had 

7 


Q  Old  be  ever  ask  you  to  place  calls  while  he 

^   was  In  the  offleet  "he"  being  Hr.  Toa  Cllnes* 
^°       C-l-l-n-e-s? 

^^        A  Yes*  ha  has. 

12 

Q  And  where  did  he  ask  you  to  place  calls? 

A  To  Portugal. 

Q  To  where?   To  anybody  you  can  recall  In 


13 


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15 


16 


17 


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Portuga I? 


A    His  naae  Is  Jose  Carnal  I. 


Q     6-a-r  ~ 


A     J-o-s-e  C-a-r-n-e-l-r 


Q     In  what  city  in  Portugal? 


^       A    That  I  don't  know*  because  I  Just  use  a 
^   country  code.   I *■  not  even  sure  I  used  a  city  code. 
^       Q     Is  his  naae  on  your  roiodex  in  the  office? 


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Carn«ll*  I  b«li«ve  to. 
Do  you  still  have  that  rolodax? 
Yes. 

MR.  BELNICKt   I  request  that  mc  get  a  copy  of 
tha  rolodex  cards  fros  ns.  Napier* 
RR.  IREANORI   Yes. 
MR.  BELNICKt   Okay. 
BY  HR.  BELNICKt   (Resuaing) 
Did  Rr.  Cllnes  ewer  ask  you  to  call  anyone 


1 

A 

2 

Q 

3 

A 

4 

5 

tha    ro 

6 

7 

8 

9 

Q 

10 

else? 

11 

A 

12 

nould 

13 

Q 

14 

A 

15 

Q 

16 

A 

17 

Q 

18 

A 

19 

Q 

Oh*  on  occasion  he*s  been  In  the  office*  he 
nould  ask  ae  to  call  Rafael. 

Qu  lntcro7 

Quintero. 

Uhera  did  you  reach  Mr.  Quinterot 

In  Hiaal. 

Anyplace  else? 

No*  I  think  that  Mas  It. 

Did  nr.  Quintero  coae  into  the  office  froa 
^   tiaa  to  tlael 
2^       A    Yes*  he  did. 
^       Q    Hhoa  did  ha  coae  In  to  sea? 


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AH*  Mould  COB*  In  to  s««  Bob  Dutton  or  Hr. 
^   Socord. 

Do  you  knoM  what  Hr.  Qulntoro*s  business  was? 


Q 

A     No. 


Q    Oo  yau  knoM  Mhat  tho  nature  of  his  dealings 
Mere  Mith  Mr.  Secord  or  your  coapany  or  Nr.  DuttonT 

A    Not  I  has  never  told.   I  assuaed  he  had 
soaething  to  do  Mith  the  operations  In  Central  Aaerlca. 

Q    To  raturn  to  the  story  you  Mere  telling  us 
concerning  the  S19*000  transaction  on  Inarch  26tht  19e6t 
you  ■entloned  a  Mire  transfer  of  the  SlSvOOO  into  Mr. 
Hakla's  accountt  Mhlch  you  oonflraedt  correct? 

A    Yes. 

0    Oo  you  knoM  Mher*  that  Mired  aoney  caae  froa? 


^S        A     I  believe  It  caae  fro*  SMitzerland. 


31 


a     And  on  Mhat  do  you  base  that? 

A     Hell*  that's  Mhere  aost  of  our  aoney*  Mhen  Me 
got  Mire  transfers  Int  that's  Mhere  aost  of  It  caae 
froa.   And  I 'a  assuaing  that  caae  —  I  don't  have  it  to 
^   look  back  on  right  noM.  the  Mire  transfer  slip.   But  I'a 
2^   assuaing  that's  nhere  It  caae  froa. 
22       Q     Oo  you  knoM  If  that  Mire  transfer  slip  still 


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existsi 

A  I  thtnk  it  does. 

Q  Mh«r*  hould  It  be? 

A  It  would  be  in  Nr.  Hakle's  personal  records. 

Q  Where  are  they? 

A  There  are  soae  in  the  office* 

Q  At  STTCI? 

A  Yes. 

Q  Where  are  the  others? 

A  He  aay  have  It.   It  alght  have  been  soaething 

I  Bailee  to  hi*  If  he  wasn't  around  the  office*  but 

probably  It  should  bo  in  with  his  personal  stuff  there. 

Q  was  there  a  place  you  personally  aalled  things 
to  Mr.  Hak  la  at  Mhen  he  wasn't  at  the  office? 

A  Yes. 

0  Where  was  that? 

A  In  his  hoae  in  Los  Catos*  California. 

Q  Oo  you  reaeaber  the  address? 

A  I  know  i t ' s ^^^^^^^H .   I  don't  reaeaber  the 
nuaber*  but  I  knew  it'sl 

Q  All  right.   Is  it  on  your  rolodex? 

A  Yes. 


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MR.  KELNICKt   Would  you  «arK  this  next 
docu««nt  as  hap i or  4* 

(The  docuaent  referred  to 
Mas  aarked  Napier  Deposition 
Eahlbit  No.  4  for 
Identification.) 
BY  HR.  BELNICKt   (Resuaing) 
Q    Shirleyt  let  ae  hand  you  the  docuaent  that's 
noM  been  aarked  as  Napier  Exhibit  4.   Could  you  describe 
Mhat  It  Is? 

A    This  Is  uhat  I  had  written  up  about  the  two 
cash  transactions  that  I  did* 

Q     The  119*000  and  the  S16*000  transactions  that 
you  testified  about  today*  correct? 
A    Correct. 

^'       Q    About  Mhan  did  you  prepare  this  docuaent? 
A     It's  been  about  three  neeks  ago. 
0     Is  that  your  signature  at  the  bottoa? 
A    Yes*  It  Is. 

0     And  did  you  put  that  signature  on  at  ay 
request  earlier  today? 
22        A     Yes*  I  did. 


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0  And   datad    It    today? 

A  Yei*    I    did. 

Q  But  It  was  prepared  about  three  weeks  ago? 

A  Yes. 

^       Q  Qkay.   At  whose  —  was  It  at  soaeone's  request 

^   that  you  prepared  this? 

A  No.   I  did  this  to  help  ny  attorney  with  some 

o 

things  that  we  had  gone  over. 

a 

Q    Aside  fro*  your  attorney*  Independent  counsel 
^°   and  ust  have  you  showMl  this  docuaent*  Napier  Exhibit  4* 
to  anyone  else? 


«  A  NO. 

^^  Q  Have  you  over  shown  It  to  Nr.  Secord? 

1*  A  NO. 

15 


Q    Have  you  told  Mr.  Secord  that  you  were 
preparing  such  a  docuaent? 
A    No. 


0    How  about  Mr.  Hakia  or  Hr.  Outton? 


18 

19  A     NO. 

20  Q    Now  let's  talk  for  a  aoaent  about 

21  Switzerland.   Vou  said  that  aost  of  the  wire  transfers 

22  caae  fro*  Switzerland.   Oo  you  recall  the  naae  of  any 


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^   banks  or  accouats  in  SMitzarland  froa  which  tha  Mira 
^   transfars  orlgtnatad? 
'       A    CSF. 

a    CSFt  t  Ika  "Frank"* 

A     Ya*. 

Q    Any  al sat 

A     I  think  Ma  had  soaa  froa  Cradit  Suisse.   That 
Mas  It. 


'       Q    Did  you  knoM  what  CSF  Has? 

^®       A     I  assuBS  It  was  a  banking  institution 
11 


Q    Apart  froa  that*  did  you  hava  any  Inforaatlon 
about  It? 

A    No. 

Q    Old  you  knoM  If  It  had  any  ralationship  to 
your  coapany  or  Ifr.  Secord  or  Hr.  hakia? 

A    No*  othar  than  tha  aonay  Just  coaing  through 
thara. 

Q    Oo  you  rocall  hoM  auch  aonay  In  total  caaa  In 
froa  CSF  during  1966? 


^       A    Not  total  I  don*t.   I  can  raaaabar  soaa  of  tha 


Mire  transfars*  but  not  a  total  of  thea. 


^       Q    What  asounts  do  you  racall  coaing  In? 


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^        A    On*  thing  that  Mas  a  total  was  that  m«  had  a 
^   SZOOvOOG  latter  of  credit  with  CSF*  and  mo  received 
SllOtOOO  of  that  overt  I  believet  *e5  and  *a6. 

Q    And  Mhcre  was  that  deposited*  do  you  knoM? 
A     To  First  Aaerican  Bank. 
0    To  Mhose  account? 
A     The  STTCI. 
^       0    Do  you  recall  any  other  Mire  transfer  aaounts 
'   fro*  CSF? 

A    Me  received  S70»000  that  caae  through  CSF*  and 
it  Mas  referenced  "Udall*" 
0    When  Mas  that? 

A     I  believe  that  Mas  In  late  suaaer*  spring  of 
*86. 

Q    And  Mhat  did  you  do  Mith  that? 
A    Hall*  that  autoaat leal ly*  on  a  wire  transfer* 
deposits  Into  your  account* 

Q    The  saae  account  at  First? 
A    Yes. 
^       Q    Do  you  recall  any  others? 

21  A     There  Mas  one  in  the  aaount  of  58*000  and  I 

22  believe  700  dollars*  that  was  in  the  spring  or  early 


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1 

2 

3 

4 

S 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 

^2   KITCO. 

Q    Do  you  knoM  what  KITCO  Masf 

A     Th«  snly  thing  I  was  told  about  KITCO  is  that 
rapr«s«nt«d  S90*000  consulting  f««  for  *8$  and  S90«000 
consulting  f«a  for  *86. 

Q    BoyoMd  that*  you  don't  knoM  Mhat  KITCO  Is  or 
Has? 

A     No. 

Q    Any  othor  mItc  transfars  froa  CSF«  do  you 


suaaor  of  *86* 

Q    Also  M«nt  Into  tha  First  Aaarlcan  account? 

A    Yes*  ccrract. 

0    Has  thtra  a  rafaranee  on  that? 

A     I  ballavo  It  Mas  rofarenced  "AOC." 

Q    Okay. 

A     Ha  ractlvad  —  I  balleva  this  was  In  tha  fall 
of  '85*  but  possibly  tha  fall  of  '86*  !'■  not  sura*  It 
Mas  S9S*979  fro  KITCO*  K-I-T-C-Q. 

Q    Hhara  Mas  that? 

A     That  caaa  through  CSF*  and  It  Mas  rafaranced 


racallt 


^       A     I  ballc«a  Ma  recalvad  ona  froa  Laka 


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^  Resources.   I  don't  reaeaber  the  aaount  and  I *■  not 

^  absolutely  positive  It  was  fro«  Lake*  but  that's  In  ay 

^  aind  for  soae  reason. 

*  Q     Is  there  a  date  In  your  alnd  attached  to  the 

^  Lake  Resources  transfer*  approxlaately  when? 

^        A     ko. 

^        Q     What  was  ADC7 
8 

'  Corporation. 

^^       Q    Did  that  coapany  to  your  knoMledge  have  any 
11 


A     I  believe  It  stood  for  Ar-F«M  Developaent 


dealings  Mith  Sccord  or  STTCIT 
^^       A    The  only  one  I  reaeaber  talking  about  that 

^^  would  have  been  l*r.  Haklat  and  again  It  Mas  for 

^*  consulting. 

1^       Q    Apart  froa  the  one  ADC  transfer  you've 

^^  described*  do  you  recall  any  others? 
17       A     I  don't  recall  any  offhand. 

IB       Q     Okay.   Wlllard  Zucker*  do  you  know  that  naae? 
1^       A    Yes*  I  do. 
^       0    Uhe  do  you  know  hia  to  be? 
21       A     Associated  with  CSF. 
^       Q    And  how  do  you  know  that? 


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^        A     Because  I  sent  telexes  to  hi*  at  CSF*  I've 

^  placed  calls  to  hia  at  CSF  for*  I  believe*  Mr.  Hakln  to 

^  speak  to  hia. 

*  Q  Froa  Mlioa  Mere  the  telexes  that  you  sent  Mr. 
^  Zucker*  Hakia  or  Secord  or  both? 

*  A    Usually  Hr.  Hakla. 

'       Q    Do  you  recall  the  telexes  concernedt 

/\ 

*  A    Host  of  thea  Mere  In  reference  to  collecting 
^  Boneys  or  having  scaething  to  do  Mitti  aoney* 

''°       Q    Asking  Mr.  Zucker  to  collect  aoney? 

It       A    tos*   At  soa*  point  they  had  an  arrangeaent 

'^  that  CSF  Mould  collect  funds  froa  people  that  mo  Mere 

^'  doing  consulting  for*  and  they  uould  take  like  a  one 

^*  percent  coaalsslon  froa  Mhatevcr  they  collected. 

15       Q  Anything  olse  you  recall  about  those  telexes? 

«       A    Ho.   Host  of  thea*  It  uas  Just  Manting  to  fcnoM 

^^  Mhere  the  aoney  Mas  froa  —  say  like*  you  knoM*  that 

^*  $10*000  froa  Udall*  It  Mas  Just  a  follou-up  telex  to  see 

^'  Mhere  the  aoney  Mas  at  that  point*  Mhen  mo  could  expect 

20  It. 

21  Q    Old  you  knoM  If  Hr.  Udall  had  any  connection 

22  Mith  Hr.  Secord  or  your  coapany? 


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''  A  Other    than  having   stationary  printad  at   ona 

^       tla«*    that's   all. 

^       0  Who  ha<l  tha  stationary  requastad? 

*  A  It  Mas  althar  at  Mr.  Hahl**s  or  Hr.  Sacord*s 

^   raquast  that  Me  had  stationary  printad. 

'       Q  Thay  asKad  you  to  hava  stationary  printad  for 

^   Udall? 

^       A  Actual  lyt  I  ballava  they  asked  Joan  to  do  tha 

'   Udall. 

Q  The  stationery  Mas  kept  In  your  offices? 

A  Yes. 

Q  Old  you  ever  use  It? 

A  No. 

Q  Okay*   Do  you  know  the  naaa  Prince  Bandarf 

A  Yes. 

0  And  who's  he? 

'*7       A  He's  the  aabassador  of  Saudi  Arabia. 

^B       Q  And  hOM  do  you  knoM  that  naae? 

IB       A  Hr.  Secord  has  talked  about  hia  on  occasion  as 

^   being  a  personal  friend. 

2'*       Q  Old  Mr.  Seoord  ever  ask  you  to  aaka  calls  to 


^   Prince  Bandar? 


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A  I  b«lt«v«  I  plac«d  on*  call  to  th«  •■bassy« 

0  Do  y«u  recall  Mh«n  that  mm%1 

A  I  think  that  was  In  the  first  yaar  that  I 

Morkad  for  hla> 

^       Q  During  1S8  — 

*       A  Probably  *84. 

^       Q  Mas  that  tha  saaa  yaar  Mhan  you  got  Mr.  Sacord 

^   a  visa  to  Saudi  Arabia? 
0 


A    Yas. 


Q 


And  did  you  gat  Hr*  Hakia  a  visa  to  Saudi 


''^  Arabia  In  19e4«  do  you  racallt 

^2       A     1  bolicv*  I  did. 

■•^       Q    Did  Princ*  Bandar  avar  coaa  Into  your  —  has 

■"*  ha  avar  coaa  Into  your  office  that  you're  awaref 

15  A     No. 

16  Q    But  Hr.  Secord  has  been  to  the  enbassy? 

17  A     I  don*t  knoM  that  for  a  fact. 

18  Q  Okay.   Did  Nr.  Secord  ever  tell  you  that  ha 
''^  had  been  to  the  tabassy? 

20  A     I  think  the  only  thing  he's  ever  said  Is  that 

21  he  net  ulth  Bandar.   Where  they  aet  1  don't  know. 

22  Q    oo  yeu  know  If  Hr.  Secord  was  invited  to  the 


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^   ««bassy  In  ecnnactlon  with  King  Fahd*s  visit  to  the 
^   Unlt«d  States  In  lS85t 
^       A    Ysst  he  was. 

*  Q    To  a  reception? 

'       A    I  eon*t  knoM  Mhether  he  went  to  the 

^   reception,   ^e  Mcnt  to  the  dinner  at  the  J«li*  Harriott. 

'   He  Mas  invited  to  that. 

Q    You  ■entloned  before  delivering  a  Bible  to  the 
^   Old  Executive  Office  Building. 

A    Yes* 

Q    When  was  that? 

A    That  Has*  I  believe*  in  Septeaber  or  October 
of  *86. 

Q    Would  you  describe  for  us  hoM  that  happenedt 

A    nr.  Hakia  was  in  town*  and  he  and  Mr.  Secord 
had  been  out  of  the  office*  returned*  had  the  Bible. 
They  uere  trying  to  find  an  appropriate  inscription  for 
^^   the  Bible*  and  then  he  asked  ae  to  deliver  it  to  the  Old 
^9   Executive  Office  Building*  to  give  It  to  Fawn. 

20  Q    To  Fawn  Mall? 

21  A    Yes. 

22  Q    Old  Nr.  HakIa  ask  you  If  you  knew  a  suitable 


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Inscr Ipt Ion? 


2  A  Y«st    h«   did. 

^       0    Mhat  did  you  t«ll  his? 

*  A     I  told  hia  no*  I  didn't. 


S 


Q    Old  he  tall  you  tho  purposo*  what  tha  BIbIa 


Max  going  to  be  used  fort  Mho  It  Mas  going  to  be  given 

'  to? 

^       A    That  It  Mas  going  to  Iranian  friends. 

'       Q    Okay.   And  Mhat  did  you  do  Mith  It? 
'*"       A     I  put  the  Bible  In  a  broMn  envelope  and  sealed 

^^  it  up*  Mrite  FaMn's  naae  on  the  front*  and  "NSC*"  took 

^^  It  dOMn  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building*  and  Ment 

^3  in  and  left  It  In  tha  sail  rooa.   And  then  I  called  FaMn 

^*  and  told  her  that  It  uas  doun  there. 
15       Q    And  did  you  Malt  for  her  to  pick  it  up? 
1*       A    Mo. 

17       Q    NoM*  have  you  described  for  us  now  all  the 

^^  occasions  when  you  either  delivered  or  picked  up 

^^  soaething  at  tHe  Old  Executive  Office  Building? 

20  A    Yes. 

21  0    Did  you  ever  deliver  anything  to  FaMn  Hall 

22  anyMhera  other  than  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building? 


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A     No. 

Q    Evtr  racciv*  anything  froa  Fawn  Hall  or  froa 
^   Barbara  anyMhare  othor  than  at  the  Old  Exacutlva  Office 
*      Bulldingi 


A     No. 


*       Q    Hon  about  deliveries  to  Barbara  other  than  at 
^   the  Old  Executive  Office  Buildingi   Any? 


^       A    No. 

9 


Q    Oo  you  know  the  naae  Olastead? 
A    Yes. 


Q    Who  It  he? 


^^       A    He*s  —  he  caae  to  our  office  a  fet*  tiaest  and 

^^  one  of  the  trips  I  aade  Mith  Hr.  Secord  to  Hlaalt  nr. 

^*  Olastead  was  present  at  the  aeeting.   I'a  not  sure  Mhat 

^^  his  function  Is  or  Mhat  coapany. 

^*  He  had  Lake  Resources  stationery  eade  upt  I 

''^  believe  in  Hay  of  *86.   And  I  went  to  pick  that  up*  and 

''^  he  Mas  Malting  at  the  office  for  that  stationary*  and  he 

^'  took  five  or  six  sheets. 

20  Q    uhst*s  his  first  naae? 

21  A    Bob  or  Bill.   I  don't  knoM  Mhloh  Is  correct* 

22  or  even  if  one  is  correct. 


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^  Q  Could  you  doscribo  hia  physically? 

^  A  He's  tall«  thin.   He  wore  glasses  that  were 

3  tinted. 

*  Q  Color    of   hit   hair? 

'  A  Kind    of   a    sandy   brown.      He   had   a   Moustache. 

'  That's    about    it. 

^  Q  Hok   old   Mas    he? 

■  A  Fort»-l$h. 

*  0  Hhan's    tho    last    tlaa   you    saii   hlaf 

^0  A  I    think    the    last   tlao    I    saw   Mm    was    tihen    he 

^^  Mas   Malting    for    that   stationery. 

''^  Q  Mhleh    Has? 

^3  A  Back    In   Hay   of    '86. 

14  Q  Qo    yeu   know   whether    he    had    sight    In    only   one 


15 


eye? 


16  A  1  was  told  that  he  did  not  have  sight  In  one 

17  .,e. 

18  Q  oo  you  know  whether  he  had  a  glass  eye? 

19  A  I  was  rever  told  that.   I  was  Just  told  he  was 
^  b  I  Ind  In  one  eye. 

21  Q  Mho  told  you  that? 

22  A  I  believe  It  was  Bob  Outton. 


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^  Q  Hoh  aany  tiacs  was  Mr*  Olastaad  In  your 

^  offices? 

^  A  I  only  raaaabar  saaing  hi*  thara  tuo  tiaas. 

^  0  And  who  did  he  aeet  with  on  those  occasions? 

^  A  I  ballava  It  Mas  Hr.  Sacord. 

'  Q  On  both  occasions? 

'  A  Yes. 

^  Q  And  Mas  It  on  tha  second  occasion  tthen  ha  took 

tha  stationery  fro*  you? 

^°  A  Yas*  I  ballava  It  Mas. 

^^  Q  Do  yau  know  what  his  business  Mas? 

^^  A  No*  I  eon't. 

^^  Q  And  againt  he  Mas  In  Mlaai  on  one  of  the  trips 

^*  that  you  pade  Mith  Hr.  Secord? 


^S       A     In  April  of  '86. 

^'       Q    Do  you  knoM  his  addresst  Mr.  Olastead? 

17 


A    No.   Ha  told  ae  once.   I  took  hia  to  the 
airport.   He  said  he  lived  in  Maryland. 

Q    Anything  aora  specific  than  that? 

A     Soaepiace  that  it  rounded  ilka  it  Mas  a  May 

froa  the  city«  because  they  said  soaething  about  the 


^   lots  Mere  fairly  big  and  he  had  a  garden*  and  talked 


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^  about  cither  had  a  dog  or  nould  I  Ik*  to  gat  a  dog*  but 

^  he  travels  a  loti  you  knoM. 

3       Q    He'd  like  to  get  rid  of  a  dog7 

*  A    That  «as  about  It.   I  think  Bob  Outton  said 
^  that  he  Mas  an  ea-Rarlne. 

*  Q    Old  tie  or  fir.  Outton  tell  you  whether  Mr* 

^  OlBStead  had  served  with  Colonel  North  In  the  allltary? 

*  A    Not  that  Mas  never  aentloned. 

'       Q     You  took  Hr.  Olastead  to  the  airport.  Do  you 

^^  knoM  Mhere  he  was  goingt 
1^         A     No. 
12       Q    010  you  ever  place  calls  to  hia*  telephone 


call  St 

A     No< 


19  Q  la  he  on  your  rolodex? 

IS  A  I  don't  believe  he  Is. 

17  Q  You  said  that  one  of  the  things  you  have  done 

18  on  your  Job  Is  to  travel  -Ith  Hr.  Secord,  correct? 

19  A  Correct. 

20  0  Have  you  also  aade  up  a  list  of  the  trips  -Ith 

21  Hr.  Secord  or  or  his  behalf  that  you  recall? 

22  A  Yes. 


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^  HR.  BELNICKt   Would  you  aark  this  as  the  next 

^   Exhibit*  Napier  5. 

^  (The  doouatnt  referred  to 

*  Mas  aarked  Napier  Deposition 
'  Exhibit  No.  9  for 

*  Identification.) 
'             BY  HR.  BELNICKt   (Resualng) 

^       a    Shirley*  shoMing  you  this  docuaent  now  that's 
^   been  aarked  as  Napier  Exhibit  S«  did  you  prepare  this 
docuaent? 

A    Yes*  I  did. 

Q     Is  It  a  reconstruction  of  the  trips  you  recall 
Baking  as  an  STT6I  eaployeet 
A     Yes. 

0    And  ycu  signed  it  at  ay  request  and  put  the 
^^   date  on  It  earlier  today) 
Yes*  I  did. 

Mhen  did  you  prepare  Napier  Exhibit  57 
About  three  neeks  ago. 

At  the  saae  tiae  you  prepared  Exhibit  47 
Yes. 
far   the  saae  purpose? 


17 

A 

18 

Q 

19 

A 

20 

Q 

21 

A 

22 

Q 

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^  A     Yet. 

^  0     If  H«  could  Just  go  through  th«  trips*  th* 

^  first  one  you  ha«e  listed  on  Napier  Exhibit  5  Is  owor 

*  March  lath  to  16th*  1986*  and  would  you  doscrlbo  that 
'  trlpl 

*  A     I  accoapanlod  Mr*  Socord  to  London  to  attond  a 
^  aaatlng  Mith  Mr.  Khalld  Rashood. 

*  Q    And  Mho  Is  Mr.  Khalld  Rashoed? 

'  A    H«*s  a  Saudi  Arabian  buslnossaan. 

^^  Q    Had  you  saan  his  baforoT 

11  A    No*  that  Mas  tha  first  tiae  I  had  aet  hia. 

12  Q    Old  he  ever  call  tha  office? 

13  A    Yes. 

1<  Q    Freqaently? 

1S  A    Mot  real  frequently*  no. 

1«  Q    When  he  called*  he  askad  to  speak  to  Mr. 

1^  Secord  on  those  occasions? 

18  A    Yes. 

19  Q    010  you  place  calls  to  hla  for  Mr.  Secord? 

20  A    Yes. 

21  Q  uoultf    you   go   back    to    the   aeeting    then    In 

22  London  and   contlnuat 


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11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 


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'        A    We  got  there*  X  believe  on  Thursday.   He  had  a 

^  aeetlng  with  hia  on  Thursday  afternoon  that  I  did  not 

^  attend*   Me  aet  tilth  h  la  later  In  the  evening.   I  was  to 

*  go  along  and  te  take  notes  and  to  hopefully  draM  a  draft 

^  or  Mrlte  up  a  draft  of  an  agreeaent  that  Mr.  Secord 

'  Manted  Mith  l>r»  Ratheed. 

Q    And  Mhat  happened? 
'       A     hell*  they  never  caae  to  any  f Ira  agreeaent  on 

®  writing  this  agreeaent.   It  Mas  Ilka  a  consultancy 
10 


agreeaent. 

Q    Oo  you  recall  any  aore  specifies  about  the 
agreeaent? 

A     It  Mas  soaething  to  the  effect  that*  If  you 
wanted  to  do  baslness  in  Saudi  Arabia  governaent 
contracts*  t^at  you  needed  a  Saudi  eitizan  that  had  a 
degree  In  whatever  field  you  Mere  trying  te  get  into* 
Hhether  it  was  electronics*  aerospace. 

Khalld  Rasheed  has  a  degree  in  aerospace 
engineering*  and  so  the  plan  was  that  he  would  know 
what's  trying  to  coae  into  the  country  and  we  could  have 
a  consultancy  grcup  that  could  supply  -~>  If  they  wanted 


^   to  build  airplanes*  we  could  have  engineers  who  could 


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^  t«ll  the*  hoM  aany  airplanes  and  how  to  bulle  thea. 

2  Q  Hr.  Sacord  and  Hr.  Rasheed  aat  togathar 

^  privately  during  the  London  trip? 

*  A  Yes*  thay  did. 

'  0  Old  you  attend  those  aeetings? 

*  A  No*  I  eld  not. 

'  0  Did  nr.  Sacord  tell  you  Mhat  was  discussed  at 

^  those  Bcetingat 

^  A  No*  lie  did  not. 

^  Q  Old  anyone  else  tell  you7 

11  A  No*  they  did  not. 

12  0  Old  Br.  Secord  aeet  -Ith  anyone  else  during 
^^  this  March  *e6  London  trlp> 

14  ^  tes*  he  aet  privately  with  David  halker. 

15  Q  Old  you  knoM  who  David  Walker  was? 

1«  A  No. 

17  Q  oo  you  knoM  who  he  Is  now? 

18  A  I  have  seen  hia  and  he  has  been  to  our 

19  office. 

20  Q  Sine*    the  London   tripf 

21  A  tes. 

22  Q  Mho  do  you  understand  hla  to  bet 


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^        A    Hr.  Stcord  had  told  a*  that  he  was  the  English 
^   version  of  Ilk*  our  Delta  Force*  the  SASI  a  retired  SAS 
^   officer. 

*  0    Old  Nr.  Secord  ewer  tell  you  what  business  he 
^   had  Mith  Oavid  Malkerf 

•  A    No. 

0    Anyone  else  tell  you  thatt 
"       A    Mo. 

^  Q  Hon  aany  tiaes  has  he  been  to  STTGI? 
^^  A  I  believe  he's  been  there  two  tIaes. 
^^  Q  Since  nareh  19867 

A    tes. 

0  What's    the   next  occasion    that   you    recall 

Bailing   a   trip   tor   Hr.   Secordt 

A  I    itent    to  niaai    Mith   Mr.   Secord    In   April    of 

•86. 

0  That's    the   second    trip    listed   on    Exhibit    57 

^B  A  The   29th   and    aoth. 

IB  0  What   Mas    that   trip   all    about7 

^  A  Me   act   Mith   a   representative   of    the    Jaaaican 

governaent    concerning    radio   equipaent    that    they   wanted 


22 


to  buy.  Hr.  Olastead  Mas  theret  Hr.  Secordt  ayselft  and 


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''  this  Man  fro*  th«  Jaaalcan  gowerna«nt.   Hr.  Sacord*  I 

^  asked  hia  If  ha  «anted  a*  to  take  notes  ano  he  said*  no* 

^  Just  listen  carefully*  then  Mrlte  It  up  after  I  left  the 

*  aeeting. 

^  He  also  said  at  soae  point  two  gentleaen  fro* 

'  Motorola  Mould  be  Joining  the  aeeting.   So  I  was  there 

^  about  20  or  29  ainutes  before  the  tMO  aen  froa  Motorola 

'  caae.   And  nhen  they  caae  In*  Mr.  Secord  asked  ae  to 

^  return  to  hashington. 

10  Q    And  you  flea  back7 

11  A    Yet. 

12  Q    Qid  you  Mrlte  up  the  aeeting  as  you  recalled 

1^  it  on  the  planat 

14  A    Yast  I  did. 

15  Q    Typed  It  up  ahen  you  got  to  the  office? 

1*       A    Yei. 

17       Q    ci«a  It  to  Mr.  Secord  ahen  he  returned? 

«       A    Yea. 

19  Q    Have  you  ever  seen  It  since  then? 

20  A    No. 

21  0    Do  yau  know  ahere  that  wrlteup  is  noa? 

22  A  No. 


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^        Q    All  right.   Do  you  know  If  Nr.  Olastoad  was  an 

^  attorney? 

^       A    No*  1  (>on*t. 

*  Q  Th«  next  trip  you  hava  listed  on  Exhibit  5  was 

^  August  26th«  1986*  trip  when  you  went  to  NIaal  and 

®  picked  up  the  S16»C00  In  cash? 

^       A    Correct. 

^       Q    Mas  anybody  with  you  on  that  trip? 

"       A    Mo. 
10 


11 


12 


0    The  llnal  trip  Is  Septeaber  23  to  26th»  1986* 
6ene«ay  correct? 

A    Correct. 


^3       Q     Mould  you  describe  that? 

^^       A    Mr.  Socord  Mas  already  there. 

?^       Q     In  Geneva? 

^*       A     In  Ceneva. 

^'  And  be  called.   One  of  the  purposes  of  the 

^^  trip  Mas  to  aeet  Mith  Khalid  Rasheed  again.   They  Mere 

^^  going  to  Italy  tc  aeet  Mith  another  coapany*  Brinaddl* 

^  Mhlch  aanufactures  trash  Incinerators. 

21  Hr.  Rasheed  had  introduced  Nr.  Secord  to  the 

^  Brinaddl  faally.   He  Here  trying  to  get  an  agreenent  to 


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^   bacoa*  the  U.S.  rtp  for  these  treih  Incinerators.   So 

Hr.  Secord  had  asked  ae  —  he  forgot  to  take  the 
^   stationery  for  the  proposal  and  the  STTCI  brochures*  af 
*      he  asked  ae  to  bring  those  to  hla. 

Q    He  asked  you  to  coae  to  Ceneva  Just  to  bring 
brcchurest 

A     Yes. 

Q    Old  he  ask  you  to  bring  anything  elset 


'       A    No«  he  didn't. 

^^       Q    Statlerery? 

It 


A    Just  the  stationery  and  brochures. 

Q    And  you  delivered  it  to  hIaT 

A    Yes*  I  did. 

Q    Any  other  business  take  place  there? 

A    No.   By  the  tiae  I  got  there*  Khalid  Rasheed 
ad  called  Ma  and  cancelled  the  trip.   He  was  having 
^^   oral  surgery.   And  Hr.  Secord  left  the  next  day. 

Q    How  asny  tiaes  have  you  aet  Oliver  North? 

A     On  three  occasions. 

Q     Would  you  describe  the  first  of  those? 

A     The  first  tIae  Mas  a  Saturday  In  Scpteaber  of 
^   *86t  around  the  aiddle  of  the  aonth*  and  there  was  a 


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^       ■••ting    at    STTCI's    offlcs. 

^  Q  M*r*    you   askod    ip^elflcally    to   coa^    In   on 

^      Saturday   to   holp   with   that  ■••ting? 

*  A    Yait  I  Has* 

'       0    Who  Mas  at  th«  ■••tlngt 

*  A    Olll*  Mortht  Hr.  Sccordt  Mr.  Hakla*  Saa 
^   Q*Nalil»  thr«^  Iranians*  and  that  Mas  It. 

*  Q    Had  you  sa«n  Hr.  O'Neill  b«for«7 
'       A    Y«s*  I  had. 

Q    HOM  aany  tlaas  had  h^  b«^n  to  your  offico? 
A     I  think  h«  had  only  b««n  th«r«  on*  tiao 
before*  aaybt  Iho  tla«s. 

Q    Had  ha  calUd  in? 
^*  A     If  ha  old*  I  did  not  ansMor  the  calls. 

^S       0    Had  you  placed  calls  to  Saa  O'Nolil  for  Hr. 
S^cord  or  Mr.  Makla? 
A    No. 

Q    Do  y«u  knoM  for  Mhoa  ha  Morkodt 
A     No. 

Q    Old  b«  at  any  point  carry  a  buslnass  card 
saying  that  ha  worked  for  Stanford  Tachnologyt 

A    H*  had*  at  hr.  Hakla's  request*  business  cards 


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It 


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13 


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■ade  up  for  hi*  for  Stanford  Tochnology. 


0    Uhtn  Mas  thati 


A  I    ballew*   that   Mas    in   early    tuaaar   of    *86. 

^                  Q  Could    you   daserlba    Mhat  Mr.   O'Naill    lookod 
'       lllia? 

A  Ha   Mas    tallf    fairly    large    fraaedt   probably    90 

to   55*  Mora    slassas*      I   btlicva   he   had   a   aoustache* 
greying    hair. 

a 

Q  Do  you  knoM  if  that  Mas  his  real  naaet  Saa 
10 


Q'Neillf  or  Mhather  It  Mas  a  pseudonya  or  codenaael 


not< 


A     I  don't  knoM  Mhether  It  Mas  his  real  naae  or 


0    There  Mere  three  Iranians  there? 


A     Yes. 

^'       Q    Old  anyone  tell  you  their  naaes? 

^*  A    One's  naae  Mas  Chang  Izt  C-h-a-n-g  1-2.   I 

^^  don't  knoM  if  that  Mas  his  first  or  last  naae. 

^^  MR.  klHANt   Or  real  naae. 

19  THE  UITNESSt   There  Mas  another  gentleaan 

^  there*  Mhose  naae  Mas  Hr.  Oarvlsht  and  the  third 

^  gentleaan  I  Mas  not  Introduced  to. 

22  BY  HR.  BELNlCKt   (Resuaing) 


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^       Q    M«r«  the  thra*  Iranians  — •  hoM  old  would  you 


2 


say? 


A    Tha  tMO*  Chang  Iz  and  Hr.  Oarvlsh*  wara  40  to 
*       45. 

'       Q    And  tha  thIrdT 
^       A     Vcungt  ald-twantias*  lata  twantlas* 

0    Hon  long  did  tha  aaatlng  contlnua  aaong  those 
^   paople  on  that  Saturday) 

Thay  caaa  In  batwaan  9t00  and  lOtOO  on 
Saturday  aornlngf  and  I  laft  tha  offica  at  8tao  and  thay 
Mare  still  there*  8t30  at  night. 

Old  you  hear  any  of  tha  discusslont 

What  I  heard  mss  In  a  foreign  language. 

Nothing  In  Engllsht 

No. 

You  Moren't  asked  to  type  anything  at  that 

I  Mas  asked  to  aake  a  copy  of  a  paper. 

Do  yau  recall  Mhat  that  paper  Mas7 

No*  X  don't.   It  Mas  Just  a  single  sheet. 

Handwritten?   Typed? 

No*  It  Mas  acre  like  a  for**  not  Ilka  a  letter 


9 

A 

10 

Saturday 

Mere  sti 

0 

A 

0 

A 

0 

aeet  ing? 

A 

Q 

20 

A 

21 

0 

22 

A 

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but  Ilk*  a  bbslnasi  fori  of  so««  kind. 

Q     You  don't  reaoabor  what  Mas  on  Itt 
'       *    No. 

Q     Old  you  Itavo  before  the  aeetlng  endedt 


^       A    Yes*  I  did. 


Q    What  tiao  did  you  leaveT 

A    About  8t30  that  night. 

Q    Do  yau  reaeaber  when  this  mssT 


^       A     I  think  It  Mas  about  aid-Septeabcr . 

Q    When  Mas  the  next  occasion  you  ■a't  Oliver 
11 


North? 

A     It  Mas  another  Saturday*  In  probably  October. 

Q    Oft 

A     *86.   Again  It  Mas  at  the  office.   I  Mas 
Marking  on  a  Saturday.   I  think  I  Mas  In  there  doing 
soae  personal  typing.   I  knoM  Mr.  Secord  Has  there.   I 
Mas  on  ay  May  to  pick  up  soae  lunch*  and  01  lie  North 
pulled  Into  the  parking  lot. 
19  I  askeo  hia  If  he  Msnted  a  sandMich  and  took 

*   the  lunch  bacif  upstairs*  and  stayed  a  fOM  alnutes  after 

21  that. 

22  Q    Has  Hr.  North  still  aeetlng  Mith  Nr.  Secord 


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^   Mhen  you  left? 


A    Yes. 


^       Q    014  you  hoar  any  of  that  discussion? 

*  A     No. 

5 


Q    Whan  Mas  tha  third  occasion  that  you  saw  or 
'   aat  Oliver  North? 

'       A     It  was  In  Deceaber  of  '86. 
'       0     Before  Chrlstaas? 
^       A    Yes*  before  Chrlstaas. 

Q     Would  you  describe  what  happened  on  that 
occas Ion? 

A     Mr*  Secord  had  a  rooa  at  the  Eabassy  Suites 
and  called  ard  asked  ae  to  bring  soae  papers  over  froa 
the  office*   I  took  thea  over  there*  and  when  I  arrived 
01 1 le  North  aas  there. 
Q    Anyone  else? 
^^       A    Brilndan  Sullivan  and  Tea  Creen. 
^'       Q     ^Id  you  knoM  Toa  Green  before  you  saw  hia  In 
^^   the  Eabassy  Suite? 
»       A    Yes* 

^       Q    And  Mho  did  you  knoM  hia  to  be? 
^       A    Kr*  Secord's  attorney* 


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0     What  papers  did  nr.  Secord  ~  let  ae  stop  that 
for  a  second* 

The  Eabassy  Suite  Is  a  hotell 

A     Yet. 

Q    Uhera  Is  It  located? 

A     It's  in  Tysons  Corner  on  7*  Leesburg  Pike. 

Q  In  VIrglnlaT 
°  A  In  Virginia. 
^       Q     About  bOH  far  fro*  STTGI's  offices? 

A     Lets  than  a  aiie. 

0    What  papers  did  Hr.  Secord  ask  you  to  bring  to 
his  rooB  at  the  Eabassy  Suite? 

A    He  had  a  couple  of  boxes  In  our  storage  area 
that  Mere  records*  telephone  records*  telex  records* 
copies  of  telexes*  travel  receipts.   I  think  that  covers 
It.   Copies  of  Invoices.   He  asked  ae  to  bring  those 
over. 

Q    He  asked  you  to  bring  those  boxes  over? 

A    Yes. 


20       Q    Had  thote  boxes  with  records  been  asseabled 


shortly  before  trat  day  In  Oeceaber? 


22       A    Part  of  it.   Part  of  thea  had  been  there. 


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Part  of  thea  M«re  old  records  that  our  accountants  were 
working  with  for  the  previous  year*   So  they  worKed  out 
of  those  boxes  to  docuaent  travel  and  expensest  and  mo 
had  gone  through  and  put  soae  telexes  and  taken  soae 
stuff  out  of  ay  office*  receipts  for  the  current  year* 
and  put  thea  in  that  roaa«  because  there  was  a  sore 

secure  lock  en  that  door. 

a 

Q     Vou  liaa  done  that  shortly  before  this  day  In 

Oeoeaber  IS8£  when  you  went  to  the  hotel*  correct? 

A    Yes. 

Q     About  hOM  Buch  before? 

A     The  first  part  of  Oeceaber  we  did  that. 

0    Has  that  the  saae  day  you  participated  in 

shreddlns  docuaerts  at  STTCI? 

A     That  I  took  thee  over? 

0     No*  no.   That  you  asseabled  that  box  with  the 

docuaents. 

A     Part  of  It. 

13        Q     We'll  coae  back  to  that  in  a  aoaent.   Let's  go 

^   to  the  day  that  you  delivered  the  docuaents  to  the 

2^   hotel. 

^  fir.  Secord  asked  you  to  bring  the  box  over. 


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1 

2 

3 

4 

S 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


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Hera  th*r*  tuo  boxas? 

A     Thtr*  ktr*  two  boxes. 

Q     Vou  brought  tbaa  over? 

A    Yes. 

0    And  sak  Hr.  Secord*  Mr.  Northt  fir.  Creen*  and 
Mr.  Sullivan  In  the  roo««  correct? 

A     Yes. 

0    You  Mara  Introduced  to  Hr.  Sullivan? 

A     Yes*  I  Mas. 

Q    Had  you  aat  hia  before? 

A     No. 

Q    Hera  you  told  who  he  Mas? 

A     Yes. 

Q    Who  Mere  you  told  that  ha  Mas? 

A     That  he  was  Ollle  North's  attorney. 

Q     kiho  told  you  that? 

A    whoever  Introduced  us«  and  I  don't  raaeabcr 
Mhathar  it  Mas  fir.  North  or  Hr.  Secordt  one  of  the  two. 

Q     You  delivered  the  boxes? 

A     Yes.   I  took  one  upstairs  with  ae.   Then  fir. 
Secord  asicad  ae  to  put  thea  in  the  trunk  of  his  car*  so 
I  took  It  back  downstairs.   Ho  gave  ae  his  kayst  I  put 


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thaa  in  th«  trunk  of  his  car«  than  took  the  keys  back 
upsta  ir !• 

Q     Ano  gave  thes  to  Hr*  Secord? 

A    1o  dr.  Steord* 

Q     And  left? 

*        A     And  left. 

7 


Q  What  kind  of  car  did  Mr.  Secord  have? 

A  It  Mas  an  *84  Cadillac*  dark  blue*  the  long 
one*  Sedan  de  VI  lie* 

Q  He  sti  II  drives  that? 

A  Yes*  he  does* 

Q  Old  you  ever  set  those  boxes  of  docuaents 
back? 

A  Yes. 

Q  Uhen? 

A  I  believe  It  Mas  March  of  this  year. 

^^       Q  Last  aonth? 

«       A  Yes. 

^^       0  Apprev  laately  Mhen  In  Harch? 

^       A  I  don't  reaeaber.   I  Just  one  aorning  went  In 

21  and  one  of  the  boxes  was  there. 

22  Q  What  about  the  other  one? 


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A     Th«  other  one  I  was  told  waa  brougtit  back 
^   before  the  Independent  counsel  caee  In  and  took  It  back 
^   out  again. 

Q    When  did  the  independent  counsel  take  the 
'   botes? 

^       A     It  Mas  tMO  weeks  ago  yettordayt  I  think.   I 

7 

a 

9 
10 

^^  Q  Was   that    the    last  occasion    that    you    saw    Mr 

^^      North*    that    day    In   Oeceaber   at    the   hotel? 


don't  knoM. 

Q    Mere  copies  —  did  you  sake  copies  of  what  the 
Independent  counsel  took? 

A    No. 


13 


14 


15 


A     Yts. 

Q    Has  he  called  your  office  since  then  to  your 


knowledge? 


^^       A    Not  to  ay  knowledge. 

17       Q  H,g  nr.  Secord  or  Mr.  Hakia  or  Nr.  Outton 

IB   asked  you  to  sake  any  calls  to  Mr.  North  since  then? 


19 


A     No. 


^        Q     Has  he  asked  you  to  aake  any  cal Is  to  Brendan 
2^   Sullivan  since  then? 
22       A    No. 


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0  Have    you    taken   any   calls    froa  Mr.    Sullivan   at 

the    office? 

A  No. 

Q    NOM*  there  was  a  day  that  mo  started  to  talk 
about  soae  aoaents  ago  at  the  office*  Mhen  you  were 
asked  to  destroy  certain  docuaentsi  aa  I  right? 

A    Yes. 

Q    When  Mas  that? 

A    That  Mas  In  Oeceaber*  the  first  part  of 
Oeceaber . 

Q    Of? 

A     •86. 

Q    Would  you  describe  as  best  you  recall  It  Mhat 
happened  on  that  day? 

A    Hr.  Secord  caae  in  and  decided  mo  needed  to  go 
through  our  files.   I  think  he  actually  Mont  through  our 
subject  files  and  took  anything  out  that  he  Manted 
destroyed  or  put  Into  the  storage  boxes. 

I  Ment  through  the  telex  files  and  ay  files 


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^  a  person's  na«««  anything  that  raftrancad  aonay*  or  I 

^  think  I  took  out  things  that  rafarancad  part  nuabars* 

^  lists  of  part  nuabarst  9a«a  thoaa  to  Nr.  Sacord  to  go 

*  through* 

'  Q    And  than  Mhat  happanad? 

*  A    Anything  ha  Mantad  dastroyad*  ha  gav*  back  and 
^  wa  shraddad  thea* 

^  Q    Thara  kaa  a  shraddar  In  tha  offlcaT 

*  A    tas, 

^^  Q    Mhar*  kas  that  locatad? 

11  A    It*s  In  our  llttia  kitchan  araa. 

12  Q    MUg  participated  In  shradding  tha  docuaants  on 

'3  that  day? 

14  A     I  did*  Joan  Corbin*  and  Bob  Outton.   And  I 

^'  don't  ballavs  I  avar  ssm  Mr.  Sacord  shrad  anything.   I 

^8  Has  not  standing  thara.   But  again,  that  Mas  In  another 

^^  rooa* 

18  Q    But  Br.  Sacord  was  telling  you  to  shred  the 

^^  doeuaents? 

20  A    Yes. 

21  0    Old  «r.  Seeord  tell  you.  then  or  any  other 

22  iiaa  attar.  eh»  he  wanted  those  docuaents  shredded? 


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A    ho. 


^        Q    Have  you  cvar  disoussvd  tha  shredding  with  Hr. 


"   Hakia? 
*  A     No. 

^        Q    Old  nr.  Outton  —  has  Mr*  Outton  avar  said  to 
you  Mhy  tha  4ocuBants  were  shraddad? 
A    No*  ha  hasn't* 

0    Old  tha  docuaant  shradding  taka  placa  on  aora 
'   than  Just  that  day  In  Oacaabar  that  you*va  oascrlbadt 
A    Yes*  It  did. 
Q    Hon  aany  days  after? 

A     I  den*t  knoM*  aaybe  a  couple  of  days.   It  Mas 
Just*  I  had  steno  books  that  I  had  kept  aver  since  I 
Morked  there*  that  I  aade  all  ay  notes  on.   Those  ware 
destroyed.   !*■  not  sure  they  Mere  destroyed  on  tha  saae 
day. 


^^  Ua  destroyed  telephone  log  books*  where  you 

^^   have  a  copy  cf  Mho  called  In*  phone  aessages.   Those 
19 


Mere  destroyed. 

It  was  Just  over  a  period  of  days.   It  Mas  not 
Just  one  day  standing  there  shredding. 


^       0    NoM*  you  have  aentloned  coaaunlcatlon  devices 


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that  M«re  in  tht  office.   When  did  you  first  !••  thoa  in 
your  offlcosl 

A    Mhtn  I  €«■•  bacit  to  worlct  I  guass*  part-tiaa 
in  tti*  fall  of  •86. 

Q    Old  iho  davlces  arrlva  aftar  that  or  waro  thay 
airaady  thert? 
7 


A    I  balleva  thay  Mara  thara. 

a 

Q    Do  you  knoM  fro*  Mhera  Mr.  Secord  obtalnad 

a 

thosa   devlcast 

^°  A  It's   part^tlaa    In    *8S»   not    *86. 

0  Part-tlaat    *89.      Lat*s    go    bacit    so    th«   record 

is   ciaar. 

You   caaa   bacit    to   aoritt    you   wara   aoriilng 

part-tlae    in    1989? 

A  Yas. 

Q    Oo  yau  recall  the  coaaunlcations  devices  being 

there  during  that  part-tlae  period? 


11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 

^'       A    During  the  suaaer  of  '85  I  did  not  aork  at 

^'  all.   Mhen  I  caaa  back  in  Septeaber*  I  think  It  was 

^  around  October  I  raaeaber  the  encoding  aaehlnas. 

21  Q  October    1985? 

22  A  Yes. 


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^        0     Oo  you  knoM  how  those  aachines  got  to  the 

^   office*  Hherc  they  cane  froa? 

^       A     I  assuBC  Hr*  Secord  brought  the*  In* 

*  Q    Oo  yeu  knoM  froa  where  he  got  the«? 

'       A     I  understood  he  got  the*  froa  the  NSC. 

*  0    The  National  Security  Council? 
'       A     Yes. 

'       Q    On  Mhat  is  that  understanding  based? 
^       A     I  believe  he  told  ae  they  were  froa  the  NSC. 
^^       0    That's  your  recollection? 

A    Yes. 

0    Old  Nr.  Secord  tell  you  Mho  at  the  NSC  had 
given  h  la  these  devices? 

A     I  believe  he  said  he  had  gotten  thea  froa 
Oil  le  North. 

Q     Is  that  your  recollection  of  Mhat  Mr.  Secord 
told  you? 
^'       A     Yes. 

^^       Q    Old  nr.  Secord  tell  you  for  Mhat  purpose  he 
^   obtained  these  devices  froa  Nr.  North? 
^^       A    Hell*  you  could  stay  In  coaaunlcat ions  and 
^   they  couldn't  be  —  like  a  Hiretap  on  your  phone)  I 


70 


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don't  knoM  Mhcthcr  you  could  tap  into  the**  but  you 
couldn't  understand  the*  because  they  were  in  codes. 

Q     Ho«  aany  such  aachlnes  Mere  there  in  the 
office? 

A    At  that  tlae  there  was  one. 

*  0    And  Mas  there  a  tiae  that  there  was  aore  than 
7 
8 

*  0    When  was  that? 
A     Just  recently  there  were  five  In  there*  In  the 


one? 

A    Yes. 


office* 

0 


Old  that  —  how  long  after  the  first  did  the 


10 
11 
12 

^^  other  four  —  "" 

14       A     Hell*  let's  see.   When  Bob  Dutton  started  In 

^^  Hay  of  •86,  ha  received  one.   For  soae  reason*  It  see«ed 

^*  like  there  was  an  extra  one  there  that  was  In  the  file 

■•^  cabinet.   I  don't  know  where  that  caae  froa. 

18  4„j  then  by  the  end  of  last  year  there  were 

^®  two  aore.   I  don't  know  where  they  caae  froa. 

20       Q     They're  aultlplylng.   They  not  only  were 

2^  called*  but  they  were  fruitful. 

22  Art  there  any  aachines  still  In  the  office  at 


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^  STT6I? 

^       A     Yas*  there  are  toa«  there. 

3       Q    Hon  ■any? 

*  A     There  are  five.   They're  not  the  big  encoding 

^  Machines  that  we  had  before.   These  are  very  saall. 

^       Q    Baby  aachlnes?   This  Is  getting  serious  now. 

^       A    Yes*  they  are  very  tiny  ones. 

^       0    What  happened  to  the  big  ones? 

^       A    Mr.  Secord  took  the*  out  of  the  office. 
^°       Q    Mhenf 

^^       A     It's  been  in  the  past  couple  of  weeks. 
^^       Q    Oo  you  knoM  where  he  took  then  to? 
''^       A    No.   It  «as  ay  understanding  that  —  I  don't 

^^  knoM  whether  they  were  returned.   He  and  Tea  Creen 

^^  either  returned  the*  to*  I  don't  know  if  it  was  the 

^^  independent  counsel  or  the  FBI. 

^'       Q    Here  the  saaller  aachlnes  separate  Machines? 
^^       A    They  were  never  used.   I  never  saw  these 

^^  used.   I  don't  know  where  they  caee  fro*.   They  were 

^  Just  there.   I  think  Bob  Just  told  ae  that  they  were  old 

^^  aachlnes  that  they  had  first  used  at  one  tiae*  and  I 

^  don't  know  where  they  caae  froa. 


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^        0     Old  you  transcribe  Messages  that  vert  received 


on  the  big  eachlres? 

A     Yest  I  did. 

0    Mere  they  shoitn  on  a  cathode  ray  tube  or 
terainal? 

•  A     Yes»  there's  a  little  bitty  one.   There's  like 
^   a  wlndOM  that  mIII  tal«e  up  to  two  lines  at  a  tiae. 

^        0     And  then  you'd  type  it? 

*  A     Right. 
Q    Oo  you  reaeMber  the  nave  COP? 
A     Yes. 

Q    And  did  you  understand  Mho  used  that  naae? 
A     No.   I  Just  reaewber  seeing  it  on  one  of  the 

■ossages. 

15       0    Okay,   You  never  heard*  aside  froa  anything  in 
^"   the  noMspaper*  that  COP  was  a  naae  for  Hr.  Secord? 
I^       A    No. 

18       Q    Do  you  reaeaber  the  naae  Mr.  Cood? 
«       A    Yes. 
^       Q    Uho  was  nr.  Cood? 

21  A     Ollle  North. 

22  Q     HoM  did  you  know  that? 


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1 

A 

2 

0 

3 

recal 11 

4 

A 

5 

yaar  • 

e 

Q 

7 

A 

8 

Q 

9 

A 

10 

Q 

11 

A 

12 

Q 

13 

Stceit 

14 

A 

15 

Q 

16 

A 

17 

it   was 

18 

0 

19 

A 

20 

0 

21 

A 

Mr.  Sacord  told  ■«. 

And  ha  told  you  that  as  of  Mhant  do  you 

I  don't  racall*   Soaa  tiae  ovar  tha  past 

Bafora  Novaabar  19867 

Yas. 

Okay.   Oo  you  reaaaber  tha  naaa  Blacklat 

No. 

Staal? 

Yas. 

And  froB  Hhare  do  you  raaaabar  tha  naaa 

Again*  froa  tha  ancoding  aachlnas. 
Mhat  atout  Castillo? 

Faalllar*  but  I  don't  knoM  froa  whare*  unless 
t    aachlnas. 
Coaaz? 

Yast  tha  aachlna. 

And  do  you  knoM  Mho  ha  Mas  or  sha  Mas? 
I  knaM  ha  had  soaathlng  to  do  Mith  Cantral 
^   Aaartcan  oparatlons. 


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^  Q    What  about  the  na«a  Fernandez? 

*  A    No. 

^  Q     Rodrtguez*  Felix  Rodriguez? 

*  A     Yes*  I  reaeaber  his  naae  froa  the  Machines. 
'  Q    Do  you  knoM  what  his  Involveaent  with  Hr. 

Secord  Mas? 

^  A    No. 

*  0    Do  you  know  Mhere  he  was? 

'  A     I  assuaed  he  was  In  Central  Aaerlca.   He  caae 

^°  here  one  tiae.   I  reaeab«r*  I  think  It  was  Bob*  saying 

^^  that  he  was  staying  at  the  Mestpark  Motel. 

''^  Q     The  Uestpark  where? 

■"  A     Tysons  Corner. 

^*  Q           Uhen  was  that? 

1'  A    naybe  last  spring. 

!•  0     The  spring  of  IS86? 

17  A     *e6*  or  the  suaaer. 

18  0    Old  nr.  Secord  or  Hr.  Outton  go  to  aeet  with 
^*  Hr.  Rodriguez  at  the  hotel? 

20  A     I  don't  know. 

21  Q     Now*  you've  aentloned  Central  Aaerica  several 

22  tiaes*  and  earlier  aentloned  soaethlng  about  the 


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^   oparatlon  in  Central  Aa«rlca»   What  was  your 


understanding  of  what  your  coapany  was  doing  In  Central 
A«erlca«  Mhat  business  they  had  there? 

A    Hell*  no  one  ever  explained  It  to  ae* 


^       Q    What  did  you  think? 


A     I  Has  told*  when  Bob  Outton  caae  to  Mork*  that 
he  Mas  to  oversee  the  Central  Aaerlcan  operation.   I 


^   just  assuaed  that  they  Mare  Involved  In  resupplying* 


9 

A    Hells  the  contras. 


Q    Resupplying  Mho? 
10 


^^       Q    Old  anyone  ever  tell  you  that? 

12 


A     No. 

0    On  Mhat  did  you  base  the  assuaptlon? 

A    Hell«  because  soae  of  these  Messages  Mould 

coae  In  and  they  Mould  be  asking  for  certain  supplies* 

aedlcal  supplies*  boots*  unlforas*  netting*  parachutes* 
that  kind  of  thing. 

Q    Old  you  knoM  the  naae  Adolfo  Calero? 

A    Yes. 

Q    HoM  did  you  know  that  naae? 

A    He's  called  the  office  before. 


^       Q    And  has  Hr.  Secord  called  hia? 


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A     I  believe  so. 

Q     And  did  you  Knon  that  he  Mas  a  contra  leader? 

A     Yes*  I  did. 

Q    Hon  about  Mr.  Arturo  Cruz? 

A    No. 

Q     Adolfo  Robelo? 

A     No. 

Q     tvwt    Beba? 

A     No. 

0     Mhat  did  you  understand  fir.  Outton*s  role  was 
In  tens  of  overseeing  the  Central  Aaerlcan  operation? 
Oo  you  knoM  uhat  his  specific  job  duties  were? 

A     Just  tc  kind  of  be  a  eanager  and  Keep  things 
running  SMOOthty*  and  I  guess  take  care  of  the  people 
they  were  dealing  with.   That's  Just  ay  opinion. 

0     Did  Nr.  Outton  or  Hr.  Secord  keep  a  diary  or 
appolntaent  book? 

A  Bob  Dutton  has  always  kept  very  detailed 
notes.  I  wouldn't  call  it  a  dlaryi  but  I  guess  an 
appointaent  book. 

Q    liOM  abcut  Hr.  Secord? 


77 


**  A  klhat    we    noraaily    do    Is*    if    he    has   a    Meeting    or 


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soavthing  ite'r*  anar*  of«  we'll  urit*  It  on  his  calendar 
^   that  h«  kccpi  on  his  desk.   Personallyt  I  don't  •>-  If  he 
keeps  a  personal  one*  I  don't  know* 

Q    You  didn't  keep  a  book  for  hia? 

A     No. 

Q    Or  far  Mr.  Dutton? 

A    No. 

Q    What  atout  Hr.  Hakia? 
'       A     I  did  not  keep  one  for  hIa. 

Q    Old  he  have  a  calendar  or  a  diary  of  his  own 
that  you  knon  of? 

A    Yes*  he  did.   He  carried  one.   I  don't  know 
how  detailed  It  wast  but  he  carried  one. 

Q    Old  Hr.  Button  travel  on  business! 

A    Yes«  he  did. 

Q    To  where? 

A     I  reaeaber  two  trips  to  El  Salvador. 

Q    Uhcnl 

A     I  know  one  was  —  I  guess  they  were  both  over 
the  suaeer.   I  think  he  was  there  In  August  or 
Scpteaber*  ard  I *a  not  sure  of  the  other  tiae  that  he 
went  down  there. 


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^        Q     Anyplace  else? 

^        A     H«  M«nt  to  California*  h«  Ment  to  San  Jose  or 

^   Los  Catost  tc  whore  fir.  Hakla  lives. 

*  Q  Where  In  Cal tfornia? 
^        A     Los  Gatos. 

*  Q     AnyMbere  else  In  CalifornlaT 

^       A    Oh»  he's  a  consultant  for  Lockheed.   He  did  a 

*  couple  of  trips  with  thea.   1  think  he  went  to  Ontario. 
^   California*  for  Lockheed. 

Do  you  know  for  how  long  Toa  Crean  has  been 
I  with  Rr.  Secord? 
SInca  I  have  worked  for  hia. 
Since  you  started? 
Yes. 
And  did  you  always  know  hla  as  Secord's 

Yes. 

Has  there  another  Creen? 
Not  that  I  know  of. 
Did  you  now  of  a  Hr.  Tony  Creene? 
Oh*  yes.   He'i  called  the  office  on  a  couple 
^   of  occasions. 


10 

Q 

11 

assocla^ 

12 

A 

13 

Q 

14 

A 

15 

Q 

16 

lawyer? 

17 

A 

18 

Q 

19 

A 

20 

g 

21 

A 

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ao 


^        0  And  did  you  ever  call  hta? 

^       A  No«  I  don't  bcllev*  I  havo. 

^       0  And  Hho  did  he  ask  to  speak  to  on  those 
occas lenst 

A  Mr*  Secord* 

Q  Oo  you  know  Mhcre  he  Mas  calling  froa? 

A  No.   He  has  a  British  accent. 

Q  Oo  you  know  what  his  business  was  or  what  his 

^   reason  for  ealllngt 

^°       A  Well*  at  one  tiae  I  thought  he  alght  be 
11 


associated  ulth  Oavid  Nalkert  because  I  think  we 
received  telexes  froa  both  of  thea  and  It  seeas  like  It 
was  the  saae  call  letters  at  the  bottoa.   So  that's 
where  I  aade  the  association  with  OavId  Malker. 

Q    Oo  yau  know  the  naae  Noel  Koch*  K-o-c-h? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  who  do  you  know  hia  to  bef 

A    He  was«  I  think  —  I *a  not  sure  what  his  title 
was  —  was  like  an  Under  Secretary  of  Defense  or 
Assistant  Secretary  of  Defense. 

Q    And  how  did  you  coae  to  know  his  naae? 
^       A    Nr.  Secord  was  a  aeaber  of  the  SOPAG*  and  the 


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^  Beatings  M«r«  arranged  through  Noel  Koch's  office.   It*s 

^  a  panel  eade  up  of  retired  generals  and  adalrals  that 

^  coae  In  and«  I  guess*  give  advice  on  probleas. 

*  Q    Mhat  do  those  Initials  stand  for? 

'       A     Special  Operations  Planning  Advisory  Croup. 

*  Q  And  Is  SCPAC  still  In  existence*  to  your 
knoMledge? 

^        A     I  think  it  Is*  but  I  don't  think  Mr.  Secord  Is 


on  the  panel  any  longer. 

Q    When  did  he  cease  to  be  on  the  panel? 


"        A     I  eo«*t  know.   !•■  not  sure  if  It's  a  cycle* 
^^   Mhere  you  serve  a  year  or  two  and  then  they  bring  In 
13 


different  people.   1  don't  think  he's  done  It  in  the 
past  year. 
15       Q     Qi^  (,,  have  contact  with  Hr .  Koch  during 

'^  IS86? 

"  A  Yes. 

18  Q  Old  he  call  hla*  Koch  call  Secord? 

1*  A  Back  and  forth. 

-^  Q  Back  and  forth. 

21  Any  letters  to  or  froa  Mr.  Koch  that  you're 

^   aware  of? 


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A    Not  that  !*■  anare  of. 

Q    NoH*  on  tha  telexes  that  you  either  brought  to 
question  that  day  at  the  Embassy  Suite  or  telexes  that 
you  shredded  In  the  days  before*  do  you  recall  the 
subject  setter  of  those  telexes? 

A    The  ones  that  Mere  —  soae  of  thea  were  back 
and  forth  to  CSP«  and  It  would  be  llket  again*  Manting 
to  knoM  Mhat  happened  to  funds  that  Mere  supposed  to 
have  coee  In  at  a  certain  tiae*  asking  thea  to  fol Iom  up 
on  It* 

There  Mere  soae  In  connection  m I th  Udall*  that 
Me  Manted  to  know  Mhat  had  happened  to  the  aoney*  If 
they  Mere  trying  to  collect  It*   I  knoH  there  Mas  one 
note  froa  David  halker*  too* 

I  can't  reaeaber  all  of  thea. 

Q     Do  you  recall  any  Mention  of  Moapons* 
aunltionst  in  any  of  these  telexes  or  other  docuaents 
that  Mere  shredded  or  brought  to  Secord  that  day? 

A     !*■  not  sure  they  ever  aentloned  Meapons 
specif  leal ly. 

Q    Hell*  let  ae  see*   Do  you  reaeaber  any  telexes 
^   that  aentloned  BioMpipes? 


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^        A     BloMplpat? 

'        Q     Do  you  reMeaber  ever  seen  telexes  like  that? 

A    No*   You  know*  soMetlaest  like  I  saidt  there 
Mere  soee  that  had  like  part  nuabers*   But  tihen  you  get 
into  a  series  of  part  nuabers  and  what  it  wast  I  dldn*t 
pay  attention. 

0  Old  you  ever  hear  any  discussion  In  the  office 
of  aoney  obtained  froa  any  foreign  governaents  to  assist 
the  contrast 

A    No. 

0    Do  you  knoM  Mhether  Mr.  Sacord  had  any 
dealings  with  the  governaent  of  Saudi  Arabia  on  that 
aattert 

A     I  doa*t  knoM. 

Q     You  don't  know  one  way  or  the  other? 

A     No. 

Q    HoM  about  Taiwan  or  Korea? 

A     I  don't  knoM. 

Q  Brunei*  B-r-u-n-e-l? 

A     No. 

0    Okay.    Did  you  know  the  naae  Rob  OMen} 


A    No. 


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Q  How  about  Robert  Earl? 

A  Y«f. 

0  Who  did  you  know  hi*  to  b«? 

A  That  ho  Morked  in  OIlie  North's  office  at  the 


1 

2 
3 

4 

^   NSC. 

Q    Hon  did  you  coaa  to  knoM  hia? 

^       A    He  would  call  the  office  also. 

3 

0    And  ask  to  speak  to  whoa? 

'       A     I  think  aost  of  the  tiae  he  talked  to  Bob 
10 


Dutton. 
11 


a    Did  Nr.  Button  ever  ask  you  to  place  any  calls 


to  Mr.  Earl? 


A    No. 


Q    Do  you  know  business  Dutton  had  with  Earl? 
A    No. 


14 

15 

Q    Old  you  ever  know  what  business  Secord  had 

^^  with  Lieutenant  Colonel  North? 
«       A    NO. 

^'       Q    Old  you  ever  know  what  they  were  working  on 

*  together? 

^^       A    No*  I  ^aM   never  told. 
^       Q    Weren't  you  curious? 


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'        A     I  thought  —  noMt  this  is  Just  what  I 

^  thought.   No  ono  aver  told  ■«.   I  thought  th«y  w«r« 

"^  Morking  on  a  rescue  atteapt  for  the  hostages  Mho  Mere 

*  being  held  In  Beirut. 

'       Q    HoM  did  you  coae  to  that  conclusion? 

*  A     Once  in  a  Mhile  —  Mell«  I  think  on  one 

^  occaslont  Mr.  Secord  said  soaething  to  the  effect  that* 

^  soaething  about  the  hostages  being  releaseo  and 

'  everybody  Mould  be  heros.   And  so  froa  that  I  assuaed 

^°  that's  Mhat  thay  Mere  Morking  on. 

11        Q     Old  you  ever  have  reason  to  think  they  Mere 

^^  MorkIng  on  anything  that  related  to  Central  Aaerlca7 


A     Yes. 


Q 


Mhat  gave  you  reason  to  think  that? 


15       A     1  guess  because  of  the  Messages  on  these 

^'  encoding  aachlnes  that  went  back  and  forth,  because  1 

^^  Masn't  SMare  that  they  used  thea  for  anything  to  do  Mith 

^8  Europe.   I  aisuaed  they  -ere  Just  tor  that  operation 

^^  dOMn  south. 

20  0  Old    you    ever    ask    Hr.    Secord    —    you've    traveled 

21  Mith   hia    froa   tiae    to    tiae    and    sa-    hia   —    Mhat    business 

22  he    had    that    involved   a    aeaber    of    the    National    Security 


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^   Council  staff  and  Central  AaarlcaT 
^        «    No. 

Q    Hera  you  curious  about  it? 

A     I  aas  curlousf  but  I  also  know  Hr.  Sacord  wall 
enough  that  it  was  soaathing  that  he  was  not  going  to 

toll  ae  even  if  I  asked. 
^       0    What  about  Hr.  Dutton? 
^       A     I*«a  never  asked  hla. 
Q    Why  not? 

A     I  ooa't  know.   I  Just  never  have. 
0    Old  you  have  any  qualas  about  taking  cash  to 

the  Old  Executive  Office  Building  for  Lieutenant  Colonel 
Morth? 

A    Yes*  that  concerned  ae. 

Q    Did  nr.  Outton*  when  he  gave  you  instructions* 

aake  It  clear  that  the  cash  was  intended  for  Lieutenant 

Colonel  North? 
A    Yes. 

Q     Old  he  say  to  you*  Ollle*s  waiting  for  It* 
soaething  like  that? 
21       A    He  did  say  Ollle  was  waiting  for  it. 
^       Q    And  It  concerned  you? 


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A  I    Mas    concarnad   carrying    the   cash* 

Q  Uhy'd    you    do    Itt 

A    Hell*  because  I*d  already  said  I  Mould  do  It 
before  I  knew  Mhat  I  Mas  picking  up.   And  then  I 
thought*  Mel  I*  I  alght  as  mo  I  I  go  ahead  and  do  lt(  I'd 
already  said  I  Mould. 

Q    Old  you  express  your  concern  to  Mr.  Outtont 

A    Yes.   I  Mas  concerned  about*  Mhat  If  I  Mont 
through  the  little  detector  thing  and  they  ssm*  you 
knoM*  stacks  of  aoney  In  this  envelope.   And  he  said 
they  Mould  have  It  packaged  In  a  May  that  It  Mouldn't  be 
a  problea. 

And  then  he  says*  you  knoM*  you  don't  have 
anything  to  Morry  about.   And  I  guess  I  Just  took  hi«  at 
his  Moro. 

0     Old  you  ever  ask  hi*  at  all*  or  Secord*  Mhat 
the  reason  was  for  this  cash? 

A    No*  I  didn't. 

Q    Any  understanding  of  Mhat  it  Mas  for? 

A    No.   I  thought  it  Mas  strange  to  bring  aoney 
up  and  take  It  to  the  Executive  Office  Building.   I 
could  understand  If  they  Mcre  taking  aoney  doMn«  if  thay 


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Mere  using  It  for  Nicaragua  or  El  Salvador. 

But  no*  I  Mas  hind  of  puzzled  at  that. 

Q    HoM  about  Hr.  Nlr?   Have  you  ever  heard  of 
hia? 

A    No*  I  don't  think  so. 

Q    Nlarodl? 

A     Yes*  but  !*■  not  sure  if  it's  not  fro«  the 
press* 

Q  ,    Frea  the  press  since  Noveaber? 

A     I  don't  recall  hearing  his  naae  In  relation  to 
the  office. 

Q    Do  you  reaeabcr  Mhen  the  press  disclosed  the 
dealings  bctkeen  our  governaent  and  Iran  on  the  hostages 
in  Noveaber  19867 

A     tes. 

Q    Old  nr.  Secord  ever  talk  to  you  about  that 
after  It  Mas  disclosed?   Did  he  aake  any  coaaents* 
observations  to  you*  about  the  brouhaha  In  the  press? 

A    Ot^er  than  the  press  didn't  knoM  Mhat  they 
Mere  doing  and  were  aessing  everything  up* 

0     Old  he  tell  you  Mhat  they  Mere  aessing  up? 
^       A    No.   Oh*  he  did  say  soaething  about  he  thought 


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that  thay  M«r«  endangering  people's  lives. 

Q     Then  you  recall  the  Attorney  General  of  the 
United  States  had  a  press  conference  In  Noveaber«  at 
Hhlch  he  announced  that  there  was  reason  to  think  that 
■oneys  that  had  been  Involved  In  the  Iran  transaction 
had  been  diverted  to  the  eontras* 
Do  you  rccal  I  that? 

A     Uh-^aa. 

0    Old  nr.  Secord  ever  talk  to  you  about  that 
announceaent t  express  any  vIoms  to  you  concerning  that 
■atter? 

A    Noi  he  did  not. 

Q    Old  he  express  any  concern  about  that  aatter 
to  you?   Has  he  ever  discussed  It  with  you  at  all? 

A    Not  he  hasn*t« 

Q    Ho«  about  Mr.  Outton*  saae  questions? 


89 


A  No. 

^"        Q  HaklB? 

«         A  No. 

^       Q  Old  Hr.  Secord  travel  to  Geneva  in  the  fall  of 

21   1986? 

^        A  He  Mas  there  in  Septeabcr.   Yes*  Septeabert 


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Mh«n  I  Mas  th«va* 

Q    Oo  y»u  recall  If  h«  was  there  In  hoveitber? 

A    I  con't  recall  nhethcr  he  Mas  or  not* 

Q    Has  he  been  to  Geneva  since  Noveaber  1S86  that 
you  knoM  of? 

A     I  believe  he  has  traveled  to  Geneva* 

Q    bhenl 

A     In  the  past  three  or  four  weeks* 

0    Oo  you  knoM  If  Mr*  Hakia  Mas  there  at  the  saae 
tlae? 

A     I  b«li-eve  he  Mas* 

Q    HoM  about  Mr*  Outton? 

A    No. 

Q  Old  yob  aake  those  travel  arrangeaents  for  Rr* 

Secord  three  Meeks  ago? 

A    I  don't  reaeaber  If  I  did  or  not* 

Q    What  travel  agency  did  you  use? 

A     BT  Travel* 

0     In  McLean? 

A    Vesf  or  Tysons  Corner* 

Q    And  did  Nr*  Secord  soaetlaes  aake  travel 
arrangeaents  for  hiaself? 


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A    Yes*  ht  did. 

Q    Do  you  knoM  If  he  used  the  saa*  agancyT 

A     I  ooa't  know  if  he  did  or  not.   !*■  assuaing 
he  did. 

Q  For  l»ai»  long  xas  Hr.  Secord  In  Ceneva  three 
Moeks  ago? 

A     I  think  he  was  there  Just  for  a  few  days. 

Q    Do  you  knoM  Mhat  the  purpose  of  that  trip 
Mas? 

A    Not  1  den*t. 

Q  Aside  froa  that  trip*  has  he  aade  any  other 
trips  to  Geneva  that  you're  aware  of  since  the  end  of 
Noveabar? 

A    Not  that  I*«  aware  of*  unless  I  could  look 
back  through  travel  records. 

Q    Shirley*  have  you  told  Hr.  Secord  that  you*d 
be  discussing  these  aatters  with  the  Independent  counsel 
or  with  us? 

A     No. 

^       Q    Has  he  ever  talked  to  you  about  what  you 
*^   should  or  shouldn't  say  In  connection  with  any  of  these 
22   aatters? 


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A     Mell*  the  only  thing  he's  ever  told  me    was  to 
tel  I  the  truth. 

Q    HoM  about  Mr.  Dutton? 

A     No. 

Q    Hr.  MakiaT 

A     Tell  the  truth. 

0    And  you  are  telling  the  truth  today? 

A    Yet. 

CPausc.) 
Q    Let  ae  aark  as  the  next  exhibit  the  subpoena. 
(The  docuatnt  referred  to 
Mas  aarked  Napier  Deposition 
Exhibit  No.  6  for 
Identif  icatlon.) 
Q     I'll  90  to  this  In  a  aoaent. 

Let  ae  ask  you  about  a  few  aore  people. 
Robert  Lilac*  do  you  know  hiaf 
A    Yes. 
Q    Who  do  you  knoM  hia  to  be? 


^       A    He  Harked  as  a  consultant  for  us  back  in*  I 
^^   believe  it  Mas*  *84  or  *89t  when  mo  were  working  on  the 
^   Marways  project  In  Saudi  Arabia. 


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Q  In  Sauol  Arabia.   Was  HarMopM  related  to 


Secord's  coapany  In  any  way? 

A  No. 

0  Ola  soaebody  froa  that  coapany  share  space 
with  Secord  when  you  f Irst'started  working  there? 

A  Mhen  w«  first  openedt  he  shared  office  spaces 
w  I  th  us • 

Q  And  Mho  was  "he"? 

A  His  naae  was  Alfred  Perry. 

<3  P-e-r-r-y? 

A  Yes. 

0  Do  you  know  where  he  Is  today? 

A  He  has  an  office  In  Leesburg. 

0  And  for  how  long  did  he  share  space*  once  you 
were  there? 

A  Until  April  of  '86. 

Q  And  khtn? 

A  And  then  he  aoved  out  and  opened  an  office  In 
Leesburg. 

Q  Under  the  naae  Marwa^v? 

A  Yet. 

Q  What  business  Is  Harwaia  in? 


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A  St««l  business. 

Q  Oo  you  hnoM  CItnn  Roblnette? 

A  Yes*  I  do* 

Q  Who  da  you  knoM  hia  to  be? 

A  A  security  consultant  for  us. 

0  For  your  coepany? 

A  Stanford  Technology. 

Q  Have  you  seen  hln? 

A  Yest  I  saw  hie  Tuesday*  I  believe. 

Q  Tuesday  of  this  week? 

A  This  week. 

Q  He    was    in    the    office? 

A  Yes. 

Q  And  Mho  was  he  Meeting  with? 

A  He  wanted  to  sect  Mr.  Secord  and  Mr,    Secord 
dldn*t  coae  In  that  day. 

Q  Old  he  leave  any  Message  for  Nr.  Secord? 

A  Just  tc  call  hiM  later. 

Q  He  appeared  unannounced? 

A  No*  he  called  and  said  he  was  going  to  cone  Dy 
and  use  our  copier  and  wait  for  Hr.  Secord  to  coHe  in. 
Mr.  Secord  was  expected  In  around  noon. 


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Q  Hao  yob  (••n  nr ,   Roblnctt*  at  th«  office 
before  this  recent  Tuesday? 

^       A  Yes. 

^       Q  Is  he  a  frequent  wisltort 

'       A  Fairly  frequently. 

Q  Hon  frequently? 

A  Hayb*  once  a  aonth*  once  every  two  ■onths. 

^       Q  NOMt  I  think  you  told  us  that  he  was  a 


^  security  consultant  for  your  coapanyt  correct? 
10       A     Yes. 

''^       Q    Could  you  be  a  little  aore  specific  about  what 

1^  that  aeant? 

13       A     I  «on*t  knoM  what  It  aeant.   That  Mas  the  nay 

^*  1   Mas  told  to  write  the  checks*  to  aake  It  out  to  hU 

1^  and  the  purpose  of  the  check  Mas  for  security 


16 


consu  1 1  Ing . 


17       Q    ^ob  auch  Mere  the  checks  that  you  dreM  to 


18 


hia? 


19       A    They  Mcre  noraally  either  )9*000  or  )6t000. 
*       Q    And  hoM  frequently  did  you  draM  those  checks? 
*•        A    Maybe  every  couple  of  aonths.   I  think  Me've 


22 


on 


ly  aaybe  dene  five  or  six  checks  to  hia. 


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Q     Do  you  knot*  whether  Mr.  Roblnette  ever  did  any 
Mork  for  you  that  Involved  Lieutenant  Colonel  North? 

A     I  con't  knoM. 

Q     Do  you  know  if  he  ever  did  any  work  at 
Lieutenant  Colonel  North's  house? 

A     I  don't  knoM. 

Q     Do  you  knOM  the  naae  Nestor  Sanchez? 

A    No. 

Q    Old  Nr.  Robert  McFarlane  call  the  office  at 
any  tiae  while  you've  been  eaployed  there? 

A    Not  to  ay  knowiedgof  but  I  noraally  don't 
answer  the  phoac* 

G    Do  you  know  if  Mr*  Secord  called  Mr.  HcFar  lane 
on  any  occasions? 

A     I  don't  know. 

Q  Did   he   ever    discuss    Hr.    ricFarlane    with   you? 

A  No. 

Q     Indicate  whether  he  had  any  relationship  with 
hin? 

A     No. 

Q     How  about  Adairal  Polndexter?   Did  he  ever 
call  the  office*  to  your  knowledge? 


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A     Not  to  ay  knowlodga* 

0     Old  Hr.  Socord  ever  ask  you  to  get  M«  on  the 


phone? 

A    No. 


'       Q     E«er  talk  about  hist 

6 


A     No. 

Q     Indicate  he  had  any  relationship  with  hia? 
A     No. 

0    Old  you  knoM  the  naae  Spitz  Channel? 
A    No. 

Q    RIchare  IM  I  ler? 
A     No. 

Q    National  EndoMStnt  for  the  Preservation  of 
Liberty? 

A     No. 

Q    This  Is  a  copy  of  Napier  Exhibit  6*  the 
subpoena  that  mo  served  on  youf  Shirley. 

HR.  BELNICKl   And  I  can  address  this  question 
to  counsel*  If  It's  easier*  Cerry.   Aside  froa  the 
^   rolodex  Me*ve  identified  and  requested  we  be  provided* 
^^   has  Ms.  Napier  looked  through  the  docuaents  described  In 
^   the  subpoena  and  brought  In  today  Mhatever  she's  found* 


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^   but  for  the  roloCex? 

^  MR.  TREANORt   Yes. 

RR.  BELNICKt   So  I  aa  correct*  aa  I  not*  that 
this  Is  the  subpoena  that  was  served*  a  copy  of  It? 

HR.  TREANORt   It  appears  to  be  a  copy  of  Mhat 
I  received* 

MR.  BELNICKt   I  represent  that  It's  what  I 
believe  Is  — 


°  MR.  TREANORt   That's  good  enough  for  ae. 

^^  NR.  BELNICKt   Okay. 

11 


BY  HR.  BALLENt 
Q    Let  ae  clarify  the  record.   Is  It  true  you 
also  received  a  copy  of  the  subpoena  froa  the  House? 
A    Yes*  I  did. 

0    Do  yau  recall  when  that  Mas? 

A     I  think  you  have  It  there.   I  can  get  the  copy 
of  you  Mant  ae  to. 

Q     Just  for  the  record. 

MR.  BALLENt   You've  received  the  House 
subpoena  as  nell  as  the  Senate? 

HR.  TREANORt   I  believe  all  of  the  docuaents 


^   called  for  In  both  the  House  subpoena  and  Senate 


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^  subpoena  have  btan  produced  today*  with  the  exception  of 

^  a  xerox  copy  of  the  rolodext  which  I  believe  Is  the  only 

^  personal  docuaent  In  the  custody  of  Hs.  Napier  at  the 

*  STT6I  office.   And  Me  will  produce  that. 

'  MR.  BALLENt   Thank  you  very  auch. 

*  BY  NR.  BALkENt   (Resuaing) 

^       Q     I'a  going  to  nork  froa  the  back  forward. 

*  A     Okay. 

*  Q    You  testified  a  little  bit  earlier  that  fir. 
''*'  Sacord  ttas  In  Cenava  three  weeks  agol  Is  that  correct? 
''1        A    Approx  laatoly  three  weeks  ago. 

12       Q    Also*  you  believe  Hr.  Hakla  was  there*  too? 
1'       A    Yes, 

14  Q    What  led  you  to  believe  that  nr.  hakla  was 
^*  also  In  Ceneva  at  the  saae  tiae  as  Hr.  Socord? 

15  A  We  placed  calls  to  Hr.  Hakla  and  that  was  the 
^'  country  code*  and  the  hotel  was  a  hotel  In  Geneva  where 
''*  thay  stayed  before. 

IB       Q    Okay.   Mho  asked  you  to  place  the  calls? 

20  A     Hr.  Secord  would  ask  ae  to  call  Albert. 

21  Q     In  Geneva? 

22  A     Ua-haa. 


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''        Q     This  Mas  Mh«n  h«  Mas  still  In  the  Unltad 
^   Statas? 
3        A     Yes. 
*  Q     Virginia? 

'       A     tes. 

^        Q     Old  you  place  any  phone  calls  to  Mr*  Hak in  In 
^   Geneva  at  the  saae  tlae«  three  weeks  ago*  that  Mr* 
^   Secord  Mas  in  Ceneva? 
^       A     I  doii*t  believe  so*  no. 

^°       Q     I*B  a  little  confused.   What  led  you  to 
^^   believe  that  Mr.  Hakia  was  In  Ceneva  three  weeks  ago  at 
^^   the  saae  tiae  Mr.  Secord  was  there? 

^^       A     I  guess  I  was  Just  assuaing  he  was  still  there 
^*      Mhen  Mr.  Secord  went*  since  we  had  talked  to  hi*  there 
^^   before  he  went  on  his  trip. 

^^  Q  HoM  auch  before  Hr.  Secord  went  on  his  trip 
^^  did  you  talk  -- '  did  you  place  the  phone  call  fro*  Hr . 
Secord  to  Hr.  Makia  In  Ceneva? 

A    Probably  a  aatter  of  a  few  days. 
Q    So  It  was  shortly  before?   Would  It  be  fair  to 
say  this  was  shortly  before  Hr.  Secord  left  for  Geneva* 
you  placed  a  call  to  Hr.  Hakla  In  Geneva  to  Mr.  Secord? 


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^         A     Y«s. 

'        0     NoNt  you  ■•ntloned  Hr.  Clenn  Roblnctte*  a 

^   security  consultant  to  the  coapany*   Old  you  avar  cut  a 

*      chack  for  S2«000  for  Hr.  Roblnette? 

^       A    Mr.  Sacord  cut  a  chack  for  $2*000  to  Clann 
Roblnatta. 

'       Q     Uould  you  explain  the  circuastances  of  that? 

A     It  was  a  day  I  nas  not  In  the  offlcet  and  when 
I  want  to  write  out  a  chack  I  saw  In  the  register  that 
he  had  wrltttn  a  check  to  Clenn  Roblnette  In  the  aaount 
of  S2*000.   And  the  reference  was  for  security 


^^  consulting. 

''3        0     Have  you  read  In  the  press  about  a  gate  being 

^*  constructed  at  Hr.  North's  house? 

^'       A    Yes*  I  did. 

18  Q    Oo  yau  recall  whether  or  not  the  check  that 
''^  Mr.  Secord  wrote  was  around  the  tlae  of  the  gate 

^^  construction? 

19  A     It  was. 

20  0    Do  you  know  what  tlae  that  would  be* 

approMlaately? 


21 


22       A     It  saaas  like  It  was  a  couple  of  weeks  ago 


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that  that  happened*  two  or  three  weeks  ago. 
^        0     Approx  iaately? 
3 


A     !*■  not  sure.   The  check  was  written  on  a 
Thursday.   Again*  I'd  have  to  go  back  to  ay  check 
register.   And  that  was  a  couple  of  weeks  ago. 

0     You  also  testified  thatt  on  the  Messages  that 
caae  across  the  coaaun I  cat  ions  device*  that  you  typed 
certain  hard  copy  of  those  aessages? 

A    Yes. 

Q  Would    that    be   correct? 

A  Yes. 

Q     Here  any  of  those  ——   did  you  ever  see  any  of 
those  typed  copies  after  you  had  typed  then? 

A     That  I  had  typed? 

Q     Yes. 

A     I  believe  I  saw  the*  in  Bob  Dutton's  office* 
on  his  desk  or  scacthing*  when  I  would  take  soaething 
in. 

0     Old  there  ever  coae  a  tiae  when  the 
coaaun icat ions  device  got  a  printer  attached  to  It? 

A    Yes*  we  did  get  a  printer. 

Q    And  when  would  that  be? 


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A     I  believe  It  was  last  fuaaer*  the  tuRMer  of 
*86t  Me  got  a  printer* 

Q  Hod  did  that  printer  MorK*  to  the  best  of  your 

knoM  lecse? 

A     It  Mas  attached  to  the  encoding  aachlne  and  I 
think  you  hit  a  button.   When  a  Message  caae  ln«  after 
it  was  finished*  you  could  hit  a  button  for  print  and  it 
printed  out  a  copy* 

Q     Old  you  ever  see  any  of  those  printed  copies? 
A     I  saM  the«*  never  close  enough  to  pick  them  up 
and  read  thee. 

0     And  Mhcre  do  you  think  you  saw  thea? 
A     That  Mas  In  Bob's  office.   He  had  the  printer 
^*       In  his  off  Ice. 

^^  Q  Do  you  know  Mhat  happened  to  either  the  copies 
^^  you  typed  —  do  you  know  what  happened  to  the  copies  you 
■"^   typed? 

^^        A     I  gave  thea  to  either  Bob  or  Mr.  Secordt 
^^   Mhoevcr  had  asked  ae  to  type  it  out. 

20  Q     And  hoM  about  the  copies*  the  printed  copies 

21  froa  the  coaaun I  cat  Ions  device?   What  happened  to 

22  those? 


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A    Bob  Outton  had  thea.   I  don't  know  Mhether  he 
Kept  thea  or  threw  thea  away. 

Q     Aaong  the  docuacnts  that  Mr*  Secord  asked  you 
to  shred  In  Oeceaber  1986«  did  you  notice  any  typed 
coaaun i cat  Ions  docuaents? 

A    No. 

0     You  don't  recall  any? 

A     No.   Nr.  Secord  gave  ae  soee  papers  to  destroy 
'   that  ha  had  In  his  office  or  In  his  briefcase.   He 
produced  thcat  I  don't  know  where  they  caae  froa.   I 
shredded  thea»  but  I  shredded  thea  face-down. 

0     So  you  don't  know? 

A     So  I  have  no  idea  what  they  were. 

Q     Mere  they  white  business  —  what  did  they  look 
like? 

A     They  were  Just  like  white  paper*  like  thatt 
Just  a  stack  probably  about  like  that. 

Q     Could  you  tell  whether  the  writing  went  all 
the  way  down  the  page*  It  was  a  half  a  page? 

A     I  didn't  pay  that  close  attention  to  thea. 

Q     This  would  be  during  the  tiae  period  when  Hr. 
Secordt  in  Oeceaber  of  '86*  when  he  had  asked  you  to 


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^   shred  decuaentst  Mould  that  b*  correct? 

*        A     Ye«. 
3 


Q     Mould  that  be  —  !•■  Just  trying  to  fix  In 
your  Meaory  how  far  Into  Oeceaber  that  occurred*   Would 
that  have  occurred  In  the  first  week  or  the  second  Meek 
or  the  third  weekt  as  best  you  can  recall? 

A     I  hnoM  It  was  before  the  19th  of  Oeceaber*  Is 
all  that  I  can  recall.   I  left  on  Chrlstaas  vacation  the 
19th  of  Oeceaber*  so  It  nas  done  before  that.   I  really 
don't  reaeabtr  whether  It  was  the  first  or  second  or 


third  week. 

^2        a     Here  the  days  --  you  said  It  happened  on  nore 

^^  than  one  day.   Ucre  the  days  one  after  another  or  were 

^*  they  spread  out  over  a  long  period  of  tine? 
15        A     I  think  they  were  spread  out  over  a  period  of 

1^  tiae. 

I^       Q    Qg  you  have  any  recollection  at  all  whether  a 

^^  period  of  tlae  had  passed  In  Deceaber  before  the  first 

1^  date  occurred  that  you  were  asked  to  do  thIsT 

20  A    No. 

21  Q    Are  there  files  kept  of  the  Aaerlcan  Express 

22  records? 


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A     Yes. 

0     Art  those  files  kept  now  currently  at  STTCI 
offices? 

A    hith  the  exception  that  the  Independent 
^   counsel  has  taken  all  of  the*  outt  they  are  kept  there. 

Q    Those  are  docuaents  as  mo  1 1  that  the 
Independent  counsel  has  taken  outf  In  addition  to  the 
other  docuaents  that  you  described? 

A    Yest  yes. 

Q     NoMt  you  aentioned*  If  I  recall  correctly*  at 
one  point  In  tiae  Secord  Associates? 

A    Yes. 

Q    What  Is  Secord  Associates? 

A     That's  another  business  of  Mr.  Secord*s.   I 
don't  know  Mhal  functions  it  perforas.   Ue  pay  hia  his 
salary  as  a  consultant  and  the  checks  are  aade  out  to 
Secord  Associates*  Incorporated. 

Q     And  hOM  auch  is  the  salary  he  gets  paid? 

A     S6«000  a  Month. 
^       Q     Is  he  paid  a  salary  by  STTCI? 
^        A    STTCI  Is  the  one  that  pays  hia  the  S6*000  a 
^   aonthf  and  the  checks  are  aade  out  to  Secord 


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^  Assocl8tei* 

^        Q    Dots  h«  get  another  salary  directly  froi 

^  ST76I? 

4 


5 


6 


A     No. 

Q     As  president  of  that  corporation? 

A     ho. 


0     Is  Secord  Associates  an  incorporated  coapany 


10 


7 

^  as  far  as  you  knoii? 

^  A     I  assuae  It  is*  If  it's  Secord  Associates* 

Incorporated. 

^^  Q     And  do  you  perfora  any  secretarial  duties  or 

^^  other  duties  for  Secord  Associates*  Incorporated? 

13  A     No. 

1^  Q     Does  anyone  to  your  knoMledge? 

1^  A    No*  not  in  our  office. 

16  0     Oo  you  know  of  any  business  that  this  coapany 

1^  conducts? 

18  A     No. 

19  Q    Oo  you  knoM  where  the  Secord  Associates  bank 
^  accounts  are  located*  what  bank? 

21  A     No*  1  Con*t. 

22  Q     How  about  the  STTCI  bank  accounts? 


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A    At  First  Aatrican  Bank  of  Virginia. 
Q    An«  Mhich  branch  Is  It? 


^       A     Vienna. 


Q    NoM*  on  the  days  involving  the  shredding  of 
^   the  docuaentst  Just  so  I  understand  your  testlaony 
^   correctly*  Hr.  Secord  went  through  soae  of  the  actual 
files  and  pulled  doeuacnts  that  he  then  wanted  you  to 
shred? 

A     Yes. 

Q     In  fact*  he  instructed  you  to  shred  theat  is 
that  correct? 

A    Yes. 

(Pause.) 

Q    Now*  do  you  know  the  naae  Erich  von  Rarbod? 

A     I've  heard  it  in  the  press. 

0    Old  you  ever  Know  whether  he  called  the  office 
or  not? 

A    Not  that  I  over  took  a  call  froa  hla. 

Q    How  about  Edwin  Wilson? 


y 


20 


22 


A     No. 

0    Let  ae  ask  about  Theodore  Shackley?   Did  you 
ever  take  any  calls  froa  hia? 


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''        A     I  believe  so. 

^        Q     hai  he  ever  visited  the  office? 

^        A     hot  to  ay  knowiedge* 

*  Q  Old  yoii  eake  any  travel  arrange«ents  for  fir. 
^   Secord  and  yourself  with  BT  Travel? 

*  A     Yes«  I  did. 

^        0     Old  he  ever  use  any  other  conpany  that  you 
^   knoM  of? 

hot  that  I  know  of. 

Old  you  destroy  during  Oeceiiber  any  rolodex 

Yes*  I  did. 

Do  you  recall  any  of  the  rolodex  cards  that 
^*      you  destroyed? 

15        A     Oavid  lialkar*s  cardt  Rafael  Quintero*  and  I 
''^   believe  Ollle  North's  card. 

17  Q     Mho  asked  you  to  destroy  those  cards? 

18  A     Mr.  Secord  asked  m%    to  destroy  David  Walker's 
"•«   card,  and  I  destroyed  Ollle  North's  and  Rafael 

20   Quintero's  because  their  nuabers  were  not  good  any 

2''   aore. 

22        0     Old  «r.  Secord  asked  you  to  destroy  any  other 


9 

A 

10 

0 

11 

cards? 

12 

A 

13 

Q 

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^       cards? 

'  A  I    don't   r*call.      I    don't    think    so.      Thoso   are 

the    three  I    recall    destroying. 

*  HR.   BALLEN;      I    have    no    further    questions* 
(Discussion    off    the    record.) 

*  BY    MR.    HOLMES: 

^       Q  Ms.  Napier*  were  you  ever  employed  as  a 

'   consultant  for  Aaerlcan  National  Manageaent? 
9 


A  No. 

Q  You  never    consulted    for    thea? 

A  No. 

Q    Old  you  ever  receive  any  aoney  froa  that 
corporat Ion? 

A     Yes. 

^^       Q    What  Mere  the  c Ircuastances  of  your  receiving 
^^   that  aoney? 

^^        A     When  I  first  started  working  for  Stanford 
^^   Technology*  Stanford  Technology  Mas  sub-leasing  office 
^^   space  froa  Aaerlcan  National.   And  they  paid  ay  salary 
^   and  then  billed  Stanford  Technology  for  ay  salary  plus 
^^   office  space. 
^       Q    Dio  you  actually  perfora  Mork  for  Aaerlcan 


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National  or  old  you  do  all  the  work  for  Stanford? 

^        A  I  Morkcd  for  Stanford  Technology. 

Q  You  never  Morked  under  the  direction  of  a  nr . 
*       Gadd? 

^        A  Not  1  old  not. 

0  Referrlns  to  your  trip  to  niaHl  on  August  the 
26th«  1<)86«  prior  to  your  trip  you  Matched  rir.  Outton 

Q 

■  ake  a  phone  calK  Is  that  correct? 
^        A     I  cldn*t  Match  him.   He  said  he  was  going  to 

aake  a  phone  call. 
''''        Q     Uhc  did  he  cat  It 

12        A     I  believe  he  called  Qllle  North. 
1^        0     Did  he  tell  you  he  was  going  to  call  OIlie 
"■*   North? 

1S        A     He  didn't  tali  ae  he  was  going  to  call  Ollle. 
^^   But  later  in  conversation  it  Mas  that  he  had  checked 
1^   Mith  Ollle  tc  see  if  It  Mas  okay  if  I  picked  up  the 
1*   aoney. 

19  Q     As  I  recall  your  tettiaony*  there  Mas  another 

20  phone  call  prier? 

21  A     He  Mas  going  to  call  —  the  other  Mas  to 

22  Southern  Air  Transport  to  set  up  who  I  Mouid  aeet  and 


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19 


20 


21 


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Mh«re • 


2 

A  !•■   not    sure   who    tie    talked    to*       The    aan    that    I 


G  I    assuae    he    talked    to   Hr.    Langdon    there? 

3 


4 

■  eet  Ing. 


■et  called  at  later  that  afternoon  and  arranged  the 

S 


8 

A     Yes. 


Q     And  he  told  you  how  to  recognize  hia? 

7 


0  Is  that  hOM  you  knew  what  an  SAT  10  badge 
looked  like  tihen  you  arrived  there? 

1°       A  Yes. 

Q  Had  you  ever  seen  one  before? 

^^       A  No*  1  had  not. 

^^        0  What  did  It  look  like? 
14 


A     It  Mas  a  very  large  badge*  and  It  had  their 
picture  and  it  had  "SAT"  across  the  top. 

0    Old  the  picture  natch  the  face  that  you  were 


'*'   looking  at? 


A    Yes*  it  did. 

Q     You  picked  up  the  package  fro*  this  aan  In  the 
airport  in  Hiaai  and  opened  It  in  the  Monen's  rooa*  is 
that  right? 

A    He  opened  it  in  the  lounge  and  shoned  ae  the 


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■oney. 

0  And  then  you  reopened  it  in  the  Moaen's  roo«7 

A  Yet. 

Q  It  Mas  then  packaged  In  a  Federal  Express 
^   envelope*  is  that  right! 

A  Vet. 

0  Old  you  repackage  It  for  delivery  to  the  White 
House? 

A  Not  I  did  not. 

0  You  delivered  it  In  the  saae  envelope  In  which 
you  got  it? 

A  Yes. 

Q  And  that  was  a  Federal  Express  envelope? 

A  Correct. 

0  It  was  all  in  bills  of  the  size  of  $20  or 
saalier*  Is  that  right? 

A  Yes. 

^B        0  Hon  thick  was  the  stack  of  bills? 

'>9       A  Probably  about  like  that  (  Indicat  ins  >  . 

^       Q  That's  about  an  inch  or  an  inch  and  a  half? 

21  A  Yes. 

22  a  uere    the   bills   new    or   old? 


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^         A  010. 

^       Q  Noil*  you  had  occasion  to  discuss  the  aoveaent 

^  of  ■onty  In  cash  to  Latin  Aatrica  bafora*  hadn't  you? 

*  A  No. 


'  Q  That   had   navar    coaa    up    In   conversations   Mith 


6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


anybody    of    the    people   at    STT6I7 

A  No. 

Q    Old  you  knoM  hOM  they  Mere  paying  for  the  fuel 
for  the  airplanes  In  Latin  Aaerlca? 

A    Not  I  oldn*t. 

Q    Has  there  any  aessage  traffic  In  relation  to 
the  aoveaent  ot  cash  that  you  were  aitare  oft 

A    Are  you  talking  about  on  the  aachlnes* 
aassages? 

0     Yes. 

A    Yes.   They  Mould  ask  for  funds*  they  Mould  — 
I  think  they  Mould  send  a  aessage  as  to  Mhat  their 
expenses  Mere  at  different  tiacst  housing*  telephone* 
and  I  believe  salaries  for  the  aen  that  were  dOMn 
there. 

0    Old  It  appear  to  you  that  Mr.  Cooper  was 
priaarlly  In  charge  of  that? 


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A     Vett  by  what  Bob  Outton  said  about  hia*  I 
believe  he  was  in  charge  of  It. 

0     Oo  you  knoM  whether  Mr.  Outton  had  spoken  with 
Mr.  Cooper  befare  the  August  26th  aoveaent  of  the  cash? 

A     I  don't  believe  he  did.   When  I  said  that  I 
would  go  downt  I  don't  know  whether  he  talked  to  hi*  or 
not.   I  don't  th  Ink  so. 

0     Isn't  It  true  that  Mr.  Cooper  was  In  the 
District  of  Coluabia  about  a  week  before  that? 
A     That  I  don't  know. 
Q    You  don't  recal  I? 
A     No. 

MR.  TREANORt   I'*  not  sure  she  said  that  she 
doesn't  reaeaber. 

MR.  HOLnSt   I  understand. 
'"  HR.  TREANORt   I  understood  that  her  answer  was 

^^   that  she  didn't  know. 

^B  THE  HITNESSt   I  don't  know. 

''*  NR.  holmes;   I  understand. 

^  BY  MR.  HOLHESi   (RatualngI 

^       0     You  said  that  you  spoke  to  your  husband  about 
^   the  aoveaent  ot  cash.   When  did  you  first  speak  to  hia 


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^   about  it? 

^       A     Hhtn  I  talkad  to  ay  lawyart  and  he  had  been 
^   talking  to  the  Independent  counsel  and  they  were  talking 
*      about  possibly  prosecuting  ae  In  connection  with  this 
^   aoney*   And  I  thought  that  I  should  aake  ay  husband 
aitara  of  Mhat  had  happened* 

Q  You  hadn't  aentioned  it  to  hia  at  any  tiae 

prior  to  that? 
A     No. 

Q    And  you  hadn't  aantloned  It  to  anybody  else* 
Is  that  true? 
A    No. 

Q  Old  you  have  any  other  cash  transactions 

besides  the  ones  you've  talked  about? 

A    No*  other  than  the  S16*000  and  the  115*000* 
no. 

Q    You  said  that  you  bought  business  cards. 
Uhere  did  you  buy  thea? 

A     I  believe  it  ^as  froa  ninuteaan  Printers. 
^       Q     Is  that  in  Vienna? 

^  A    No*  It  Mas  over  on  Courthouse  Road.   It 

^   probably  Is  a  Vienna  address.   I  believe  It  was 


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^   ninuteaar* 


0  Is  that  tht  only  place  that  STTCI  bought  such 
things? 

A  Yes»  that's  where  we  have  had  printing  done* 

0  Old  they  also  do  your  stationery? 

A  NOf  our  stationery  Mas  done  In  California, 

a  hher*? 

^       A  I  don't  KnoM.   I  would  have  to  go  back  through 

^   the  bills  to  find  out*   Hr*  Hakls  Made  the  arrangements 
10 


for  STTGl  stationery* 

Q     NoH«  ns*  Napier*  we  have  had  a  discussion 
about  soae  subpoenas  that  you've  already  coaplled  with. 
Are  you  aware  that  the  Senate  has  served  a  subpoena  on 
the  corporation  Itself  recently? 

A     No. 


16  Q     You  Should  be  aware  that  a  subpoena  Is  In 

17  effect  right  now  on  the  corporation  Itself  for  virtually 
^^  all  the  corporate  records*   Vou  understand  that  if  the 
^^  corporate  records  are  not  produced  pursuant  to  that 

^  subpoena  by  the  corporation  that  would  be  conte*pt* 

21  HR*  TREANORt   Uhy  are  you  giving  these 

22  Instructions  to  her? 


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^  THE  HITNESSt   On  my    part7 

nR.  BELNICKt   Excuse  ae*  excuse  ae.   Kip«  are 
Me  finished  ulth  the  questions  now?   I  think  we've 
cowered  the  area* 
^  HR.  MOLHES;   That's  all. 

*  HR.  BEhlCKt   Okay*  thank  you. 

MR.  BELNICKt   Let  ae  Just  aark  one  or  tMO 
other  docuaents*  Shirley*  that  you  brought  with  you. 

THE  WITNESSt   Well*  can  I  have  soaething 
clarified  here?   Aa  I  being  held  in  conteapt  If  the 
coapany  doesn't-- 

HR.  BELNICKt   No.   Let  ae  clarify  that  for  the 
record.   You  are  not  being  held  in  conteapt.   The 
coaaent  Mas  rot  aeant  to  threaten  you  Mith  conteapt  or 
to  suggest  anything  of  the  kind.   I  believe  you  should 
take  It  Just  as  a  coaaent  that*  by  May  of  inforaation* 
the  Senate  has  served  a  subpoena  on  the  corporation. 

You  arc  not  the  corporation. 

THE  HITNESSt   Okay. 

HR.  BELNICKt  You  have  been  very  cooperative 
here  today*  and  there  Mas  no  iaplication  to  the  contrary 
^   in  that  question*  certainly  none  intended  by  the  Senate 


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Com*  I  ttce. 


Okay*  so  plaas*  ralax.   Oon't  taha  anything 


3   froa  It*  okay.   All  right. 


Uould  you  aark  this  as  tha  naxt  axhiblt. 

(Tha  docuaant  rafarrad  to 
was  aarkad  Napier  Oaposltlon 
Exhibit  No.  7  for 
Idant if  Icatlon.) 
^  BY  NR.  BELNICKI   (Rasuaing) 

0    Shirlay*  this  Is  Naplar  Exhibit  7.   Is  this  a 
record  you  brought  with  you  today  of  your  travel  on 
April  2S  and  April  30«  19867 
A     Yes*  It  Is. 

0    Okay.   And  you  produced  that  this  aornlng7 
A     Yes*  I  did. 

MR.  BELNICKt   Would  you  aark  this  next 
docuacnt  as  Napier  Exhibit  8. 

18  (The  oocuaent  referred  to 

19  M8S  aarked  Napier  Deposition 

20  Exhibit  No.  8  for 

21  identification.) 

22  BY  NR.  BELNICKt   (Resuaing) 


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^        Q     NoMf  is  Naplcr  Exhibit  8  a  copy  of  a  travai 


record  you  brought  with  you  this  aorning  of  your  travei 
^   on  Septe*b«r  23«  1S86«  to  Cenava? 
*  A    Yes*  It  is. 

Q     Shirlayt  the  last  question  I  wanted  to  ask 

you*  and  you  aay  have  answered  If  before.   If  you  did* 
^   forgive  aa  for  repeating.   But  In  connection  with  the 
^   transaction  In  August  1986  when  you  delivered  the  cash 

g 

to  the  OEOB*  you  told  us  that  soae  tiae  thereafter  you 

discussed  that  transaction  with  tlr.  Secord*  right? 

"        A    Yes. 
12 


Q     And  I  believe  you  told  us  that  he  expressed 
concern  that  you  were  involved  in  this  or  becaae 
involved  In  that*  correct? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Can  you  recall*  was  he  any  aore  specific 
about*  In  his  words*  as    to  what  he  was  referring  to  when 
he  said*  I *a  sorry  you've  been  Involved*  becoae  involved 
in  "this"?   Oo  you  reaeaber  specifically*  aore 
specifically*  what  he  said? 

A     I  thlnl(  the  concern  he  expressed  on  the  part 
of  Colonel  North  was  that  aaybe  for  security  reasons  he 


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Mas  a  littla  reluctant  to  have  soaaona  alsa  Know  about 
It.   Hr.  Sacord's  concern  was  Just  for  «y  personally 

^   being  Involved  In  It. 

*  Q     And  Involved  In  Mhat? 

'       A     I  don't  knoM*  other  than  picking  up  this 

cash.   He  never  expressed  why*  what  the  whole  scope  of 

7 


8 


9 


the  thing  was  that  I  would  be  —  that  he  would  be 
concerned  about  ay  being  involved. 


fIR.  BELNICKt   Kent  do  you  have  any  Bore 

^^  questions? 

''''  MR.  BALLEN:   Just  one  further  aatter  for 

^^  clarification.   I  think  you  understand  that  here  today 

^^  we're  in  executive  session.   Nothing  that  has  been  taken 

^*  down  In  this  deposition  Is  going  to  be  repeated  to 

^^  anyone  outside  of  this  rooa  other  than  perhaps*  In  the 

^'  case  of  the  House*  to  the  chief  counsel  for  the  House  or 

''^  the  Chalraan  ot  the  Conaittee  or  the  ranking  Republican 

^B  aeaber. 

19  In  addition*  we  would  request  that  you  not 

20  repeat  the  contents  of  this. 

21  THE  WITNESS*   Certainly. 

22  HR.  IREANORt   Hell*  now  wait  a  alnute.   I  will 


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^   advise  her  as  to  nhat  she  can  or  can't  do. 
2  MR.  BALLENi   She  can  do  it. 

NR.  TREANQRl   I  understand  your  request  and 
we'll  consider  your  request*  along  with  any  other 
factors  that  relate  to  our  coaaun icat ins  what  we've 
heard  today. 

HR.  BELNICKt   Speaking  for  the  Senate 
^   Coaalttee*  we'll  only  be  discussing  your  testlaony  with 
those  on  the  staff  of  our  Coaaittee  that  need  to  know. 


Beyond  that*  what  you  should  or  should  not  do  with  your 


testiaonyv  you  should  be  guided*  in  our  view*  solely  by 

12 


your  counse  I  . 

I  want  to  thank  you  for  appearing  here  today 
and  for  giving  us  testlaony. 

Is  there  anything  that  you  want  to  add? 

THE  UITNESSI   I  can't  think  of  anything  I've 
left  out  today. 

HR.  BELNICKt   Mr.  Treanor*  did  you  want  to  ask 
any  questions? 


ALDERSOM  REPORTING  COMPANY.  INC 
20  F  ST.,  M.W..  WASHINGTON,  D.C  20001     (202)  628-9300 


341 


123 


HR.  TREANORt   I  have  no  questions*  thank  yoo. 
HR.  BELNICKt   Thanh  you  for  your  cooperation. 
THE  UlTNESSt   You're  Melccne. 
(Whereupon*  at  3t45  p.a.*  the  taking  of  the 
instant  deposition  ceased.) 


Signature  of  the  witness 
SI6NE0  AND  ShORN  TO  before  ne  this 
day  of «  IS8 . 


1 
2 
3 

4 
5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 

'*  Notary  Pub  I  ic 

^*      My  CoMMission  explresl 

15 

16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


ALOERSON  REPORTING  COMPANY.  INC. 
20  F  ST.,  N.W.,  WASHINGTON.  O.C.  20001     (202)  621-9300 


342 


CERTIFICATE  OF  REPORTER 

I,     JANE  w.  BEACH ,  the  officer 

>fore  whom  the  foregoing  deposition  was  ^.aken,  do  hereby  certify 
that  the  witness  whose  testimony  appears  in  the  foregoing  deposition 

was  duly  sworn  by    ME ;  that  the  testimony  of 

said  witness  was  taken  by  me  to  the  best  of  my  ability  and  thereafter 
reduced  to  typewriting  under  my  direction;  that  said  deposition  is  a 
true  record  of  the  testimony  given  by  said  witness;  that  I  am   neither 
counsel  for,  related  to,  nor  employed  by  any  of  the  parties  to  the 
action  in  which  this  deposition  was  taken,  and  further  that  I  am  not 
a  relative  or  employee  of  amy  attorney  or  counsel  employed  by  the 
parties  thereto,  nor  financially  or  otherwise  interested  in  the 
utcome  of  the  action. 

NOTARY  PUBLIC 
My  commission  expires // ■■  ILI  ~  /  / . 


343 


EOZRAVEL 

8206  LEESBURG  PIKE/SUITE  202/VIENNA,  VA  221 80 


NAPIER /SHIRLEY  A 


STANFORD  TECHNOLOGY  TRADING  GRP 
ATTN SMS  SHIRLEY  NAPIER 
8615  WESTWOOD  CENTER  DR 
VIENNA  VA    22160 


INT 


OATC 

AUG   25    1986 


INVOICE 

9690 


ACCOUNT:    300 


26  AUG  86  -  TUESDAY 
PRESIDENTIAL   831  COACH  CLASS 

LV:  WASH/DULLES         925A  CONFIRMED 

AR:  MIAMI  1155A 

AIRPORT  BOARDING  PASSES  ONLY 

24  HR  EMRGNCY  NMR  800-645-9360/NY  STATE  800-732-9639 
♦♦♦THANKYOU  FOR  BOOKING  BT  TRAVEL. 
CHANGES  COULD  RESULT  IN  HIGHER  FARE 

COMPARED  TO  THE  FULL  FARE  THIS  REPRESENTS  A  SAVINGS  OF  ♦   301.00 

7652493566   CARD  99.00 


TICKET  NUMBER/S* 
NAPIER/SHIRLEY  A 


AIR  TRANSPORTATION 


91.67   TAX  7.33   TTL 

SUB  TOTAL 

CREDIT  CARD  PAYMENT 
AMOUNT  DUE 


99 ,  00 

99.00 

99.00- 

.00 


703-790-0460 


344 


BT-ffiAVEL 

8206  LEESBURG  PIKE;SUITE  202/VIENNA.  VA  22 1  80 
STANFORD    TECHNOLOGY    TRADING   GRP    INT 
ATTN: MS    SHIRLEY    NAPIER 
6615   WESTWOOD   CENTER   DR 
VIENNA    VA         22180 


NAPIER/SHIRLEY    A 


DATE  WVOCE 

AUG  25  1986         9691 


26  AUG  86  -  TUESDAY 
UNITED         888  SPCL  CLASS 
LV«  MIAMI  129P 

AR:  WASH /DULLES        354P 


ACCOUNT:  300 


57 


CONFIRMED 


SEAT-  4C 


24  HR  EMRGNCY  NMR  800-645-9860/NY  STATE  800-732-'9639 
♦♦♦THANKYOU  FOR  BOOKING  BT  TRAVEL. 
CHANGES  COULD  RESULT  IN  HIGHER  FARE 

COMPARED  TO  THE  FULL  FARE  THIS  REPRESENTS  A  SAVINGS  OF  ♦   300.00 

TICKET  NUMBER/Si 
NAPIER/SHIRLEY  A  7652493567   CARD  100.00 


AIR  TRANSPORTATION 


92.60 


TAX          7. 40   TTL 

100.00 

SUB  TOTAL 

100.00 

CREDIT  CARD  PAYMENT 

100.00 

AMOUNT  DUE 

.00 

703-790-0460 


CUSTOMER    ITINERARY 


345 


^/^  I  ^^ — Firs!  Arrfc  i,--.-  r.'nni..  f.'...—.  t  '■  vfif-'i   :,;  £-,  n.,'.! 


I 


n 


PK  7OJ.3S6-4«01 


Mar.    26,       ,„86        ».-._„ 


PAT  TO  TMI     (-"aeVl 

otoe«  r..     i-asn 


— Ir  V,  '.:  .,i — 

Eiqht  tbQMs^nd— {"lyinRiTYTggg" 


tki^NMBicAiro.p 


fl.w. 


J    8,000.00 

^n  O  L  I  A  «  S 


LiJpstooi,  2i,^i:_ ji50i.q_EiOaii"  o  rei 


^f^€^ 


(^ j:o_5j.aoi,ai,;i:  g.Bouqe.oaN'  oioi  /oooo70oooo.'*^. 


346 


^ 


j:x 


,(^ 


^ 


347 


Cash  Transactions: 


$15,000.00 
3/26/86 


Cashed  two  checks  (#101  $7,000.00/#102  $8,000.00)  for 
Albert  Hakim  from  his  personal  account  at  First  American 
Bank. 


$16,000.00 
8/26/86 


He  was  waiting  for  a  $15,000.00  wire  transfer  to  his 
personal  account  when  it  came  (he  had  me  call  the  bank 
and  check  to  see  if  it  had  been  credited  to  his  account 
so  he  could  wirte  checks  on  it)  he  had  me  type  the  checks 
he  signed  them  and  then  he  asked  me  to  cash  them  at 
seperate  banks.   I  cashed  one  at  the  Vienna  branch  and 
the  other  at  the  Tysons  Corner  branch.   I  expressed  some 
concern  to  Mr.  Hakim  about  cashing  them  and  he  said  I 
didn't  have  anything  to  worry  about  unless  they  were  over 
$10,000.00.   I  cashed  them  and  gave  Albert  Hakim  the 
money.   He  left  that  night  or  the  next  morning  on  a  trip. 
I  don't  remember  where  he  was  going — Geneva  or  maybe  London. 
Tom  Clines  and  Rafael  Quintero  were  in  the  office  the  day 
I  cashed  the  checks.   I  don't  remember  where  the  wire 
tramsfer  came  from  -  I  assume  Switzerland. 


8/25/86  Bob  Dutton  was  trying  to  get  in  touch  with  Bill 
Cooper  (BC  was  coming  to  DC)  to  have  him  go  to  Micimi 
and  pick  up  documents.   Bob  was  leaving  on  a  trip  that 
night  and  was  having  a  problem  getting  in  touch  with 
Cooper.  •  RVS  was  traveling  and  I  had  very  little  to  do 
so  I  said  I  would  go  to  Miami  and  pick  up  the  documents. 
Bob  said  he  would  have  to  make  a  call.   He  did  and  came 
back  and  said  it  was  okay  if  I  went.   He  got  on  the  phone 
again  to  arrange  the  pick  up  and  I  made  my  reservations . 
At  this  point  he  told  me  I  would  be  picking  up  $16,000.00 
from  an  SAT  representative  possibly  Bill  Langton  but 
they  would  call  and  coordinate  with  me.   Later  in  the  day 
the  man  from  SAT  called  smd  told  me  how  to  recognize  him 
and  arranged  where  we  would  meet.   I  don't  remember  his 
name  but  I  believe  he  is  the  comptroller  for  SAT,  he 
hadn't  been  with  them  for  very  long.   On  the  26th  I  flew 
to  Miami,  met  the  man  -  we  went  into  a  lounge,  he  gave  me 
a  Federal  Express  envelope,  he  opened  it  and  showed  me 
the  money.   The  lounge  was  very  crowded  and  I  didn't  want 
take  the  money  out  and  count  it.   He  vouched  for  the 
amount  and  I  signed  a  receipt.   We  were  in  the  lounge 
maybe  20-25  minutes.   We  left  the  lounge  and  I  went  into 
the  ladies  room  and  counted  the  money  -  $16,000.00  in 
small  bills  -  I  don't  remember  if  there  was  anything 
higher  than  a  $20  bill.   I  came  back  to  Dulles  and  took 
the  money  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Bldg.   I  called 
Fawm  Hall  and  told  her  I  was  downstairs  and  had  an 
envelope  Ollie  was  waiting  for.   She  came  down,  took  tne 
envelope,  we  exchanged  a  few  words  and  I  left. 


348 


Travel : 


March  13-16,  1986:   London 

Accompanied  Mr.  Secord  to  attend  a  meeting  with 
a  Mr.  Khalid  Rasheed  concerning  a  consulting 
agreement  between  the  two.   I  was  there  to  take 
notes  and  draft  the  agreement.   No  definite 
agreement  was  agreed  upon,  I  never  wrote  up 
anything.   Mr.  Secord  and  Mr.  Rasheed  met 
together  privately.   I  don't  know  what  they 
discussed  at  these  meetings. 

Mr.  Secord  also  met  privately  with  David  Walker. 

April  29-30,  1986:   Miami 

Met  with  a  representative  of  the  Jamaican  govt, 
concerning  radios.   Present  at  this  meeting  was 
Mr.  Secord,  Mr.  Olmstead  and  myself.   Mr.  Secord 
asked  me  to  listen  carefully  but  not  take  notes 
and  write  it  up  after  the  meeting.   I  was  in  this 
meeting  for  approximately  20-25  minutes.   Two  men 
arrived  (ecurlier  I  was  told  they  would  be  coming 
that  they  were  with  Motorola)  and  Mr.  Secord  asked 
me  to  leave  and  return  to  Washington. 

August  26,  1986:     Miami 

Met  with  a  man  from  Southern  Air  Transport  and 
he  gave  me  $16,000.00  in  cash.   I  was  in  the 
Miami  Airport  about  an  hour,  return  to  Dulles, 
drove  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Bldg.  and  gave 
the  money  to  Fawn  Hall. 

Sept  23-26,  1986:    Geneva 

Met  Mr.  Secord  to  deliver  STTGI  stationery  and 
brochures  he  forgot  to  take  with  him. 


^^A/a1Um^    ^.  Jltf^ot../.^^ 


^//0/^V 


349 


V'^ 


UNITED  STATES  OF  AMERICA 

Congxtii  of  tije  Winittti  i^tatti 


To 


Shirley  Napier 


3340  Mansfield  Rd. 


Falls  Church,    VA ^^^^^^. 


$OrS(aant  to  lawful  authority,   YOU  ARE  HEREBY  COMMANDED   to 

tar  before  the    SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON  £ 
0'   IRAN    AND    THE    NICARAGUAN   OP  POST  ION 


appear  before  the    SELECT   COMMITTEE    ON    SECRET   MILITARY   ASSISTANCE 

to       ~  


\of  the 

Seriate  of  the  United  State;  on MiacfiiLJLQ .  W_a2, 

at 9:  30 o'clock    a.  m.,  at  their  committee  room  -Hart  Senate — 

Office  Buildinqf    9th  Floor ,  tJien  and  there 

to  testify  what  you  may  know  relative  to  the  subject  matters  under  con- 
sideration by  said  committee. 
Pursuant  to  Committee  Rule   6.  ■■■t.hla_aubBoena  directSL-aapearanCja— 

at   the   deposition   whose   notice   acrnrnpanies    it. Y.dii   miist.  hrinq 

with   vou   the   materials    listed    in    ftH-arhmftnt  A. — _ 


Jj^eml  faa  not.  as  you  wiU  answer  your  default  under  the  pains  and  pen- 
alties in  such  eases  mad«  and  provided. 

T^      apY  Select  Committee   staff  member  nr  U.S.    Mfirshal 

to  serve  and  return. 

6ibeii  under  my  hand,  by  order  of  the  committee,  this 

25     ^—.  Qf     March  __^  in  the  year  of  our 

Lord  one  thouetm  nine  hundredthndxSi.'Shtl^s^liSn 


vice  Chairman 
Warren  Rudman 


350 


UNITED  STATES  OF  AMERICA 
(Eangresfi  of  ttye  Hniteb  ^tatzs 


Notice  of 
Senate  Deposition 


Yq  Shirley  Napier 


_    ttrtrting: 


PUaae  take  nonce  that  at     9^30         o'clock  A^_m.,  on    March   30 

19   87  at  Hart  Senate  Office  Building,  9th  Floor 

of  the  staff  of  the  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan 
Opposition  of  the  Senate  of  the  United  States,  will  take  your  deposition  on  oral  examination 
concerning  what  you  may  know  relative  to  the  subject  matters  under  consideration  by  said 
Select  Committee.  The  deposition  will  be  taken  before  a  notary  public,  or  before  some  other 
officer  authorized  by  local  law  to  administer  oaths;  it  will  be  taken  pursuant  to  the  Select 
Committee's  rules,  a  copy  of  which  are  attached. 


(iiOtU  under  my  hand,  by  authority  vested  in  me  by 
the  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military 
Assistance  to  Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan 
Opposition  on      March    2  5  iggj 


351 


ATTACHMENT  A 
Shirley  Napier 


The  respondent  shall  produce: 

1.   With  regard  to  any  activity  undertaken  by  any  corporation  or 
partnership  or  association  in  which  you  have  been  an  officer, 
director,  partner  or  employee,  all  materials  relating  to: 

a.  the  payment  of  and  service  provided  of  any  employee  or 
provider  of  any  personal  service,  including  consultants, 
advisors,  accountants,  bookkeepers,  shippers,  warehousers, 
travel  agents,  freight  forwarders,  attorneys,  and  tax  preparers, 
including  any  list  of  such  persons'  names,  addresses  or  phone 
numbers. 

b.  the  provision  of  any  communication  services,  including  but 
not  limited  to  telephone,  long  distance  phone,  mobile  phone, 
pager,  telex,  or  expedited  mail  services. 

c.  the  incorporation,  designation  of  officers  or  directors, 
stock  issuance,  stock  transfers,  capitalization,  financing, 
or  corporate  acts  of  any  corporation,  its  parent,  affiliated 
corporation  or  subsidiaries,  if  any,  foreign  or  domestic 
including  any  and  all  corporate  resolutions. 

d.  tax  records  of  any  kind  including  income  tax  returns  and 
supporting  documents,  filed  with  any  department  or  agency  of 
the  United  States,  any  State,  or  a  foreign  government. 

e.  accounting  records  showing  the  profitability,  net  worth, 
assets  or  liabilities. 

f.  the  provision  of  any  financial  services,  including  but 

not  limited  to  banking,  pension,  investment,  lending,  brokering, 
financing,  bookkeeping,  accounting  or  financial  advising 
services,  wherever  located. 

g.  the  receipt,  transfer  or  transportation  of  currency  or 
any  cash  equivalent  of  a  value  of  more  than  $1,000. 

h.   any  contract,  agreement,  or  consultant  arrangement  involving, 
or  any  compensation  from,  any  department  division  or  agency  of 
the  United  States,  any  State  or  political  subdivision  thereof, 
or  any  foreign  government  or  subdivision  thereof,  whether 
executed  or  not,  including  those  in  which  involvement  was 
limited  to  consulting,  advising,  or  discussing  such  event. 


352 


Page  Two 


i.   or  consisting  of  appointment  books,  phone  or  other 
comnunication  messages,  phone  number  compilations  or 
Lists,  diaries,  calendars  or  contemporaneous  records  of 
daily  activity  such  as  time  billings. 

j.   the  acquisition  by  any  person,  transfer  or  transportation, 
whether  by  purchase,  sale,  lease,  consianment  or  shipment, 
of: 

1.  any  weapon  or  ammunition  of  any  kind 

2.  any  supply  suitable  for  use  in  combat 

3.  any  air,  sea  or  ground  transportation  vehicle  or 
vessel 

including  but  not  limited  to  materials  relating  to  the  sources 
and  disposition  of  all  financing  and  payments  for  such  items. 

k.   travel  within,  to  or  from  Iran,  Israel,  Switzerland, 
Panama,  Bermuda,  Liberia,  Lichtenstein,  Hong  Kong,  the  Cayman 
Islands,  Portugal,  Denmark,  Saudi  Arabia,  El  Salvador,  Costa 
Rica,  Nicaragua,  Honduras  or  Guatemala,  by  any  officer,  dire&tor, 
agent,  employee,  or  provider  or  any  personal  services,  including 
but  not  limited  to  consultants,  advisors,  or  contractors. 

1.   any  communication  with  any  person  or  entity  in  any  of  the 
countries  in  (k)  above,  whether  in  writing,  telecommunication, 
radio  or  otherwise,  by  any  officer,  director,  agent,  employee 
or  provider  of  any  personal  service. 

m.   the  purchase,  sale,  provision,  transfer  or  transportation 
of  any  goods  or  services  within,  to  or  by  any  oerson  or  entity 
in  any  of  the  countries  in  (k)  above. 

2.  With  regard  to  any  activity  undertaken  personally  or  as  a 
consultant,  independent  contractor  or  in  any  other  capacity,  all 
materials  required  in  (1)  above. 

3.  All  materials  relating  to  any  of  the  individuals  or  entities  in 
Appendix  A  hereto. 

4.  All  materials  relating  to  any  American  citizen  held  hostage. 

5.  All  materials  relating  to  forces  opposing  the  government  of 
Nicaragua,  including  financial,  military  or  other  assistance  to 
such  forces,  whether  in  Nicaragua  or  elsewhere. 

The  term  "materials"  in  this  subpoena  includes  any  book,  check, 
cancelled  check,  correspondence,  communiciation,  document,  financial 
record,  recording  tape,  or  any  other  item  which  you  own  or  in 


353 


Paqe  Three 


any  way  have  in  your  custody  or  under  -our  control  or  that  of 

any  agent  of  yours,  iated,  created  on,  or  relating  to  any  date  since 

January  1,  1982. 

"or  any  questions  reqarding  this  subooena,  contact  Mark  Belnick 
at  (202)  224-9960. 


354 


APPENDIX  A 


Any  of  the  following  persons: 

Bermudez ,  Enrique 
Calero,  Adolf o 
Calero,  Mario 
Cameron,  Bruce 
Conrad,  Daniel  L. 
Cheunorro,  Pedro 
Cooper,  William  J. 
Clines ,  Thomas 
Cruz ,  Arturo 
Cruz,  Arturo,  Jr. 
de  Senarclens,  Jean 
Dutton,  Robert 
Fischer,  David 
Furmark,  Roy 
Gadd,  Richard 
Garnel,  Jose 
Ghorbanifar,  Manucher 
Gomez,  Francis 
Hakim,  Albert 
Hashemi ,  Cyrus 
Hull,  John 
Kashoggi ,  Adnan 
Kimche ,  David 
Ledeen,  Michael 
Lilac,  Robert 


Lilac,  Robert 

McMahon,  Steve 

McFarlane,  Robert 

F.  Andy  Messing,  Jr. 

Montes,  Oscar 

Nimrodi ,  Yaacov 

Nir,  Amiram 

North,  Oliver  L. 

Poindexter,  John 

Quintero,  Rafael 

Robelo,  Alfonso 

Robles,  Rodolfo 

Rodriguez ,  Felix  aka  Max  Gomez 

Rose,  Jose  Bueso 

Sacasa,  Marrio 

Sanchez,  Aristides 

Schwimmer,  Adolph  (Al) 

Secord,  Richard  V. 

Shackley,  Theodore 

Singlaub,  John  L. 

Soghanalian,  Sarkis 

Sommeriba,  Leonardo 

Wilson,  Edwin 

von  Marbod,  Erich. 

Zucker,  Willard  I. 


Any  person  employed  by,  acting  as  an  agent  for,  or 
representing: 

U.  S.  Air  Force 

Military  Airlift  Command 

Central  Intelligence  Agency 

National  Security  Council 

President's  Intelligence  Oversight  Board 

Federal  Aviation  Administration 

Geneva  Commercial  Registry 

Military  Reutilization  and  Material  Supply  Department, 
Portugal 

National  Armaments  Directorate,  Portugal 

Nugen-Hand  Bank,  Australia 

Overseas  Defense  Corp. 

Department  of  Defense 

Lloyd's  of  London 

any  agency,  division,  or  department  of  the  United  States 
government  with  responsibility  for  foreign  relations, 
for  intelligence  activities,  or  for  manufacturing, 
storing,  shipping,  selling,  transferring,  monitoring, 
or  accounting  for  any  arms,  munitions,  or  military 
personnel 

any  agency,  division,  or  department  of  the  government  of. 


355 


any  instrumentality  of,  or  any  national  of,  or  person 
located  in  Iran,  Israel,  Switzerland,  Panama,  Bermuda, 
Liberia,  Lichtenstein,  the  Cayman  Islands,  Portugal, 
Denmark,  Saudi  Arabia,  El  Salvador,  Costa  Rica, 
Nicaragua,  Honduras,  or  Guatemala 

Any  of  the  following  entities,  or  any  entity  whose  name  is 
as  listed,  but  followed  by  Inc.,  Corp.,  Corporation,  Ltd., 
Co.,  Company,  or  SA. ,  doing  business  in  any  location 
whatever: 

ACE 

Airmach,  Inc. 

Albon  Values 

Alpha  Serivces,  S.A. 

Amalgamated  Commercial  Enterprises,  Inc. 

American  Marketing  and  Consulting,  Inc. 

American  National  Management  Corporation 

Baggett  Transportation  Company 

CSF 

CSF  Investments  Ltd. 

CSFR  Inv.  Ltd. 

Chester  Co. 

Compagnie  de  Services  Fiduciares  SA 

Corporate  Air  Services,  Inc. 

Dataguard  International 

Defex  -  Portugal 

Dolmy  Business,  Inc. 

EAST  Inc. 

EATSCO 

Eagle  Aviation  Services  and  Transportation 

Egyptian  American  Transport  Services,  Inc. 

Energy  Resources  International 

Fifteenth  of  September  League 

Gulf  Marketing  Consultants 

Hyde  Park  Holdings 

Hyde  Park  Square  Corporation 

I.  B.  C. 

IDEA 

Intercontinental  Technology 

International  Research  and  Trade 

Kisan 

Lake  Resources  Corp. 

Lake  Resources,  Inc. 

Lilac  Associates 

Maule  Air,  Inc. 

Missurasata 

NRAF  Inc. 

National  Defense  Council  Foundation 

National  Liberation  Army 

N.  S.  I. 

Nicaraguan  Democratic  Force  (FDN) 

Nicaraguan  Democratic  Union 

Nicaraguan  Development  Council 


356 


Nicaraguan  Freedom  Fund,  Inc. 

Nicaraguan  Revolutionary  Armed  Forces  (FARM) 

Project  Democracy 

Queen  Shipping 

R.  M.  Equipment  Co. 

Revolutionary  Democratic  Alliance  (ARDE) 

S  &  S  Trading  Corp. 

SOME  Aviation 

Secord  Associates 

Southern  Air  Transport,  Inc. 

Southern  Bloc  Opposition  (BOS) 

Stanford  Technology,  Inc. 

Stanford  Technology  Trading,  Inc 

Stanford  Technology  Trading  Associates,  Inc. 

Systems  Services  International 

Trans  World  Arms  Inc. 

Udall  Corporation 

Udall  Research  Corporation 

Udall  Resources,  Inc.,  S.A. 

United  Nicaraguan  Opposition  (UNO) 


357 


OTTRAVEL 

8206  LEESBURG  PIKE/SUII£.2fl2iy'ENNA.  VA  22180 
STANFORD    TECHNOLOGY    TRADING   GRP    INT  " 
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EASTERN       197  SPCL  CLASS 
LV:  WASH/NATIONAL      507P 
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TICKET  NUMBER/S« 
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119.44   TAX  9.56   TTL 

SUB  TOTAL 

CREDIT  CARD  PAYMENT 
AMOUNT  DUE 


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129.00 
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703  7900460 


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8206  LEESBURG  PtKE/SUITE  202/VIENNA.  VA  22 1 80 


STANFORB  TECHNOLOGY  TRAOINO  ORP  INT 
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7632493857 


CARD 


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SUB  TOTAL 

CREDIT  CARD  PAYMENT 
AMOUNT  DUE 


2064.00 


2064.00 
2064.00 
2064.00- 
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CUSTOMER  ITINERARY 


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UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION  OF  BARBARA  NEWINGTON 

Washington,  D.  C. 
Tuesday,  May  12,  1987 

Deposition  of  BARBARA  NEWINGTON,  called  for  examination! 

pursuant  to  notice  of  deposition,  at  the  offices  of  the 

Senate  Select  Committee,  Suite  901,  Hart  Senate  Office 

Building,  at  10:02  a.m.  before  KAREN  ILSEMANN,  a  Notary 

Public  within  and  for  the  District  of  Columbia,  when  were 

present : 

W.  THOMAS  McGOUGH,  JR.,  ESQ. 

Associate  Counsel 

United  State  Senate  Select 

Committee  on  Secret  Military 

Assistance  to  Iran  and  the 

Nicaraguan  Opposition 

THOMAS  FRYMAN,  ESQ. 
KENNETH  BUCK,  ESQ. 
Staff  Counsel 
United  States  House  of 

Representatives  Select 

Committee  to  Investigate 

Covert  Arms  Transactions 

With  Iran 


'Ar 


proiriiions  of  LO.  12336 
Hriu>,  National  Security  Council 


UNCLASSIFIED 


--   continued 


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1      APPEARANCES  (Continued) 
2 


RICHARD  A.  MORGAN,  ESQ. 
JOHN  B.  REARDEN,  JR.,  ESQ. 
Winthrop,  Stimson,  Putnam 
&  Roberts 

4  460  Summer  Street 
Stamford,  Connecticut   06901 

5  On  behalf  of  the  Deponent. 


ALSO  PRESENT: 


VICTOR  ZANGLA 
Associate  Staff  Member 

8  United  States  House  of 
Representatives  Select 

9  Committee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions 
With  Iran 


UNCLASSIRED 


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C  0  N  T  E  N  T  S 


Barbara  Newington 

by  Mr.  McGough 

by  Mr.  Horgan 

by  Mr.  Fryman 

by  Mr.  McGough 


NUMBER 
Exhibit  1 
Exhibit  2 
Exhibit  3 
Exhibit  4 
Exhibit  5 
Exhibit  6 
Exhibit  7 
Exhibit  8 
Exhibits  9  and  10 


EXHIBITS 


UNCUSSIRED 


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EXAMI NATION 


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unde 
byO. 


.Sir  o 


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PROCEEDINGS 

MR.  HORGAN:   For  the  record,  Mrs.  Barbara 
Newington  is  appearing  here  today  pursuant  to  the  House 
Select  Committee's  subpoena  dated  February  24,  1987  and 
Judge  Robinson's  immunity  order  No.  87-0158  dated  May  4, 
1987,  and  pursuant  to  Senate  Select  Committee  dated 
March  23,  1987  and  Judge  Robinson's  immunity  order 
No.  87-163  dated  May  5,  1987. 

You  may  proceed . 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Thank  you. 

Mrs.  Newington,  good  morning.   My  name  is  Tom 
McGough.   We  are  going  to  swear  you  in  a  moment,  but  first 
let  me  explain  who  we  are  sitting  here  at  the  table. 

As  you  know,  there  is  a  joint  investigation  being 
conducted  by  a  Senate  Select  Committee  and  a  House  Select 
Committee.   I  am  Associate  Counsel  with  the  Senate  Select 
Committee. 

Seated  to  my  right  is  Mr.  Thomas  Fryman,  Mr.  Vic 
Zangla,  and  Mr.  Ken  Buck,  all  of  whom  are  in  various 
capacities  with  the  House  Select  Committee.   We  are  taking 
the  deposition  jointly  to  spare  you  making  another  trip  to 
Washington,  as  has  been  our  practice  so  far. 


provisions  cf  LO.  I^Sj 
National  Security  Council 


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I  will  be  asking  most  of  the  questions.   If  at  any 
point  you  have  any  questions  or  don't  understand  a  question 
that  I  direct  to  you,  just  stop  me  and  I  will  be  glad  to  try 
to  clarify  it  for  you. 

Your  counsel  has  provided  to  us  the  records  I  have 
here,  pursuant  to  the  subpoena.   If  you  feel  there  is  a 
record  or  something  that  might  refresh  your  recollection, 
feel  free  to  ask  me  and  we'll  try  to  dig  it  out  and  let  you 
take  a  look  at  it. 

With  that  in  mind,  why  don't  we  swear  the  witness 
and  go  from  there? 
Whereupon, 

BARBARA  NEWINGTON 
was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  first  been  duly  sworn  by 
the  notary  public,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 
EXAMINATION 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    Mrs.  Newington,  let  me  start  by  asking  you  just 
some' general  background  questions. 

What  is  your  present  home  address? 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 G  r  e  e  n  w  i  c  h , 
0    And  how  long  have  you  resided  at  that  address? 


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uNtmsm 

A  Thirty-three  or   four  years. 


0  Do  you   have   an   office   address   or   any   other 

principal    residence? 

A  No. 

0    Are  you  employed  in  any  remunerative  capacity  at 
this  point? 

A    No. 

0    I  understand  that  you  are  a  widow. 

A    Yes . 

0    What  was  your  husband's  name? 

A    John  Newington. 

0    When  did  he  pass  away? 

A    In  1979. 

0    I  believe  counsel  has  produced  copies  for  us, 
copies  of  tax  returns  for  1984  and  1985  that  reflect  a  scial 
security  number  of 

Is  that,  as  best  you  recollect,  your  social 
security  number? 

A    That's  correct. 

0    We  are  here  to  discuss  contributions  that  were 
made  to  various  organizations  affiliated  with  a  man  named 
Carl  "Spitz"  Channell  and  certain  other  people  that  worked 


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with  or  about  him. 

Let  me  go  about  back  a  little  bit,  however,  and 
ask  you  initially  about  an  organization  called  Western  Goals 
and  how  you  first  became  affiliated  or  aware  of  that 
organization.   So  let's  start  at  the  beginning  of  your 
connection  with  Western  Goals. 

A    This  was  about  1978  when  it  was  formed.   My 
husband  formed  it  with  Congressman  Lawrence  MacDonald. 
That's  when  it  began. 

0    At  the  time  it  was  formed,  did  your  husband  have 
any  official  capacity  or  title  with  Western  Goals? 
A    No 

0    Did  there  come  a  time  when  you  took  on  an  official 
capacity? 

A    Only  as  a  member  of  the  Advisory  Board. 
0    When  did  you  become  a  member  of  the  Advisory 
Board? 

A    In  1979. 

0    Are  you  still  affiliated  or  on  the  Advisory  Board 
of  Western  Goals? 
A    No. 
0    When  did  you  step  down  or  sever  your  connection 


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1  with  that  organization? 

2  A    When  the  Congressman  died  in  the  air  crash, 

3  Western  Goals  just  fell  apart,  so  that  I  was  supporting  it 

4  for  a  couple  of  years  just  to  keep  it  going.   And  then  when 

5  Mr.  Channell  came  into  the  picture,  he  showed  interest  in 

6  taking  it  over  as  we  were  looking  for  a  leader  to  carry  it 

7  on,  and  so  he  took  it  over  in  about  1985. 

8  0    Did  you  continue  your  affiliation  with  Western 

9  Goals  after  Mr.  Channell  took  it  over? 

10  A    Just  for  about  a  year;  yes. 

11  0    So  I'm  just  trying  to  count  a  year  ahead.   Can  we 

12  say  that  you  severed  ties  or  moved  away  from  Western  Goals 

13  sometime  in  1986? 

14  A    Yes. 

15  0    What  did  you  understand  the  purpose  of  Western 

16  Goals  to  be? 

17  "    A    It  was  to  promote  and  further  the  principles  of 

18  democracy  and  to  strengthen  and  to  rebuild  these  principles 

19  so  that  totalitarianism  would  be  impossible  in  this 

20  country. 

21  0    Am  I  correct  in  saying  that  Western  Goals  was  a 

22  tax-exempt  organization? 


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A    That's  correct. 

0    Can  you  give  me  an  example  of  some  of  the  projects 
that  Western  Goals  did  in  the  course  of  its  existence? 

A    It  published  pamphlets  on  the  subject  of  the 
Constitution  and  documentaries  on  togrriaw.   Anything  that 
would  get  it  before  the  public's  eye,  media  and  so  forth. 

0    Can  you  give  me  an  estimate  of  what  Western  Goals' 
annual  budget  was? 

A    It  was  probably  around  $90,000  a  year. 

0    Did  you  support  Western  Goals  financially? 

A    Yes.   Not  solely,  but  a  substantial  contributor; 
yes . 

Q    Did  you  continue  that  financial  support  after 
Mr.  Channell  took  over  Western  Goals? 

A    In  a  very  minor  way. 

0    Can  you  tell  me  when  you  first  met  Mr.  Channell? 

A    Around  February  of  1985. 

0    And  in  what  context  did  you  meet  him? 

A    I  had  been  familiar  with  his  organization  and  he 
had  heard  of  me,  I  guess,  through  Western  Goals  and  asked  me 
to  have  an  appointment  to  meet  him  in  New  York  City. 

Q    Had  he  at  that  time  assumed  control  of  Western 


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1   ti       1  Goals? 

2  A    No. 

3  0    You  said  that  you  had  been  familiar  with  his 

4  organization. 

5  Which  organization  did  you  associate  him  with? 

6  A    The  American  Conservative  Trust. 

7  0    How  did  you  become  familiar  with  American 

8  Conservative  Trust? 

9  A    Former  years,  during  the  time  my  husband  was 

10  alive,  we  contributed  to  congressional  races,  conservative 

11  congressional  races  through  their  organization. 

12  0    So  you  had  made  contributions  to  ACT  before  you 

13  had  personally  met  Mr.  Channell? 

14  A    Yes. 

15  Q    VJho  requested  the  meeting  with  Mr.  Channell 

16  initially?  Did  he  suggest  it  to  you,  or  did  you  suggest  it 

17  to  him? 

18  A    He  arranged  it.   He  called  me  and  made  the  date. 

19  0    And  did  you  in  fact  meet  with  him? 

20  A     Yes. 

21  Q    And  where  did  that  meeting  take  place? 

22  A    At  the  Plaza  in  New  York  City. 


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1  0    As  you  recollect,  that  was  in  February  of  1985? 

2  A    That's  correct. 

3  0    Was  anyone  else  with  Mr.  Channell  at  that  time  at 

4  that  meeting? 

5  A     (Nods  in  the  negative.) 

6  Q    I  guess  you  answered  no  to  that  answer. 

7  If  you  can  recall  at  that  first  meeting,  did 

8  Mr.  Channell  describe  to  you  the  organizations  with  which  he 

9  was  then  affiliated? 

10  A    No. 

11  0    What  did  you  discuss  at  that  meeting? 

12  A    More  about  Congressman  MacDonald  and  his  books  and 

13  so  forth,  and  what  his  organizations  were  trying  to 

14  accomplish. 

15  Q    By  his  organizations,  do  you  mean  Congressman 

16  MacDonald's  organizations? 

17  A    Yes. 

18  0    Did  you  talk  about  Western  Goals? 

19  A    Yes. 

20  0    Did  you  discuss  with  Mr.  Channell  the  prospect  of 

21  his  assuming  some  position  with  Western  Goals? 

22  A    Yes.   Not  at  that  particular  meeting,  but  later. 


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Q    Did  Mr.  Channell  describe  for  you  any  of  the 
organizations  that  he  was  then  associated  with,  whether  it 
be  ACT  or  — 

A    Not  in  any  great  length;  no. 

Q    Did  he  solicit  any  financial  contributions  from 
you  at  that  lunch? 

A    No. 

0    Did  there  come  a  time  when  Mr.  Channell  did  in 
fact  solicit  money  from  you? 

A    Yes. 

0    Can  you  put  it  any  time  frame  after  your  February 
meeting  with  him? 

A    It's  hard  to  say  just  from  follow-up  sequence,  but 
fairly  shortly  after  that. 

Q    Can  you  give  me  an  idea  when  in  1985  Mr.  Channell 
assumed  control  of  Western  Goals? 

A     It  was  late  1985. 

0    So  that  he  began  to  solicit  money  from  you  or 
contributions  from  you  prior  to  the  time  that  he  actually 
took  a  role  with  Western  Goals? 

A    Yes. 

Q    What  he  solicit  money  for?   What  did  he  ask  you  to 


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contribute  money  to? 

MR.  MORGAN:   At  the  outset? 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Yes,  at  the  outset. 

BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

0    I  am  trying  to  get  an  idea  of  how  the  relationship 
evolved,  and  I'm  interested  in  the  early  phase  at  this 
point. 

A    He  was  interested  in  putting  ads  in  the 
newspapers,  and  television  spots,  in  support  of  the 
Nicaraguan  situation. 

0    Did  he  talk  to  you  about  where  these  ads  would  be 
aired? 

A    Yes,  from  time  to  time. 

Q    What  did  he  say  about  that? 

A    Washington  newspapers.  New  York  newspapers, 
Chicago. 

0    For  what  organization  was  he  soliciting 
contributions? 

A  It  was  never  clear  until  he  asked  me  to  make  a 
check  out  to  so-and-so.  I  never  particularly  knew  which 
organization  was  which. 

0    In  going  through  your  records,  you  ultimately  made 


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1  checks  out  to  a  number  of  his  organizations,  including  one 

2  called  ACTSEF,  American  Conservative  Trust  State  Election 

3  Fund;  later  Sentinel;  and  still  later  ATAC  which  is 

4  Anti-Terrorism  American  Committee;  and  also  a  number  of 

5  checks  made  out,  or  contributions  made  to  the  National 

6  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty,  NEPL. 

7  What  did  you  understand,  if  anything,  about  the 

8  differences  among  the  various  organizations  Mr.  Channel! 

9  solicited  for? 

10  A    I  understood  very  little  about  them. 

11  0    Did  you  view  them  essentially  as  interchangeable? 

12  A    Yes.   And  I  didn't  question  him. 

13  0    In  this  early  phase  —  let  me  put  a  finite  point 

14  on  it  —  did  there  come  a  time  when  you  began  to  have 

15  contact  with  people  at  the  National  Endowment  for 

16  Preservation  of  Liberty,  NEPL,  other  than  Mr.  Channell? 

17  A    No. 

18  0    Were  you  ever  solicited  by  a  man  by  the  name  of 

19  Chris  Smith? 

20  A    Yes. 

21  0    Can  you  tell  me  how  you  came  into  contact  with 

22  Mr.    Smith? 


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1  A    He  was  perhaps  the  first  contact  to  Channell's 

2  organizations  early  on,  and  he  was  the  one  who  solicited  for 

3  the  conservative  races  in  the  very,  very  beginning. 

4  0    Now,  you  say  "solicited  for  the  conservative 

5  races."   What  do  you  mean  by  that? 

6  A    Well,  in  support  of  the  conservative  congressional 

7  races. 

8  0    Do  you  associate  Mr.  Smith  with  any  particular 

9  organization  operated  or  affiliated  with  Mr.  Channel,  or  do 

10  you  just  view  him  as  part  of  the  pool  or  organizations  that 

11  he  had? 

12  MR.  MORGAN:   And  this  is  your  understanding  at  the 

13  time. 

14  THE  WITNESS:   Yes. 

15  It  wasn't  clear  at  all  what  he  was  representing. 

16  MR.  MORGAN: 

17  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

18  0    But  you  knew  that  he  worked  for  Mr.  Channell? 

19  A    Yes. 

20  Q    And  you  also  knew  that  he  was  soliciting  money  for 

21  political  races,  congressional  races? 

22  A    Yes. 


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^   -.i       1  0    Do  you  recall  which,  if  any,  of  the  organizations 

2  Mr.  Smith  told  you  to  make  your  contributions  to? 

3  A    It's  hard  to  recall. 

4  0    If  you  don't  recall,  that's  understandable. 

5  A    Yeah.   There  were  so  many  different  ones. 

6  0    Other  than  Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Smith,  did  anyone 

7  else  associated  with  Mr.  Channell  solicit  contributions  from 

8  you 

9  A    No. 

10  0    Did  you  have  contact  with  anyone  else  at 

11  Mr.  Channell's  organizations? 

12  Let  me  give  you  a  few  names  and  see  if  it's 

13  helpful  at  all.   Mr.  Daniel  Conrad. 

14  A    Yes,  later  on. 

15  0    That  was  later? 

16  A    (Nods  in  the  affirmative.) 

17  0    1  imagine  you  did  have  contact  with  Linda  Guell 

18  through  Western  Goals. 

19  A    Yes,  that's  right. 

20  0    Did  you  have  contact  with  James  McLaughlin? 

21  A    No. 

22  0    Did  you  have  contact  with  Chris  Littledale? 


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1   O        1  A     No. 

2  0    There  came  a  time  in  June  of  1985  when  you  made  a 

3  trip  to  Washington,  D.C.  at  the  invitation  of  the  National 

4  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty;  is  that  right? 

5  A    That's  correct. 

6  0    Let  me  show  you  what  we  can  mark  as  Deposition 

7  Exhibit  No.  1,  a  document  produced  by  you.   And  it  appears 

8  to  be  a  bill  or  an  invoice  from  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel,  noting 

9  arrival  and  departure  on  June  25th  —  I'm  sorry;  arrival  on 

10  June  25,  1985  and  departure  on  June  26th. 

11  (Deposition  Exhibit  No.  1 

12  identified.) 

13  (Document  handed  to  the  witness.) 

14  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   That's  probably  a  better  copy  than 

15  your  counsel  has,  so  why  don't  work  from  that? 

16  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

17  0    Was  that,  in  fact,  the  trip  that  we  were 

18  discussing? 

19  A    Yes. 

20  Q    Can  you  tell  me  how  that  trip  came  about,  who 

21  invited  you,  and  what  the  purpose  was? 

22  A    Yes.   Mr.  Channell  thought  he  had  arranged  a  visit 


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1  with  the  President  and  a  briefing  with  Oliver  North. 

2  0    What  happened  when  you  did  in  fact  arrive  in 

3  Washington,  as  best  you  can  remember  that? 

4  A    I  was  met  by  Mr.  Channell  at  the  Hay-Adams  and  he 

5  took  me  over  to  the  briefing,  to  the  White  House. 

6  0    And  what  occurred  at  the  briefing  or  at  the  white 

7  House? 

8  A    I  met  Oliver  North  in  the  National  Security 

9  Council  offices  and  he  produced  charts  and  slides  and  films 

10  of  what  was  going  on  in  Nicaragua,  and  just  explained  the 

11  situation  and  their  needs. 

12  0    What  did  you  understand  the  purpose  to  be?  Why 

13  were  they  briefing  you  on  this? 

14  A    I  really  don't  know  why.   I  wasn't  even  thinking 

15  about  that  at  the  moment. 

16  0    Did  you  know  why  Mr.  Channell  invited  you  to 

17  Washington? 

18  A    Just  because  he  wanted  me  to  be  more  alert  as  to 

19  what  was  happening. 

20  0    Had  he,  up  to  that  point,  solicited  contributions 

21  for  support  of  either  television  ads  or  — 

22  A    Yes,  up  to  that  point. 


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0    For  Nicaragua? 

A    For  Nicaragua. 

0  Had  he  solicited  direct  contributions  to  the 
contras,  the  Nicaraguan  Democratic  Resistance,  at  that 
point? 

A    No. 

0  So  up  the  point  of  this  White  House  meeting,  as 
far  as  Nicaragua  was  concerned,  the  only  contributions  he 
had  solicited  were  for  television  advertisements. 

A    That's  correct. 

0    Now,  you  met  with  Colonel  North  in  the  National 
Security  Council  offices.   Was  anyone  else  present  while  you 
were  meeting  with  Colonel  North? 

A    Mr.  Miller  and  Mr.  Channell. 

0    Did  they  actually  sit  in  on  the  briefing  that 
Colonel  North  gave  you? 

A    Yes. 

0  Was  this  done  in  Colonel  North's  own  office,  as 
best  you  can  tell,  or  was  it  done  in  a  conference  room? 

A    In  a  conference  room. 

0    Did  Colonel  North  show  any  displays,  any  maps, 
slides,  lists,  anything  like  that? 


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1   ;i       1         A    Yes. 

2  0    What  did  he  show  you? 

3  A    He  showed  where  the  airstrips  were  and  the  general 

4  problems  of  the  soldiers  and  so  forth. 

5  0    Did  he  discuss  the  needs  of  the  Nicaraguan 

6  resistance  at  that  point? 

7  A    Yes,  he  did. 

8  0    what  did  he  tell  you  that  they  needed? 

9  A    They  needed  equipment  and  food  and  weapons  and 

10  everything  to  keep  them  going. 

11  0    Did  Colonel  North  solicit  a  contribution  or  ask 

12  you  to  help  supply  — 

13  A    No. 

14  MR.  HORGAN:   Let  him  finish  his  question.   He  has 

15  a  time  frame  in  mind. 

16  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

17  "    0    At  this  meeting,  did  he  solicit  you  or  otherwise 

18  ask  you  to  help  fulfill  the  needs  of  the  Nicaraguan 

19  Resistance? 

20  A    No. 

21  Q     Did  he  make  any  references,  either  direct  or 

22  indirect  to  Mr.  Channell's  ability  to  solicit  contributions 


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1  for  those  purposes  and  provide  them  to  the  Nicaraguan 

2  Resistance? 

3  A     No. 

4  0    Did  he  mention  Mr.  Channell's  role  at  all? 

5  A     No. 

6  Q    Do  you  recall  —  you  mentioned  weapons  as  being 

7  one  of  the  items  he  discussed  at  that  briefing. 

8  Do  you  recall  any  specific  kinds  of  weapons  being 

9  discussed? 

10  A    No. 

11  0    Do  you  recall  whether  he  discussed  specific  prices 

12  for  weapons? 

13  A    No . 

14  0    Up  until  that  point,  had  you  met  Colonel  North 

15  before? 

16  A    No. 

17  "    0    Up  until  that  point,  had  you  met  Mr.  Miller 

18  before? 

19  A    No. 

20  0    Was  Mr.  Miller  there  when  you  arrived  that  morning 

21  in  Washington? 

22  A    I  believe  so. 


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0    What  did  you  understand  Mr.  Miller's  role  or 
assignment  to  be? 

A    I  didn't  know  what  it  was  at  that  time. 

0    Do  you  recall  how  he  was  introduced  to  you?  That 
is,  what  his  affiliation  was? 

A    No.   Just  by  name. 

0    Do  you  recall  any  mention  of  International 
Business  Communications  or  IBC  at  that  time? 

A    No. 

0    Up  until  that  meeting,  had  you  ever  met  Ronald 
Reagan? 

A    Yes. 

0    On  how  many  occasions  or  on  what  occasion? 

A    Well,  it  went  back  to  1964.   And  he  came  to 
Greenwich  and  my  husband  and  I  met  him  at  a  private  party 
given  for  him.   And  that's  the  only  time  I  previously 
actually  met  him,  but  we  had  correspondence,  letters  and  so 
forth. 

0    Am  I  correct  that  one  of  the  purposes  of  your  trip 
to  Washington  in  June  1985  was  perhaps  to  meet  Mr.  Reagan, 
or  was  it  just  for  the  briefing  with  Colonel  North? 

A    It  definitely  was  for  the  briefing  and  a 


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1  possibility  of  meeting  with  the  President. 

2  0    What  happened  after  the  briefing?   You  left  the 

3  I  White  House  at  that  point? 

4  A    Yes. 

5  0    While  at  the  White  House  or  in  the  National 

6  Security  Office,  did  you  meet  any  other  government  official? 

7  A    No. 

8  0    Not  John  Poindexter  or  Robert  McFarlane  or  any 

9  other  representative  of  the  government? 

10  A    No. 

11  0    Where  did  you  go  after  you  left  the  briefing? 

12  A    Came  back  to  the  hotel  and  subsequently  had  dinner 

13  at  the  hotel. 

14  0    Who  was  present  at  dinner? 

15  A    Mr.  Miller  and  Mr.  Channell.   I'm  not  sure  about 

16  Mr.  Conrad,  whether  he  was  there  or  not.   It's  possible  that 

17  he  was. 

18  0    Was  the  dinner  held  in  a  private  room  or  was  it 

19  out  in  the  restaurant? 

20  A    In  the  restaurant. 

21  0    What  did  you  discuss  at  dinner,  if  you  can  recall? 

22  A    More  about  the  Nicaraguan  situation  —  if  I  could 


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1  help  in  some  way. 

2  Q    Did  they  ask  you  to  contribute  to  the  cause  of  the 

3  Nicaraguan  Resistance? 

4  A    Not  specifically  that  way,  but  generally. 

5  0    Can  you  recall  how  they  put  it  generally,  or  give 

6  me  an  idea  how  they  put  it  generally? 

7  A    I  really  can't  remember  any  particular  questioning 

8  or  asking  me.   It  was  just  more  to  clue  me  in  to  the  needs 

9  again.   I  just  assumed  that  I  knew  what  they  wanted,  but 

10  j   they  really  didn't  come  out  and  say,  I  want  so  much  money 

11  for  this  or  that. 

12  0    I  see.   But  they  would  refer  back  to  the  briefing 

13  that  Colonel  North  gave  you? 

14  A    That's  right. 

15  0    And  you  said  you  knew  what  they  wanted,  and  what 

16  they  wanted  were  contributions;  is  that  right? 

17  A    That's  correct. 

18  0    Did  you  discuss,  or  did  they  discuss  or  even  imply 

19  what  the  contributions  would  be  used  for? 

20  A    Not  at  that  time. 

21  0    who  actually  was  doing  the  soliciting?  You've  got 

22  Mr.  Miller  and  Mr.  Channel  there.   Can  you  break  it  down  as 


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between  them  at  all? 

A    Not  particularly. 

MR.  MORGAN:   Excuse  me. 

(Counsel  confers  with  witness.) 

THE  WITNESS:   May  I  clarify  my  answer? 

BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

0    Sure. 

A    Mr.  Channell  was  the  main  solicitor,  always. 

0    Do  you  recall  being  solicited  at  all  by 
Mr.  Miller? 

A    No. 

0    But  he  was  present  at  this  dinner  when 
Mr.  Channell  was  soliciting? 

A    Yes. 

0    By  the  time  that  you  had  arrived  at  this  dinner, 
had  it  become  apparent  that  you  were  not  going  to  be  able  to 
meet  with  Mr.  Reagan  on  your  trip  to  Washington?  Or  what 
was  the  status  of  that  at  that  point? 

A    No.   There  was  a  possibility  that  I  would  the  next 
day. 

0    In  your  discussions  with  Mr.  Channell  and 
Mr.  Miller  about  the  needs  of  the  contras,  did  they  discuss 


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military  needs  as  well  as  non-military  needs? 

A    Very  little  about  the  military  needs  to  me.   It 
was  more  humanitarian. 

Q    You  say  very  little.   Do  you  have  a  specific 
recollection  of  them  discussing  any  military  needs? 

A    Only  that  they  needed  weapons,  but  it  was  mainly 
uniforms  and  food  and  equipment. 

0    And  you  say  that  they  did  not  really  solicit  your 
support  directly  for  any  particular  type  of  assistance  to 
the  contras  at  that  time? 

A    Not  at  that  time. 

0    But  you  understood  that  they  were  soliciting 
contributions  from  you. 

A    Well,  you  sensed  that. 

0  Did  you  sense  or  understand  what  they  intended  to 
do  with  any  contribution  that  you  might  give?  Again,  we're 
talking  about  the  June  1985  meeting. 

A    Not  at  that  time. 

0    Did  you  meet  with  anyone  else  that  evening? 
Again,  this  is  the  same  evening  that  you  had  the  briefing 


with  Colonel  North. 


Yes. 


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1  0    And  who  else  was  there?  Who  else  came  there,  I 

2  should  say. 

3  A    Mr.  Fischer  and  Mr,  Channell  and  Mr.  Miller  came 

4  later  that  evening. 

5  0    Was  that  in  the  restaurant  again,  or  where  did 

6  that  happen? 

7  A    No.   That  was  in  the  suite. 

8  0    And  Mr.  Fischer  --  what  was  his  —  how  was  he 

9  described  to  you?  What  were  you  told  about  what  he  did? 

10  A    I  really  was  not  told  anything  about  him  —  he  was 

11  just  there  —  and  that  he  would  inform  me  of  the  protocol  in 

12  a  meeting  with  the  President. 

13  0    And  what  did  he  tell  you  about  the  protocol? 

14  A    Just  that  you  would  be  ushered  in  and  you  would  be 

15  ushered  out.   Very  little.   It  would  be  brief.   That's  all. 

16  0    Did  either  Mr.  Channell  or  Mr.  Miller  tell  you 

17  what  to  discuss  with  the  President  or  what  not  to  discuss 

18  with  the  President? 

19  A    No. 

20  0    Did  they  attempt  to  limit  in  any  way  anything  you 

21  might  say  to  Mr.  Reagan? 

22  A    No. 


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0    Did  they  try  to  give  you  suggestions  about  things 
you  might  say  to  him? 

A    No. 

0    The  next  day,  were  there  any  other  events, 
significant  events,  that  you  can  remember  on  that  day,  the 
day  that  you  were  briefed  by  Colonel  North?   Anyone  else  you 
met  or  anyone  else  who  imparted  any  information  about  the 
Nicaraguan  Resistance? 

A    No. 

0    What  happened  the  next  day? 

A    There  is  some  emergency  that  arose  that  morning  in 
the  White  House,  and  I'm  not  clear  as  to  what  it  was.   But 
the  President  was  not  able  to  meet  with  me. 

0    Did  you  go  over  to  the  White  House  to  wait? 

A    No.   It  was  very  clear  that  morning  that  it  was 
not  to  be. 

0    Did  you  meet  with  anyone  that  morning  or  that  day? 

A    Only  Mr.  Channell  again. 

0    Did  you  see  Mr.  Miller  that  day,  if  you  recall? 

A    No. 

0    How  about  Colonel  North? 


No. 


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9210  02  09 

1   4i       1         0    Did  Mr.  Fischer  come  back  again  by  any  chance? 

2  A    No. 

3  0     In  leading  up  to  this  meeting  with  the  President, 

4  or  this  proposed  meeting  with  the  President,  was  it  ever 

5  suggested  to  you  by  anyone  that  a  contribution  in  a  certain 

6  amount  or  a  contribution  of  a  certain  size  might  enable  you 

7  to  meet  with  the  President? 

8  A    No. 

9  0    Was  there  any  direct  connection  drawn  between  any 

10  contribution  you  might  make  or  did  make  and  the  meeting  with 

11  President  Reagan? 

12  A    No. 

13  0    Was  that  ever  —  I  don't  want  to  say  "implied,  but 

14  was  there  ever  an  indirect  indication  to  you  that  that  in 

15  fact  was  the  case? 

16  A  .  No. 

17  0    Did  you  ever  have  a  discussion  like  that,  or  was 

18  that  information  ever  imparted  to  you  at  any  time  after  the 

19  June  meeting?  Did  you  ever  understand  there  to  be  a 

20  relationship  between  your  contributions  and  any  meeting  with 

21  Ronald  Reagan? 

22  A     No. 


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9210    02    10 

1   ;i       1         0    Do  you  recall  any  specifics  of  your  discussion 

2  with  Mr.  Channell  on  the  next  day?   That  would  have  been 

3  June  26,  1985. 

4  A    No,  because  we  left  shortly.   We  went  to  some  art 

5  galleries  and  we  went  home. 

6  0    Do  you  recall  again  being  solicited  for 

7  contributions  on  that  day? 

8  A    No. 

9  0    Am  I  correct  that  by  the  time  you  had  this  meeting 

10  in  Washington,  D.C.,  you  had  made  a  series  of  contributions 

11  to  the  American  Conservative  —  what's  called  ACSEF  — 

12  American  Conservative  State  Election  Fund  or  to  NEPL.   By 

13  that  time  you  had  already  been  making  contributions  to  them? 

14  A    Yes. 

15  0    Can  we  agree  that  after  this  trip  to  Washington, 

16  you  made  additional  contributions  in  the  next  couple  of 

17  months  to  the  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of 

18  Liberty? 

19  A    I  don't  know  whether  it  was  in  the  next  couple  of 

20  months  or  not. 

21  0    Did  you  come  away  from  the  meeting  in  Washington 

22  with  an  intention  to  make  contributions  to  support  the 


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Nicaraguan  opposition? 

A    I  made  no  commitments  outwardly,  but  to  myself  I 
did. 

0    When  was  the  next  time  someone  attempted  to  obtain 
a  contribution  for  that  purpose? 

A    There  again,  I  really  don't  know  how  —  the  time 
span  —  but  I  did  contribute  later  on. 

0    This  is  a  point  of  general  reference  in  looking 
through  the  records  supplied  by  counsel.   Your  contributions 
seem  to  be  periodic  ones;  every  month  or  every  couple  of 
months  you  would  make  a  contribution  to  one  of 
Mr.  Channell's  organizations. 

As  a  general  matter,  were  those  contributions  made 
in  response  to  specific  appeals  or  were  those  made  on  the 
basis  of  every  now  and  then  you  would  find  a  way  to  make  a 
contribution  to  them,  whether  they  asked  for  it  or  not? 

A    No.   They  were  usually  for  particularly  things, 
lobbying  efforts. 

0    So  they  would  call  you  up  or  write  you  a  letter 
and  say  we  need  a  contribution  for  such  and  such,  and  you 
would  then  essentially  target  your  contribution  to  that? 
A    That's  right. 


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1  (Counsel  confers  with  witness.) 

2  THE  WITNESS:   May  I  clarify  that? 

3  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

4  0    Sure.   Absolutely. 

5  A    All  solicitations  were  made  by  phone.   No  letters. 

6  MR.  MORGAN:   We  are  not  aware  of  any  letters,  and 

7  your  question  included  both. 

8  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   That's  fine.   Just  for  the  record, 

9  we  have  seen  a  lot  of  letters,  and  I  wasn't  attempting  to 

10  indicate  that  there  were  letters.   I  was  just  trying  to  be  a 

11  little  more  generic. 

12  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

13  0    Can  you  recall  the  first  contribution  you  made 

14  with  the  intent  of  providing  direct  support  to  the 

15  Nicaraguan  opposition? 

16  A    Are  you  asking  for  the  time  or  — 

17  0    I'm  just  asking  if  you  recall  the  context  in  which 

18  it  was  made. 

19  A    Only  through  another  call  from  Mr.  Channell,  or  if 

20  a  specific  thing  was  needed. 

21  0    Do  you  recall  what  the  specific  thing  that  was 
22 


needed  was? 


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9210  02  13 

1   ci       1         A    At  one  time  it  was  to  repair  an  airstrip.   At 

2  another  time  it  was  for  a  reconnaissance  plane. 

3  0    Do  you  ever  recall  Mr.  Channell  specifically 

4  requesting  funds  for  military  equipment  or  weapons? 

5  A    No, 

6  0    Did  he  ever  request  funds  that  weren't  targeted  to 

7  any  particular  need  of  the  contras?  That  is,  you've 

8  mentioned  an  airstrip  and  you've  mentioned  a  reconnaissance 

9  plane. 

10  Did  he  ever  ask  for  funds  for  the  general  support 

11  of  the  contras? 

12  A    No. 

13  MR.  HORGAN:   Excuse  me  one  moment. 

14  (Counsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 

15  THE  WITNESS:   I  need  to  clarify  my  answer,  please. 

16  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

17  0    Sure. 

18  A    In  between  specifics,  there  were  generalities  for 

19  I  never  knew  exactly  what,  whether  they  were  for  ads. 

20  Again,  it  was  all  pertaining  to  the  Nicaraguan  situation. 

21  Q    And  you  say  whether  they  were  for  ads.   They  also 

22  might  have  been  just  for  general  financial  support  directly 


uNcume 


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to  the  contras  as  you  understood  it? 
A    I  guess  so;  yes. 

0    Did  you  ever  indicate  to  Mr.  Channell  that  you 
would  have  an  objection  to  your  contributions  being  used  for 
military  assistance?   Did  you  ever  tell  him  do  not  —  or 
ensure  that  my  contributions  are  not  used  for  that? 

A    No.   But  it  never  occurred  to  me  that  they  would 
be  used  for  that. 

Q    There  came  a  time  in  November  of  1985,  I  believe 
November  7,  when  you  again  traveled  to  Washington.   I 
believe  at  that  time  you  did  in  fact  meet  Mr.  Reagan.   Am  I 
right  in  that? 

A    That's  right. 

0    Did  you  make  any  trips  that  you  can  recall  to 
Washington  between  June  of  1985  when  you  did  not  get  to  see 
Mr.  Reagan  and  November  7  of  1985  when  you  did? 

A    No. 

0    To  the  best  of  your  recollection,  did  Mr.  Channell 
visit  you  at  your  home  in  Connecticut  in  that  period  of 
time? 

A    I  know  he  visited  my  home,  but  don't  ask  me  just 


when. 


mmm,.. 


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34 


0    How  did  the  meeting  with  the  President  on 
November  7th  come  about?   How  did  the  invitation  come  to  you 
and  how  was  it  explained  to  you? 

A    Again  on  the  telephone.   He  told  me  of  having 
arranged  the  meeting  and  the  date,  the  time  that  I  should  be 
there. 

0  Did  he  explain  what  the  purpose  of  the  meeting  was 
or  how  it  came  about? 

A    Just  to  be  thanked  by  the  President. 

0    Did  he  say  thanked  for  what? 

A    He  didn't. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let's  mark  this  as  Deposition 
Exhibit  No.  2,  which  is  a  letter  again  from  your  documents, 
dated  October  10,  1985  from  Mr.  Reagan. 

(Deposition  Exhibit  No.  2 
identified. ) 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

0    Do  you  recall  receiving  this  letter? 

A    Yes,  I  do. 

Q  Do  you  know  why  you  received  the  letter?  It  is  an 
obviously  an  expression  of  gratitude.  Do  you  associate  this 
letter  with  any  particular  effort  or  action  on  your  part? 


\immm 


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1  A     No. 

2  0    Were  you  surprised  to  receive  the  letter? 

3  A    Yes . 

4  0    Had  Mr.  Channell  indicated  to  you  prior  to 

5  receiving  this  letter,  that  you  might  receive  it? 

6  A    No. 

7  0    Did  you  make  any  connection  in  your  own  mind 

8  between  Mr.  Channell  and  the  letter  of  October  10? 

9  1        A     No. 

10  0    Did  you  make  any  connection  in  your  own  mind 

11  between  your  contributions  to  NEPL  or  Mr.  Channell's 

12  organizations  and  the  letter  of  October  10? 

13  A    No,  not  at  that  time. 

14  0    Could  you  tell  me  what  happened  when  you  traveled 

15  to  Washington  on  November  7th? 

16  (Deposition  Exhibit  No.  3 

17  identified.) 

18  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

19  0    And  so  you  have  it  in  front  of  you,  let's  mark 

20  this  as  Exhibit  3.   It's  a  page  from  your  appointment  book, 

21  which  is  the  basis  for  my  November  7th  statement.   I  hope  it 

22  is  correct.   A  page  from  November  1985  with  the  word 


ONciissra 


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"Washington"  written  across  November  7th.   Is  that  right? 

A    Yes,  it's  right. 

0    To  the  best  of  your  recollection,  is  that  in  fact 
when  your  meeting  with  President  Reagan  took  place? 

A    Yes. 

0    On  November  7,  1985? 

A    Yes. 

0    Can  you  tell  me  what  happened  when  you  traveled  to 
Washington?  Who  met  you?   Let's  start  there. 

A    I  believe  it  was  Mr.  Channell  who  met  me  again. 

Q    And  did  he  meet  you  at  the  airport? 

A    No,  at  the  hotel. 

0    Let  me  back  up  for  one  moment. 

The  expenses  for  your  trip  to  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel 
in  June  of  1985  —  were  you  reimbursed  for  those  or  did  you 
pay  those  out  of  your  own  pocket? 

A    I  had  some  members  of  my  family  with  me  and  I  paid 
for  those.   Mr.  Channell  paid  for  me. 

0    All  right. 

And  on  the  trip  on  November  7,  1985,  did  you 
travel  alone  at  that  point? 

A    In  November? 


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0    In  November.   The  November  trip? 
A    Yes. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Can  you  repeat  the  question?  Was  she 
traveling  alone? 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   My  question  is  in  specific  regard 
to  the  November  1985  trip,  was  she  traveling  alone? 
THE  WITNESS:   Yes,  I  was. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Let  me  assist  the  witness  in  terms  of 
her  recollection. 

(Counsel  and  witness  confer.) 
THE  WITNESS:   My  driver  brought  me  down. 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    So  you  drove  down  to  Washington. 
A    And  the  driver's  wife;  yes. 

0    Did  you  again  check  into  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel? 
A    Yes . 

0    What  happened  that  day  after  Mr.  Channell  met  you 
A    It  was  in  the  afternoon,  and  I  was  taken  over  to 
the  White  House  and  ushered  into  the  West  Gate  waiting  room 
and  waited.   And  Mr.  Buchanan  came  to  usher  me  into  the  Oval 
Office. 

0    Did  Mr.  Channell  accompany  you  over  to  the  White 


Inc. 


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House? 


A     I'm  not  sure  whether  tie  accompanied  me  or  he  was 
there  waiting  for  me.   I'm  vague  on  that,  but  he  was  there. 

0    Was  anyone  else  with  Mr.  Channell?   Was  Mr.  Miller 
there  or  Mr.  Fischer? 

A    No. 

0    So  you  were  met  by  Mr.  Buchanan.   And  what 
happened  at  that  point? 

A    He  shook  my  hand  and  said  he  was  glad  to  meet  me. 
We  had  to  wait  a  while,  and  then  I  was  taken  in  to  see  the 
President. 

0    Can  you  tell  me  what  you  recollect  about  your 
jneeting  with  the  President? 

A    It  was  very  brief.   There  were  photographers 
around.   We  just  stood  shaking  hands  and  exchanging 
thank-you's.   And  I  remember  more  what  I  said  to  him  than 
what  he  said  to  me. 

I  said  to  him  that  I  thought  he  had  brought  God 
back  into  the  White  House.   And  he  said,  "I've  been  talking 
to  him  a  lot  lately  and  I  intend  to  take  him  to  the  summit 
with  me." 

Then  I  felt  that  he  really  had  nothing  more  to  say 


ONCUSSIRED 

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39 


1  and  so  I  went  outf  and  didn't  wait  to  be  ushered  out,  which 

2  was  not  right. 

3  0    Did  the  subject  of  Central  America  or  Nicaragua 

4  come  up  at  all? 

5  A    No. 

6  0    Did  President  Reagan  acknowledge  in  any  way  —  did 

7  he  say  thank  you,  or  thank  you  for  your  efforts  on  behalf  of 

8  something,  or  make  any  statements  like  that? 

9  A    No. 

10  0    What  happened  after  you  left  President  Reagan? 

11  A    Went  back  to  the  hotel  — 

12  Q    Let  me  stop  you  there. 

13  While  you  were  at  the  White  House,  did  you  see  any 

14  other  government  officials?  Did  you  see  Colonel  North  or 

15  anyone  other  than  Pat  Buchanan? 

16  A    No,  not  at  that  time. 

17  0    What  happened  after  you  went  back  —  you  went  back 

18  to  the  hotel  with  Mr.  Channell? 

19  A    Yes. 

20  0    What  happened  when  you  went  back  to  the  hotel? 

21  A    May  I  speak  to  counsel  for  a  minute,  please? 
22 


0    Sure. 


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uNcussra 


40 


1  (Counsel  and  witness  confer.) 

2  THE  WITNESS:   Going  back  to  your  question,  I'm  not 

3  sure  whether  it  was  this  visit  or  another  one,  but  there  was 

4  a  point  when  I  saw  his  offices. 

5  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

6  0    Mr.  Channell's  offices? 

7  A    Mr.  Channell's  offices.   And  he  took  me  over  to 

8  the  man  who  created  the  ads  and  so  forth,  Mr.  Goodman,  and  I 

9  met  him  briefly.   And  it  may  have  been  at  that  time  —  I'm 

10  not  absolutely  certain. 

11  0    The  offices  that  you  visited,  were  they  up  on 

12  Capitol  Hill  in  a  townhouse,  or  were  they  down  on 

13  Pennsylvania  Avenue  in  an  office  building? 

14  A    No,  they  were  in  a  townhouse. 

15  0    While  you  visited  his  offices,  did  you  meet 

16  anyone  else  at  this  organization  if  you  can  recall? 

17  A    Only  his  secretary. 

18  0    Was  that  Angie? 

19  A    Angie. 

20  0    Setting  aside  that  trip  to  the  townhouse  and  the 

21  Goodman  incident,  after  you  left  the  White  House  with 

22  Mr.  Channel,  I  believe  you  said,  eventually  you  got  back  to 


s.  Inc. 


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41 


the  hotel. 

Did  you  dine  with  him  at  that  point  or  discuss 
anything  with  him? 

A    We  had  dinner. 

0    Was  anyone  else  present  at  dinner? 

A    I  believe  Dan  Conrad.   I  believe  that's  all.   Just 
Dan,  Mr.  Channell,  and  myself. 


Do  you  recall  anything  that  was  discussed  at  that 


time? 


A    Nothing  specific. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Excuse  me  one  moment. 
(Counsel  and  witness  confer.) 

THE  WITNESS:   To  clarify  that,  I  think  Mr.  Miller 
was  present,  too.   I'm  never  quite  sure.   He  drifted  in  and 
out.   I'm  never  quite  sure  whether  he's  with  us  or  not. 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    Did  you  ever  come  to  an  understanding  as  to  what 
Mr.  Miller's  role  was? 

A    I  never  knew  what  his  role  was  at  that  time. 
0    You  say  you  never  knew  at  that  time.   Other  than 
the  publicity  that's  come  out  in  recent  months,  did  you  ever 
in  your  relationship  with  Mr.  Channel  understand  what  his 


lIMMSn^  - 


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role  was? 

A    When  I  read  it  in  the  paper. 
0    At  that  dinner,  was  one  of  the  topics  of 
discussion  the  needs  of  the  Resistance  fighters  in 
Nicaragua? 

A    Would  you  repeat  that  again? 
0    Sure. 

At  the  dinner  with  Mr.  Conrad  and  Mr.  Channell  and 
perhaps  Mr.  Miller,  did  you  or  they  discuss  the  needs  of  the 
contras,  the  Nicaraguan  Democratic  Resistance? 
A    Yes.   I'm  sure  we  touched  on  it. 

0    Do  you  recall  any  specifics  of  that  conversation? 
A    No. 

0    Did  you  recall  being  solicited  for  a  contribution 
or  contributions  at  that  dinner? 

A    Not  right  at  the  dinner. 

0    Were  you  solicited  shortly  after  the  dinner? 
A    I'm  sure;  another  phone  call. 

Q    Do  you  recall  at  that  dinner  —  let's  go  back  to 
the  dinner  —  any  specific  needs  of  the  contras  being 
mentioned? 

A    I'm  not  sure  whether  it  was  at  that  time  that  they 


"iyssm.,.. 


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9210    03    07 

i   ci       1  mentioned  the  plane.   I  don't  believe  there  were  any 

2  specifics. 

3  0    Did  you  stay  in  Washington  overnight  or  did  you 

4  return  that  evening? 

5  A    Stayed  overnight. 

6  0    Did  you  meet  with  anyone  the  next  day? 

7  A    There  was  a  breakfast  with  Colonel  North.   I'm  not 

8  sure  whether  it  was  that  meeting  or  the  next  one.   But 

9  anyway,  it  was  a  very  brief  breakfast. 

10  0    What  was  discussed  at  that  breakfast,  if  you 

11  recall? 

12  A    He  was  telling  me  how  they  found  their  home  in 

13  Virginia  and  telling  me  about  his  wife  and  children. 

14  0    Was  Mr.  Channell  present  at  that  breakfast  as 

15  well? 

16  A    Yes. 

17  0    How  about  Mr.  Miller,  if  you  recall? 

18  A    Not  Mr.  Miller.   I  think  it  was  Mr.  Conrad. 

19  Q    Did  Colonel  North  discuss  the  needs  or  the 

20  position  of  the  contras  at  that  breakfast? 

21  A    No. 

22  Q    Did  Colonel  North  solicit  any  contributions  at 


UNCLASSIFIED 

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KNCUSSra 


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9210    03    08 

1    i       1  that  breakfast? 

2  A    No. 

3  0    As  best  you  can  recall,  did  Mr.  Channell  —  did 

4  anyone  at  that  breakfast  discuss  Central  America,  Nicaragua, 

5  or  the  needs  of  the  contras? 

6  A    No. 

7  0    Did  anyone  solicit  any  contributions  at  that 

8  breakfast? 

9  A    No. 

10  0    What  is  the  next  contact  after  that  breakfast? 

11  Did  you  return  to  Connecticut,  or  were  there  any  other 

12  events  that  day  that  you  remember? 

13  A    No.   I  went  right  home. 

14  0    What  was  the  next  contact  you  recall  receiving 

15  from  Mr.  Channel  or  his  organizations? 

16  A    What?   Requests? 

17  0    Yes.   Any  requests,  any  telephone  calls,  any 

18  meetings  with  Mr.  Channell?   The  next  contact  you  might  have 

19  had. 

20  A    It  could  have  been  a  visit  up  to  Greenwich, 

21  showing  me  ads  for  the  newspapers  again.   It's  all  so 

22  confusing. 


AceTederal  RFmwfERS,  Inc. 


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UNCUSffD 


45 


9210    03    09 

1    i       1  0    All  right.   You  continued  after  your  meeting  with 

2  President  Reagan,  did  you  not,  to  make  contributions  to 

3  NEPL? 

4  A    Yes. 

5  0    And  in  November  and  December  of  1985,  you  made 

6  very  sizable  donations  of  stock  to  NEPL;  do  you  recall  that? 

7  A    Yes . 

8  0    Each  of  them  was  in  the  amount  of  approximately 

9  $500,000  and  totaled  over  a  million  dollars.   Is  that  right? 

10  A    Yes. 

11  0    Do  you  recall  what  those  contributions  were  for? 

12  A    I  think  that  was  for  the  plane  and  the  airstrip. 

13  0    Do  you  recall  how  the  plane  and  the  airstrip  first 

14  came  to  your  attention? 

15  A    I  think  it  was  mentioned  at  the  briefing,  but  not 

16  specifically  till  later  on. 

17  •    0    Do  you  remember  who  specifically  brought  it  back 

18  up  again? 

19  A    Mr.  Channell. 

20  0    Do  you  remember  at  what  meeting  or  in  what  context 

21  he  brought  it  back  up  again? 

22  A    That  was  another  phone  call. 


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0    Just  for  point  of  clarification,  when  you  refer  to 
the  briefing,  you  refer  to  Colonel  North's  briefing  in  June? 

A    Yes. 

0    You  say  you  believe  it  was  a  phone  call  in  which 
Mr.  Channell  resurrected  the  airstrip  and  the  spotter  plane 
again? 

A    Yes. 

0    Did  he  talk  in  terms  of  specific  amounts  necessary 
to  repair  the  airstrip  or  buy  the  spotter  plane? 

A    Yes.   But  I  don't  remember  the  amounts  at  this 
point. 

0    Do  you  remember  whether  your  contributions  were 
going  to  be  enough,  too  much,  or  not  enough?   Were  you  going 
to  be  the  one  solely  repairing  the  airstrip,  or  were  other 
people  needed  as  well? 

A    No.   I  think  the  plane  was  me,  but  the  airstrip 
Was  just  a  part  of  it. 

0    Do  you  recall  any  discussion  of  where  the  airstrip 
was  located? 

A     No. 

0    Do  you  recall  the  country  in  which  it  was  located? 


A    No. 


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0    Do  you  know  whether  it  was  located  on  what  has 
become  known  as  the  northern  or  the  southern  front? 

A    I  really  don't  know. 

0    Are  you  now,  or  were  you  then  at  all  familiar  with 
the  distinction  between  the  northern  front  and  the  southern 
front  in  Nicaragua? 

A    No. 

Q    Do  you  recall  if  Mr.  Miller  was  present  at  the 
breakfast  you  had  with  Colonel  North? 

A     No. 

0    You  don't  recall,  or  he  was  not  present? 

A    He  was  not  there. 

0    Was  Colonel  North  present  at  the  dinner  the  night 
before  with  Mr.  Channell? 

A   _  No. 

0    So  that  the  only  time  you  recall  meeting  Colonel 
North  on  that  trip  to  Washington  was  at  the  breakfast  the 
next  morning? 

A    That's  correct. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Tom,  let  me  see  if  I  can  clarify 
chronology  perhaps. 

(Counsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 


ERS,  Inc. 


407 


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48 


THE  WITNESS:   To  clarify,  there  was  a  meeting 
after  dinner  in  my  suite  with  Colonel  North. 

BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    Oh,  that's  where  I  got  off  the  track. 

All  right.   Tell  me  about  the  meeting  in  the  suite 
after  dinner. 

A    He  came  to  bring  me  a  gift  from  the  President  that 
I  dashed  out  and  didn't  receive  when  I  was  there,  and  also 
to  talk  more  about  the  needs  of  the  contras. 

0    Can  you  tell  me,  first  of  all,  what  was  the  gift? 

A    The  gift  was  a  glass  plaque.   On  one  side  of  it  it 
read,  etched  in  the  President's  handwriting:   "There  is  no 
limits  to  what  a  man  can  do  or  where  he  can  go  if  he  does 
not  care  who  gets  the  credit." 

0    And  what  do  you  recall  about  Colonel  North's 
discussions  at  that  evening  meeting? 

A    Just  more  about  the  contra  situation.   He  wanted 
to  know  about  my  meeting. 

0    He  asked  you  about  your  meeting  with  President 
Reagan? 

A    Yes. 

0    And  did  he  discuss,  if  you  recall,  did  he  discuss 


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the  airstrip  and/or  the  spotter  plane  -- 
A     No. 
0    —  at  that  meeting? 

Did  he  discuss  the  needs  of  the  contras? 
A    Yes. 

0    And  what  types  of  needs  did  he  describe  at  that 
meeting? 

A    More  of  the  same.   Food  and  equipment  and  weapons. 
MR.  HORGAN:   Excuse  me  one  moment. 
(Counsel  and  witness  confer.) 

THE  WITNESS:  Clarifying  this  answer,  he  did  bring 
out  a  map  to  show  the  situation  in  Nicaragua  and  most  likely 
—  it's  just  not  clear  to  me  —  but  most  likely  he  did  speak 
about  the  airstrip. 

BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
Q    But  you  don't  recollect  where  that  airstrip  might 
have  been  located? 
A    No. 

0    The  plane  that  we  have  been  talking  about,  was  it 
ever  identified  as  a  Majgi  aircraft?  Have  you  ever  heard 


that  term? 


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1  0    Just  what  you  call  a  reconnaissance  plane  or  a 

2  spotter  plane? 

3  A    That's  correct. 

4  0    Who  was  present  at  this  meeting  in  your  suite 

5  after  dinner? 

6  A    It  was  Mr.  Channell,  Colonel  North,  and  I  believe 

7  it  was  Dan  Conrad. 

8  0    Could  Mr.  Miller  have  been  there? 

9  A    I  am  quite  sure  he  was  not  there. 

10  0    Did  Colonel  North  solicit  any  contributions  or  any 

11  funds  for  the  contras  at  that  meeting? 

12  A    No. 

13  0    Did  Colonel  North  make  any  indication  that 

14  Mr.  Channell  could  provide  the  needs,  the  contributions  of 

15  Mr.  Channell  might  provide  for  the  needs  of  the  contras? 

16  A    No . 

17  0    Other  than  the  meeting  with  the  President,  the 

18  meetings  you  have  described  so  far,  were  there  any  other 

19  meetings  during  that  trip  to  Washington  that  you  recall? 

20  A    No. 

21  0    Mrs.  Newington,  the  records  that  you've  turned 

22  over  to  us  indicate  —  this  is  just  as  a  general  matter. 


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1  subject  to  check  by  Mr.  Horgan  —  that  between  October  of 

2  1985  and  about  March  of  1986,  in  that  six-month  period  that 

3  straddled  the  New  Year,  you  made  contributions  to  NEPL  of 

4  approximately  about  $1  million  --  about  a  million  and  a  half 

5  in  stock  and  another  $500,000  or  so  in  cash  or  in  checks.   I 

6  won't  say  cash. 

7  Is  that  about  it? 

8  MR.  HORGAN:   That's  close? 

9  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

10  0    So  about  a  million  and  a  half  dollars  in  stocks 

11  and  about  $500,000  in  cash. 

12  Was  all  that  to  be  devoted,  as  you  recall,  to  the 

13  repair  of  the  airstrip  or  the  purchase  of  a  spotter  plane? 

14  A    Oh,  no. 

15  0    For  what  other  purposes  were  you  contributing? 

16  A    This  was,  I  am  quite  sure,  during  the  lobbying 

17  efforts  for  the  Congress  as  well  as  continuous  ads  and 

18  television  spots. 

19  0    Can  you,  in  your  own  mind,  separate  out  what 

20  portions  of  those  contributions  —  with  the  parameters  I 

21  gave  you  —  what  portions  of  the  contributions  —  we're 

22  talking  about  a  total  contribution  in  the  neighborhood  of 


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$2  million  over  the  space  of  about  six  months. 

Can  you,  in  your  own  mind,  sort  out  how  much  of 
that  was  devoted  to  the  contras  and  how  much  was  devoted  to 
television  ads? 
A    No, 

0    Does  that  help  you  at  all  fix  the  amount  they  were 
requesting  for  the  airfield  and  for  the  spotter  plane? 
A    Not  really. 

(Deposition  Exhibit  No.  4 
identified . ) 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    Mrs.  Newington,  Deposition  Exhibit  4  is  a  letter 
from  Oliver  North  dated  January  24,  1986,  among  the 
documents  you  provided  to  us 

Do  you  recall  receiving  that  letter? 
A    Yes . 

0    Between  November  7,  1986  —  1985,  excuse  me  --  the 
evening  meeting  and  the  breakfast  during  the  trip  to 
Washington  and  your  receipt  of  this  letter,  had  you  had  any 
further  communications  with  Colonel  North? 

A    Only  in  the  phone  calls.   I  was  requested  by 
Mr.  Channell  once  in  a  while  to  call  him  to  cheer  him  up  and 


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1  to  find  out  how  things  were  going.   I  may  have  done  that 

2  maybe  twice. 

3  0    And  these  phone  calls,  when 'yo'J  called  to  cheer 

4  him  up  or  find  out  how  things  were  going,  did  you  discuss 

5  Nicaragua  or  any  similar  situations? 

6  A    No. 

7  0    Obviously  the  letter  is  expressing  its 

8  appreciation  for  your  support  and  your  efforts,  and  those  of 

9  the  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty. 

10  If  you  go  to  the  third  paragraph,  in  particular 

11  the  last  two  sentences  in  that  paragraph,  it  reads:   "In  the 

12  weeks  ahead,  we  will  commence  a  renewed  effort  to  make  our 

13  assistance  to  the  Democratic  Resistance  Forces  even  more 

14  effective.   Once  again  your  support  will  be  essential." 

15  How  did  you  understand  you  were  to  provide  your 

16  support  to  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance? 

17  A    There  was  no  particular  emphasis  on  anything  that 

18  I  can  recall. 

19  0    Did  you  understand  that  your  support  will  be 

20  essential  to  be  a  reference  to  the  support  that  you  had 

21  previously  given  to  the  National  Endowment  for  the 

22  Preservation  of  Liberty? 


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mmxM 


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Yes. 


0    And  in  speaking  of  continued  support,  did  you 
understand  that  to  mean  that  your  continued  support  of  the 
National  Endowment  would  be  essential? 

A    Yes. 

0    There  came  a  time  in,  I  believe,  early  1986,  did 
there  not,  when  Mr.  Channell  had  your  phones  swept  for 
surveillance  devices;  is  that  right? 

A    That's  right. 

0    Can  you  tell  me  how  that  came  about? 

A    He  just  suggested  that  it  might  be  a  good  idea  for 
me  to  have  it  done.   I  really  didn't  question  why  he  thought 
it  would  be,  but  if  he  wanted  to  do  it,  it  was  all  right 
with  me. 

0    Did  it  seem  like  an  unusual  request  from  your 
standpoint? 

A    Yes . 

0    Had  you  ever  had  it  done  before? 

A    No. 

0    Have  you  ever  had  it  done  since? 

A    No. 

0    Can  you  recall  anything  further  about  the 


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conversation  as  to  why  it  was  necessary  to  sweep  your 
phones? 

A    It  really  was  not  gone  into.   Just  a  suggestion. 

0    What  brought  it  about?  Was  there  any  meeting  that 
was  coming  up,  a  visit  by  anyone,  or  did  this  just  come  out 
of  the  blue? 

A    Out  of  the  blue. 

0    Had  you  at  that  point  been  having  telephone 
conversations  with  Colonel  North? 

A    Only  the  ones  that  I  referred  to. 

0    Did  he  indicate  that  he  was  doing  this  at  the 
suggestion  of  anyone?   That  he  was  sweeping  your  phones  at 
the  suggestion  of  anyone? 

A    No. 

0    And  the  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of 
Liberty  did  in  fact  pay  for  the  sweep,  did  it  not? 

A    Yes . 

MR.  HORGAN:   In  terms  of  your  last  question, 
Mrs.  Newington  learned  who  paid  for  it  recently.   She  did 
not  really  have  any  understanding  at  the  time. 
BY  MR.  MC  GOCJGH: 

0    You  were  not  responsible  for  paying  for  it;  is 


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1  that   right? 

2  A  That's    right. 

3  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let's  mark  this  as  Exhibit  No.  5. 
*  (Deposition  Exhibit  No.  5 

5  identified. ) 

6  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Would  you  care  to  take  a  break  for 

7  a  few  minutes? 

8  MR.  HORGAN:   Maybe  in  a  little  while.   She  is  not 

9  used  to  this. 

10  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   I  understand.   As  soon  as  you  feel 

11  that  might  be  helpful,  just  let  me  know. 

12  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

13  0    Now,  we  have  marked  Exhibit  5,  which  is  again  a 

14  document  produced  by  your  counsel  and  it  reflects  a 

15  transaction  at  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel  in  Washington  on 

16  February  28,  1986. 

17  •         Did  you  in  fact  visit  Washington  and  stay  at  the 

18  Hay-Adams  at  that  time? 

19  A    That's  correct. 

20  0    And  can  you  recall  the  purpose  of  that  trip? 

21  A    That  was  the  second  visit  to  the  President. 

22  0    How  did  that  come  about? 


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1  A  That  again  was  arranged  by  Mr.  Channell. 

2  0  Did  he  explain  why  it  had  been  arranged? 

3  'a  No. 

4  0  He,  in  effect,  invited  you  to  come  down  and  attend 

5  this  —  or  visit  the  President;  is  that  right? 

6  A  That's  right. 

7  0  Can  you  tell  me  what  happened  when  you  traveled 

8  to  Washington? 

9  A  This  time  I  came  down  by  train  with  members  of  my 

10  family. 

11  MR.  HORGAN:   Bear  with  me  a  moment. 

12  (Counsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 

13  THE  WITNESS:   Yes,  sir.   I  came  down  on  the  train 

14  with  my  sister,  brother-in-law,  and  my  daughter. 

15  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

16  0  And  who  met  you,  if  you  recall? 

17  A  Mr.  Smith.   Cliff  Smith. 

18  0  1  note  on  there  that  there  is  an  Amtrak  entry. 

19  that  might  be  the  train  tickets. 

20  Where  did  Mr.  Smith  take  you? 

21  A  To  the  hotel. 

22  0  And  had  you  met  Cliff  Smith  prior  to  that? 


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No. 


2  0    It  was  the  first  time  you  met  him? 

3  I       A     (Nods  in  the  affirmative.) 

4  0    But  he  had  corresponded  with  you  before  that;  is 

5  that  right? 

6  A    On  the  phone;  yes. 

7  0    What  happened  when  you  got  to  the  hotel?  Was 

8  there  anyone  else  there? 

9  A    Not  at  that  moment,  but  eventually  I  was  met  by 

10  Mr.  Channell. 

11  0    What  happened  next? 

12  A    I  believe  that  was  the  afternoon  that  I  went  to 

13  see  the  President. 

14  0    Can  you  tell  me  how  that  came  about? 

15  A    Yes.   I  think  Mr.  Channell  took  me  over  to  the 

16  White  House  again  and  I  met  Colonel  North  at  that  time.   He 

17  was  planning  to  take  me  in.   There  was  a  long  wait  before  I 

18  could  see  the  President.   He  was  very,  very  busy. 

19  And  Colonel  North  couldn't  wait  any  longer  and  he 

20  departed.   And  I  went  in,  but  I  don't  think  anybody  took  me 

21  in  this  time.   I  just  started  to  go  in,  and  it  was  a  very 

22  brief  meeting,  and  we  exchanged  thank-you's  again.   And  he 


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handed  me  a  jar  of  jelly  beans  and  said  to  give  this  to  my 
daughter,  and  I  handed  him  a  book  and  said  I  had  something 
for  him  to  give  him  some  strength.   It  was  a  little 
spiritual  book  of  some  kind.   And  that  was  it. 

0    You  say  you  exchanged  thank-you's.   What  did  you 
thank  President  Reagan  for,  if  you  remember? 

A    Just  for  taking  the  time  to  see  me. 

0    Do  you  recall  what  he  thanked  you  for? 

A    Again,  nothing. 

0    Did  the  subject  of  Central  America  come  up  at  all? 

A    No. 

0    When  you  were  waiting  with  Colonel  North,  do  you 
recall  what  discussions  you  had  with  him? 

A    We  talked  about  many  surface  things;  nothing  about 
the  problems. 

0    Nothing  that  you  recall  about  the  contras  or 
N"icaragua? 

A    No. 

0    What  happened  after  you  left  the  President's 
office? 

A    It  must  have  been  dinner  time  again.   We  went  back 
to  the  hotel  and  had  dinner  again.   I  think  this  was  with 


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UNCLASSIFIED 


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Mr.  Miller,  Mr.  Channell,  and  Mr.  Conrad.   We  all  had  dinnei 
again  together. 

0    Did  Colonel  North  appear  that  evening? 

A    Not  that  evening;  no. 

0    What  was  the  subject  of  discussion  that  evening, 
if  you  can  recall? 

A    Nothing  terribly  terribly  important  as  I  can 
recall. 

0    Did  you  discuss  Nicaragua,  if  you  remember? 

A    We  must  have  touched  on  it,  of  course.   I  really 
can't  remember  specifics. 

0    Do  you  recall  any  specific  needs  of  the  contras 
being  discussed  at  that  meeting? 

A    I  would  assume  that  there  must  have  been. 

0    But  you  don't  recall  specifics? 

A    I  just  don't  recall. 

0    Did  you  have  any  further  meetings  after  dinner 
that  evening? 

A    No. 

0    How  about  the  next  day? 

A    This  is  where  I  think  the  breakfast  came  in,  the 
breakfast  with  Colonel  North.   It  was  not  the  time  before, 


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1  but  I  think  it  was  this  time. 

2  0    And  the  breakfast  you  described  before  is  the  one 

3  you  at  first  took  place  on  November  8th,  after  your  first 

4  meeting  with  the  President,  but  now  you  think  it  took  place 

5  this  time? 

6  A    I  believe  that's  correct. 

7  0    And  I  believe  we  covered  the  topics  that  were 

8  discussed.   Does  the  change  in  time  change  your  recollection 

9  of  what  was  discussed? 

10  A    Just  one  thing  we  may  have  added  to  that  now  is 

11  his  visit;  coming  up  to  visit  because  he  was  very  tired  and 

12  exhausted,  and  Mr.  Channell  had  suggested  he  might  like  to 

13  come  up  to  Greenwich  to  rest. 

14  I  do  think  we  discussed  that. 

15  0    Mrs.  Newington,  the  records  you  gave  to  us 

16  indicate  —  I  am  not  going  to  mark  this  as  exhibit  —  but 

17  indicate  on  March  27,  1986  you  made  a  contribution  of 

18  $142,000.   And  you  can  look  at  the  check  just  to  refresh 

19  your  recollection. 

20  (Document  handed  to  the  witness.) 

21  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

22  0    Was  that  the  check,  or  was  that  —  if  you 


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recall  —  the  check  that  was  targeted  for  spotter  or 
reconnaissance  planes? 

A    It  could  very  well  have  been,  but  I  am  not 
absolutely  certain. 

0    You  can't,  as  you  sit  here  today,  be  certain 
whether  or  not  that  is  the  — 

A    Not  really. 

0    Do  you  know  how  long  before  you  made  a 
contribution  for  the  planes,  you  were  first  advised  of  the 
need?  Was  this  something  they  told  you  about  and  you  kept 
in  the  back  of  your  mind  for  a  while  until  you  made  a 
contribution;  or  did  they  tell  you  about  it  and  you  turned 
around  and  made  a  contribution? 

A    I  think  they  told  me  and  shortly  thereafter  I 
contributed. 

0    Let's  move,  if  we  could,  to  Colonel  North's  visit 
to  your  home.   The  records  that  have  been  provided  to  us 
seem  to  indicate  that  that  took  place  in  early  May  of  1986. 
And  let  me  show  you  the  records. 

I  am  citing  for  that,  the  first  we  will  mark  as  a 
deposition  exhibit.  This  is  not  a  record  that  you  provided 
to  us.   Deposition  Exhibit  6  is  a  telephone  message,  written 


iCE 


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1   ^i       1  at  the  offices  of  NEPL,  dated  May  2,  1986,  that  in  the  lower 

2  left-hand  corner  includes  directions  to  your  home. 

3  (Deposition  Exhibit  No.  6 

4  identified.) 

5  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   And  then  the  calendar  we  have  from 

6  your  records  — 

7  MR.  HORGAN:   Just  for  my  information  —  this  is 

8  the  first  time  I've  seen  the  document  —  is  this  a  telephone 

9  message  to  someone  that  you  could  identify? 

10  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   The  telephone  message  appears  to  be 

11  to  Angela  from  Mrs.  Newington.   And  it's  giving  directions 

12  to  Mrs.  Newington 's  home. 

13  This  is  a  document  that  will  be  Exhibit  7  from 

14  your  files,  Mrs.  Newington. 

15  (Deposition  Exhibit  No.  7 

16  identified.) 

17  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

18  0    And  if  you  will  look  at  Saturday,  May  3rd,  and 

19  Sunday,  May  4th  —  although  the  copy  is  not  very  good  -- 

20  that  appears  to  say  North. 

21  Are  we  correct  in  our  assumption  that  Colonel 

22  North's  visit  to  your  home  took  place  on  or  about  November 


UNCUSSIFIED 

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3rd  and  4th  —  I'm  sorry,  I  mean  May  3rd  and  4th  of  1986? 

A    Yes. 

0    Can  you  tell  me  how  the  idea  for  that  visit  first 
came  about,  whose  idea  it  was? 

A    Well,  as  I  mentioned,  Mr.  Channell  having  been  to 
ray  house  —  we  have  a  pool  —  he  thought  it  might  be  a 
restful  spot  for  him  to  come  and  just  have  a  get-away.   We 
didn't  know  when  it  was  going  to  happen.   I  talked  about  it 
for  quite  a  while. 

0    How  much  notice  do  you  recall  receiving  as  to  this 
visit?  Was  this  something  that  was  planned  weeks  in 
advance? 

A    Probably  about  a  week  in  advance. 

0    Had  it  been  scheduled  on  other  occasions  and 
postponed,  or  the  first  time  it  was  scheduled  did  it 
actually  happen? 

A    No.   The  first  time  it  was  scheduled. 

0    Who  attended  the  weekend? 

A    Colonel  North,  his  wife  and  two  children, 
Mr.  Channell,  Mr.  Miller,  and  Mr.  Conrad. 

Q    Did  Mr.  Channell,  Mr.  Miller,  and  Mr.  Conrad  bring 
any  family  members,  spouses  or  friends  with  them? 


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1  A  No. 

2  0    Do  you  recall  how  each  of  those  people  traveled 

3  and  arrived  at  your  house? 

4  A    Yes.   Colonel  North  and  his  family  came  up  by 

5  plane  to  Westchester  Airport  and  I  picked  them  up  and  took 

6  them  to  my  house . 

7  Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Conrad  came  together.   I 

8  believe  they  came  up  on  their  own  airplane.   And  then 

9  Mr.  Miller  arrived  separately. 

10  0    And  you  say  Colonel  North  came  up  by  airplane. 

11  Did  he  come  up  by  commercial  air  carrier? 

12  A    I  think  it  was  a  private  plane.   I  couldn't  be 

13  absolutely  certain  about  that.   It  was  at  an  odd  hour,  and  I 

14  think  it  was  a  private  plane. 

15  0    Do  you  know  who  supplied  the  private  plane? 

16  A    No. 

17  "    0    Did  you  supply  the  private  plane? 

18  A    No. 

19  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   That's  probably  a  more  direct  way. 

20  MR.  HORGAN:   I  did  not  either. 

21  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

22  Q    Did  you  have  any  understanding  with  Colonel  North 


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or  with  Mr.  Channell  as  to  who  would  pay  for  this  weekend  -- 
expenses  and  that  sort  of  thing? 

A     I  had  no  idea. 

0    When  you  say  Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Conrad  came  up 
in  their  plane  —  I  think  that  was  the  way  you  put  it  —  do 
you  know  whether  they  came  in  a  private  plane  or  by 
commercial  carrier? 

A    No,  by  commercial.   LaGuardia. 

0    When  did  the  group  arrive?  Was  it  on  Friday  or 
was  it  on  Saturday? 

A    Very  late  Saturday  night. 

0    When  you  say  very  late  Saturday  night,  do  you 
recall  what  time? 

A    It  must  have  been  about  8  o'clock  because  we 
didn't  have  dinner  until  about  9:30  or  something. 

0    And  the  dinner,  can  you  describe  how  that  was  set 
out,  what  kind  of  dinner  it  was? 

A    Yes.   We  went  down  to  the  Homestead  Inn  which  is 
only  a  block  or  two  away  from  my  house  and  had  dinner  — 
children  and  all. 

Q    And  who  paid  for  that  dinner? 

A  I   did. 


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1   ci       1         0    Do  you  recall  how  much  the  dinner  cost  at  this 

2  point? 

3  A    Yes.   I  think  it  was  somewhere  between  three  and 

4  four  hundred  dollars. 

5  0    Did  everyone  in  the  group  stay  at  your  residence? 

6  A    Yes. 

7  0    And  they  stayed  there  Saturday  night;  is  that 

8  right? 

9  A    Yes . 

10  0    Let  me  back  up  for  a  moment. 

11  At  that  dinner  at  the  Homestead  Inn,  or  as  best 

12  you  can  recollect,  at  any  time  on  Saturday  night  were  there 

13  any  discussions  of  Nicaragua  or  the  contras? 

14  A    No. 

15  0    Let's  move  to  Sunday. 

16  Can  you  tell  me  what  the  itinerary  was  on  Sunday? 

17  A    Colonel  North  slept  till  about  noon.   The  others 

18  straggled  down  for  breakfast,  and  we  had  a  picnic  about 

19  2  o'clock,  outside. 

20  Q    Do  you  recall  Nicaragua  or  the  contras  being 

21  discussed  at  any  time  on  Sunday? 

22  A    No. 


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1  0    Was  there  a  time  at  the  picnic  on  Sunday, 

2  Mrs.  Newington,  when  Mr.  Channell  in  the  presence  of  Colonel 

3  North,  and  yourself  and  Mr.  Miller  brought  up  or  asked  a 

4  question  of  Colonel  North  about  the  contras  or  support  of 

5  the  contras? 

6  Do  you  remember  that? 

7  A    No.   I  remember  only  that  we  stayed  very  far  away 

8  from  the  subject  because  everybody  was  trying  to  take  a 

9  break  and  get  away  from  it  all. 

10  0    I  guess  I  am  trying  to  focus  on  what  may  have  been 

11  a  specific  question  addressed  by  Mr.  Channell  to  Colonel 

12  North  that  some  members  in  the  group  felt  was  rather 

13  inappropriate  in  light  of  the  agreement  that  there  would  be 

14  no  business  discussed  over  the  weekend. 

15  Do  you  recall  anybody  breaching  that  rule  at  any 

16  point? 

17  A    No. 

18  0    After  the  picnic  on  Sunday  what,  if  anything, 

19  occurred? 

20  A    The  children  went  swimming.   They  left  late 

21  afternoon. 

22  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let  me  show  you  what  has  been 


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9210    04    16 

1    i       1  marked  as  Deposition  Exhibit  8. 

2  (Deposition  Exhibit  No.  8 

3  identified.) 

4  (Document  handed  to  the  witness.) 

5  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

6  0    This  is  a  document  produced  by  your  counsel. 

7  Do  you  recognize  this  letter,  Mrs.  Newington? 

8  A    Yes,  I  do. 

9  0    Can  you  tell  me  what  it  is? 

10  A    It's  a  little  thank-you  note  from  Mrs.  North. 

11  0    And  her  name  is  Betsy. 

12  A°    Betsy . 

13  0    And  it  refers  to  the  weekend  that  they  just  had? 

14  A    Yes. 

15  0    And  the  date  on  it  is  May  12,  1986;  is  that  right? 

16  A    That's  right. 

17  0    There  is  a  reference  on  this  to  a  "Larry."   I  see 

18  it  at  —  if  you  turn  it  vertically,  you  can  see  a  reference 

19  to  a  "Larry"  here  and  I  think  it  turns  up  as  well  —  it's 

20  got  "Larry"  here.   I  think  there's  at  least  one  other 

21  reference  to  "Larry."   Let  me  look  here. 

22  I  think  if  you  look  at  the  first  paragraph  of  the 


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letter,  it  says  in  parens,  "I  think  Larry  would  have  slept 
all  day  if  Dornin  hadn't  insisted  he  get  up." 

A     That's  her  husband.   Larry.   She  refers  to  him  as 
Larry. 

0    It  threw  me  for  a  bit  of  a  loop. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Who  refers  to  whom  as  Larry? 
THE  WITNESS:   Betsy  refers  to  her  husband  as 
Larry. 

BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    So  that  was  a  reference  that  you  —  let  me  put  it 
this  way.   You  did  not  understand  that  to  be  a  code  name  for 
Colonel  North? 
A    No. 

0    Do  you  know  if  that's  his  middle  name? 
A    Yeah,  I  think  it  is.   I'm  not  absolutely  sure,  but 
it  must  be. 

MR.  REARDON:   Oliver  L. 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    And  Dornin  is  one  of  their  children? 
A    Yes. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Why  don't  we  take  a  brief  break  and 
that  will  allow  me  to  sort  through  this  stuff. 


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1  (Brief    recess.) 

2  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Why  don't  we  go  back  on  the  record? 

3  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

4  0    Mrs.  Newington,  let  me  ask  you  a  little  bit  about 

5  the  transition  in  Western  Goals  when  Mr.  Channell  took  over 

6  the  organization. 

7  Am  I  correct  that  you  were,  if  not  instrumental, 
at  least  part  of  the  process  of  persuading  Mr.  Channell  to 

9  take  on  Western  Goals? 

10  A  ■   That's  right. 

11  0    Can  you  tell  me,  did  you  have  some  kind  of 

12  argreement  or  arrangement  with  him  or  understanding  as  to 

13  what  you  might  do  if  he  did  in  fact  take  on  Western  Goals? 

14  A    Yes.   He  asked  if  I  would  stick  with  it  for  about 

15  a  year  until  he  got  it  going,  and  I  said  I  would.   They  had 

16  debts  to  pay  off  and  I  helped  them  with  that.   And  that's 

17  about  it. 

18  0    And  for  that  year,  during  which  you  promised  to 

19  stick  with  it,  did  they  provide  you  with  —  did  they  notify 

20  you  of  the  amounts  of  money  they  needed  to  continue  the 

21  project? 

22  A    Yes. 


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1  0    And  did  you  do  your  best  to  fulfill  the 

2  organization's  needs? 

3  A    Yes. 

4  0    Did  you  ever  understand  Western  Goals  to  have  a 

5  role  in  or  relationship  to  the  Nicaraguan  contra  issue? 

6  A    No. 

7  0    So  to  the  extent  that  there  were  discussions  of 

8  the  needs  of  the  contras  or  the  situation  in  Nicaragua, 

9  those  would  have  been  centered  on  NEPL  or  Mr.  Channell's 

10  other  organizations  as  opposed  to  Western  Goals? 

11  A    That's  correct. 

12  0    And  to  the  extent  that  your  money  was  contributed 

13  to  Western  Goals,  you  understood  that  money  to  be  used  for 

14  something  other  than  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance? 

15  A    Yes. 

16  0    Did  Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Conrad  visit  your  home  in 

17  Connecticut? 

18  A    Yes. 

19  0    Can  you  tell  me  on  what  occasions,  not  necessarily 

20  dates,  but  if  you  can  put  it  in  any  kind  of  context  that 

21  would  be  helpful. 

22  A    It's  almost  impossible  to.   I  would  just  be 


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1    i       1  guessing. 

2  0    Can  you  tell  me  how  many  times  they  came,  to  the 

3  best  of  your  recollection,  setting  aside  the  time  they  came 

4  with  Colonel  North? 

5  A    Probably  about  twice  together,  and  Mr.  Channell 

6  maybe  once  or  twice  by  himself. 

7  0    What  were  the  purposes  of  those  visits,  as  best 

8  you  can  recall? 

9  A    To  show  me  ads;  to  take  a  break.   Just  to  keep  my 

10  interest  up. 

11  0    In  the  course  of  those  visits  to  your  home,  did 

12  Mr.  Channell  ever  discuss  Nicaragua  with  yoii  or  the  contras? 

13  A    Not  really. 

14  MR.  HORGAN:   Are  you  talking  about  the  ones  with 

15  Mr.  Conrad  at  the  moment? 

16  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

17  0    Yes.   We  will  focus  on  the  ones  with  Mr.  Conrad. 

18  When  Mr.  Channell  came  with  Mr.  Conrad,  what  were 

19  the  purposes  of  those  visits? 

20  A    That  was  really  in  reference  to  Western  Goals. 

21  0    How  about  when  Mr.  Channell  came  by  himself?   Do 

22  you  recall  him  discussing  Nicaragua? 


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1  A    Only  in  showing  me  the  ads  they  were  putting  in, 

2  the  lobbying  situation;  yes. 

3  0    The  records  you  have  produced  for  us, 

4  Mrs.  Newington,  show  a  series  of  contributions  in  the  first 

5  part  of  1985  totaling  approximately  a  little  over  $200,000 

6  to  a  ACTSEF,  American  Conservative  Trust  State  Election 

7  Fund. 

8  The  records  also  show  acknowledgments  of  those 

9  contributions  received  from  the  National  Endowment  for  the 

10  Preservation  of  Liberty. 

11  Let  me  show  you  an  example.   My  question  may 

12  become  clear  in  a  moment.   I  don't  think  it's  necessary  to 

13  mark  all  these  as  exhibits  because  my  question  is  really  one 

14  of  explanation,  not  of  identification. 

15  But  if  you  compare  some  of  the  records  that  you 

16  produced  to  us,  you  have,  for  example,  a  check  —  let  me  see 

17  if  I  can  find  one. 

18  MR.  MORGAN:   January  14  or  15,  $33,800. 

19  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH; 

20  Q    Here's  one,  for  example.   Let's  do  this  one.   We 

21  have  a  check  made  to  the  American  Conservative  Trust, 

22  January  14,  1985,  in  the  amount  of  $33,800.   And  then  we 


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]   :i       1  have  an  acknowledgment  letter  dated  February  28,  1986, 

2  approximately  a  year  later  from  the  National  Endowment  for 

3  the  Preservation  of  Liberty,  acknowledging  33,800  to  the 

4  National  Endowment. 

5  Just  so  you  are  with  me  here,  there  are  a  series 

6  of  acknowledgment  letters,  all  dated  February  28,  1986,  all 

7  of  which  acknowledge  gifts  to  the  National  Endowment, 

8  including  a  number  of  gifts  where  the  checks  were  actually 

9  written  to  the  American  Conservative  Trust  State  Election 

10  Fund. 

11  Do  you  know,  first  of  all,  why  these 

12  acknowledgments  were  sent  and,  secondly,  why  they  were 

13  acknowledged  as  gifts  to  the  National  Endowment  when  it 

14  would  appear  that  the  checks  were  originally  written  to  the 

15  American  Conservative  Trust  State  Election  Fund? 

16  A    I  don't  know  why.   I  don't  know. 

17  0    Did  you  request  the  acknowledgments  from  NEPL? 

18  A    Yes,  I  did. 

19  0    Did  you  do  that  as  a  matter  of  course  or  routine, 

20  or  did  you  specifically  at  some  time  request  NEPL  to  provide 

21  you  with  acknowledgments? 

22  A    I  had  asked  them  every  time  if  they  would.   I 


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1  think  they  just  decided  to  lump  them  all  together,  you  know. 

2  0    The  acknowledgments  that  we  have  been  examining 

3  are  dated  in  some  cases  a  year  or  more  after  the  actual 

4  contributions  were  made.   And  there's  a  whole  series  of  them 

5  dated  February  28th. 

6  Did  you  request  them  for  tax  purposes  in  1986,  do 

7  you  know? 

8  A    There  was  no  particular  reason,  except  I  knew  I 

9  should  have  them  for  tax  purposes. 

10  0    On  matters  like  this,  did  you  deal  directly  with 

11  the  people  at  NEPL  or  did  your  accountants  —  did  you  have 

12  accountants  or  people  who  might  have  made  requests  on  your 

13  behalf? 

14  A    No.   I  dealt  directly. 

15  0    And  as  you  sit  here  today,  do  you  have  any 

16  recollection  at  all  as  to  why  a  contribution  might  have  been 

17  made  to  ACTSEF  and  an  acknowledgment  might  have  been 

18  received  from  them? 

19  A    I  don't  know. 

20  MR.  HORGAN:   Mr.  McGough,  I  would  like  the  record 

21  to  indicate  that  you  are  correct  that  the  payees  on  all  the 

22  checks  in  question  here  was  the  ACTSEF,  and  although  the 


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1  acknowledgments  dated  February  28,  1986  came  from  NEPL, 

2  Mrs.  Newington  deducted  none  of  these  contributions  on  her 

3  federal  or  state  tax  returns. 

4  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   That  was  going  to  be  really  my  next 

5  line  of  inquiry  was  looking  at  your  tax  returns, 

6  Mrs.  Newington. 

7  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

8  0    There  were  some  contributions  made  to  NEPL  and 

9  other  Channell-related  organizations  that  you  deducted  and 

10  some  contributions  that  you  did  not  deduct,  including  a 

11  number  of  the  contributions  which  went  in  on  ACTSEF  checks 

12  and  were  acknowledged  on  NEPL  as  contributions  to  NEPL. 

13  Can  you  explain  to  me  why  you  drew  that 

14  distinction,  why  you  deducted  some  of  these  matters  but  not 

15  others? 

16  A    I  knew  that  the  —  I  was  sure  of  the  National 

17  Endowment  being  tax  deductible.   The  others  I  was  not 

18  totally  sure  of.   And  I  didn't  need  to  take  deductions;  I've 

19  got  such  a  big  carryover  anyhow.   So  I  just  didn't  put  them 

20  in  as  deductions. 

21  0    As  to  your  contributions  to  the  National 

22  Endowment,  do  you  know  if  there  were  any  places  where  you 


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'.i       1  made  contributions  to  the  National  Endowment  and  then 

2  decided  not  to  deduct  that  amount  from  your  income  tax? 

3  A     Yes.   There  could  have  been  some  that  I  have  not 

4  deducted. 

5  0    And  why  would  you  have  not  deducted  those? 

6  A    Well,  as  I  say,  such  a  big  carryover,  it's  almost 

7  foolish  to  put  it  in. 

8  0    But  was  there  anything  about  specific 

9  contributions  to  NEPL  that  you  viewed  as  deductible  or  not 

10  deductible? 

11  MR.  MORGAN:   Can  I  have  the  last  question  read 

12  back? 

13  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Sure.   I'll  repeat  it. 

14  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

15  0    Was  there  anything  about  specific  contributions  to 

16  NEPL  that  you  viewed  as  making  them  either  deductible  or 

17  non-deductible?  Did  you  distinguish  among  your 

18  contributions  to  NEPL  in  any  way? 

19  A     No. 

20  0    So  that  it  wasn't  a  situation  where  some  of  the 

21  contributions  you  were  making  to  NEPL  you  considered 

22  deductible  because  they  were  made  for  one  purpose,  whereas 


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other  contributions  were  made  for  other  purposes  and  were 
not  deductible? 
A    No. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Perhaps  to  clarify  the  record,  one  of 
your  earlier  questions  in  effect  assumed,  the  way  you 
phrased  it,  that  she  made  a  decision  not  to  deduct  some  of 
the  NEPL  contributions,  and  I  think  her  answer  was  in  the 
affirmative.   But  I  think  her  subsequent  testimony  has 
indicated  that  she  did  not  make  a  decision  to  do  so  as 
such. 

You  may  wish  to  inquire. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   I  guess  my  question  was  —  and  I 
guess  I  would  have  to  check  the  records  —  but  my  question 
was  whether  there  were  contributions  made  to  NEPL,  checks 
perhaps  or  stock  given  to  NEPL,  that  were  not  reflected  as 
deductions  on  her  tax  returns. 

MR.  HORGAN:   That  is  correct.   The  records  reflect 
that. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Perhaps  decision  was  inartful.   I 
guess  what  I  was  trying  to  illustrate  was  there  were  in  fact 
some  contributions  made  to  NEPL  that  were  deducted  and  some 
contributions  made  to  NEPL  that  were  not  deducted. 


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1  MR.  MORGAN:   That  is  correct. 

2  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   The  records  bear  that  out. 

3  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   My  next  question  is  why  the 

4  distinction?   And  Mrs.  Newington  explained  she  does-n '  t  need 

5  the  loss  carryover,  but  I  was  still  interested  in  why  she 

6  would  deduct  in  some  cases  and  not  deduct  in  others;  why  she 

7  made  a  distinction. 

8  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

9  0    Do  you  feel  the  record  is  clear  on  that? 

10  A    I  can't  think  of  any  particular  reason,  except 

11  perhaps  tax-wise  is  all. 

12  MR.  HORGAN:   Just  one  moment. 

13  (Counsel  for  the  witness  confer.) 

14  MR.  HORGAN:   In  the  course  of  preparing  for  this 

15  deposition  and  other  inquiries,  I  had  occasion  to  look  at 

16  the  records  and  talk  with  Mrs.  Newington  about  the  subject 

17  matter  of  your  question,  and  I  think  it  was  inadvertent  that 

18  some  —  as  opposed  to  an  affirmative  decision  or  a  negative 

19  decision  as  opposed  to  a  decision,  I  think  it  was 

20  inadvertent  that  certain  contributions  to  NEPL  were  not 

21  deducted  or  not  reported  to  her  accountant  for  purposes  of 
22 


taking  a  deduction. 


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2   .i       1  Mrs.  Newington  did  not  --  kept  a  folder  of  her 

2  separate  contributions,  and  I  gather  on  an  annual  basis 

3  provided  information  to  her  accountant. 

4  Just  one  moment. 

5  (Counsel  for  the  witness  confer.) 

6  MR.  HORGAN:   Off  the  record. 

7  MR,  MC  GOUGH:   Let  me  finish  up. 

8  MR.  HORGAN:   This  is  on  the  same  subject  of  who 

9  made  what  decision. 

10  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Why  don't  you  jot  a  note  and  then 

11  do  it  at  the  end  because  I  just  have  a  couple  of  questions. 

12  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

13  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

14  0    Mrs.  Newington,  did  you  ever  hear  a  reference  by 

15  Mr.  Channell  or  anyone  associated  with  him  to  the  Toys 

16  Project  or  Project  for  Toys? 

17  A    No. 

18  0    Were  you  ever  solicited  or  asl^ed  to  contribute  to 

19  an  account  to  provide  toys  —  to  provide  toys  to  the 

20  children  of  the  Nicaraguan  freedom  fighters? 

21  A    No. 

22  Q    Did  anyone  ever  as)c  you  to  refer  to  Colonel  North 


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by  another  name? 

A    Yes. 

0    In  what  context  did  that  arise? 

A    Green.   Mr.  Green. 

0    Who  asked  you  to  do  that? 

A    Mr.  Channell. 

0    Do  you  recall  when  he  asked  you  to  do  that?   When 
was  the  first  time  he  raised  that  with  you? 

A  He  never  mentioned  it,  except  he  would  use  the 
word,  and  so  I  just  gathered  that  that's  what  they  would 
like  to  use  when  talking  on  the  phone  or  something. 

0    When  you  mentioned  or  spoke  of  Colonel  North  with 
Mr.  Channell,  did  you  also  use  the  name  Mr.  Green? 

A    I  always  avoided  it  somehow. 

0    You  mean  you  avoided  trying  to  refer  to  him  by  any 
name  at  all? 

A    Yes. 

0    Did  you  ever  ask  Mr.  Channell  why  you  were  using  a 
code  name  for  Mr.  North? 

A    No. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Back  on  the  record. 


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1  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

2  Q    Were  you  aware  of  any  other  code  names  that  were 

3  being  used  by  the  NEPL  people? 

4  A     No. 

5  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   I  think  that's  all  I  have. 

6  Why  don't  you  go  ahead,  before  Tom  and  Ken  clean 

7  up  a  little  bit,  why  don't  you  go  ahead  and  ask  your 

8  questions? 

9  EXAMINATION 

10  BY  MR.  HORGAN: 

11  0    Mrs.  Newington,  when  you  found  yourself  giving  to 

12  charitable  organizations,  did  you  inquire,  either  orally  or 

13  by  letter,  as  to  their  tax-exempt  status  from  time  to  time? 

14  A    Yes,  I  did. 

15  0    And  did  your  donee  organizations  occasionally 

16  provide  you  with  letters,  copies  of  letters  from  the  IRS 

17  relating  to  their  tax  status? 

18  A    Yes. 

19  0    And  did  Mr.  Channell  do  so  on  a  number  of 

20  occasions? 

21  A    Yes. 

22  Q    Have  you  produced,  included  among  the  documents 


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that  we  produced  in  the  response  to  the  subpoena  and  the 
court  immunity  orders,  those  letters  which  you  did  receive 
from  Mr.  Channell  relating  to  the  tax  status  of  his 
organizations? 

A    Yes. 

0    Can  you  tell  us  from  your  memory  how  it  was  that 
you  learned  what  you  should  do  in  making  tax-deductible 
gifts;  from  whom  you  learned  this  over  the  years? 

A    That  was  from  my  husband,  because  this  had  been  a 
pattern  that  we  had  followed  for  many  years. 

0    And  that  pattern  was  to  do  what? 

A    Well,  to  always  get  a  support  letter  of  the  tax 
deductibility  of  whatever  you  give  to. 

0    On  an  annual  basis,  did  you  make  available  what 
records  you  had  to  your  accountant  in  response  to  his 
inquiries? 

A    Yes . 

(Counsel  for  the  witness  confer.) 
BY  MR.  HORGAN: 

0  And  was  the  same  general  procedure  followed  by  you 
with  respect  to  the  donations  over  the  recent  years  that  you 
made  to  other  non-Channell  organizations? 


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1  A    Say  that  again,  please. 

2  0    Did  you  follow  the  same  procedures  in  recent  years 

3  with  respect  to  non-Channell  organizations? 

4  A    Oh,  yes. 

5  0    You  mentioned  your  charitable  carry  forwards.   I 

6  take  it,  then,  that  over  recent  years  you  made  substantial 

7  other  charitable  donations  having  nothing  whatever  to  do 

8  with  Mr.  Channell  or  any  of  his  organizations? 

9  A    That's  correct. 

10  MR.  MORGAN:   No  further  questions. 

11  EXAMINATION 

12  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

13  0    Mrs.  Newington,  I  have  a  few  questions.   You  have 

14  testified  about  contributions  that  you've  made  to  various  of 

15  Mr.  Channell' s  organizations.   And  as  to  some  of  those 

16  organizations  you  took  tax  deductions,  and  others  you  did 

17  not;  is  that  correct? 

18  A    That's  correct. 

19  0    In  your  discussions  with  Mr.  Channell  when  he 

20  would  call  you  seeking  a  contribution,  he  would  specify 

21  which  organization  he  would  like  the  contribution  to  go  to; 

22  is  that  correct? 


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1       ^i  1  A  That's    right. 

2  0    Did  you  ever  authorize  Mr.  Channell  in  any  way  to 

3  transfer  the  contribution  you  had  made  to  one  of  his 

4  organizations  to  another  of  his  organizations? 

5  A    No. 
0    You  have  spoken  this  morning  about  discussions 

with  Mr.  Channell  and  Colonel  North  about  a  contribution 

8  that  was  to  be  used  for  construction  of  an  airfield  and  the 

9  purchase  of  a  reconnaissance  plane;  is  that  correct? 

10  A    That's  correct. 

11  0    Were  you  ever  told  by  Colonel  North  that  your 

12  contribution  was  used  for  that  purpose? 

13  A    Never  specifically;  no. 

14  0    What  was  said  by  Colonel  North  with  regard  to 

15  that? 

16  A    Oddly  enough,  I  don't  think  I  ever  heard  that  this 

17  amount  was  used  for  that.   I  don't  think  I  ever  heard  that. 

18  I  just  assumed  that  whatever  I  gave  went  where  it  went. 

19  0    Did  Mr.  Channell  ever  say  anything  about  the  use 

20  of  those  contributions? 

21  A    No;  except  for  things,  particular  ads  in  papers  or 

22  television  spots  or  something. 


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1   ci       1         0    Do  you  know  if  the  reconnaissance  plane  was  ever 

2  purchased? 

3  A    I  have  no  way  of  being  absolutely  certain;  no. 

4  0    Did  anyone  ever  give  any  indication  to  you  that  it 

5  was  purchased? 

6  A    No. 

7  0    Did  anyone  ever  give  any  indication  to  you  that 

8  there  was  any  money  spent  on  an  airfield? 

9  A    No,  not  really. 

10  0    Mrs.  Newington,  were  there  any  funds  transferred 

11  to  you  in  any  way  which  were  then  used  for  you  to  make  a 

12  contribution  to  one  of  Mr.  Channell's  organizations? 

13  A    No. 

14  0    Was  there  ever  any  discussion  of  any  transfer  of 

15  that  sort? 

16  A    No. 

17  0    You  mentioned  that  you  requested  from 

18  Mr.  Channell,  I  believe,  some  documentation  as  to  the 

19  tax-exempt  status  of  certain  of  his  organizations,  and  you 

20  received  such  documentation. 

21  Did  you  have  any  other  communications  with 

22  Mr.  Channell  or  with  anyone  in  his  organization  about  the 


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tax  deductibility  of  your  contributions? 
A    No. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Just  a  moment. 
(Counsel  confers  with  the  witness.) 
MR.  HORGAN:   Your  question,  I  believe/  was  whether 
there  was  --  in  effect,  your  question  was  any  other 
communications  besides  the  letters  that  have  been  referred 
to  and  which  we  produced,  and  I  think  the  witness  could  add 
to  her  answer. 

THE  WITNESS:   Yes.   Telephone  calls,  discussions 
on  the  telephone. 

BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0    Were  these  discussions  with  Mr.  Channell? 
A    Yes. 

0    What  did  he  tell  you  in  these  discussions? 
A    Well,  for  instance,  if  I  asked  him  for  the 
501(c)(3)  of  NEPL,  he  would  say  "Certainly."   And  I  received 
it.   I  was  sent  it  and  I  received  it.   Nothing  much  more 
than  that. 

I  mean  if  I  requested  it  on  the  phone,  he  would 
see  that  I  received  it. 

0    Was  there  any  discussion  with  Mr.  Channell  as  to 


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1   ,i       1  the  tax  deductibility  of  any  particular  contribution  that 

2  you  were  making? 

3  A    No. 

4  0    Did  he  ever  tell  you  that  any  of  your 

5  contributions  could  not  be  deducted  on  your  tax  returns? 

6  A    Yes.   There  was  something  like  the  Sentinel.   A 

7  few  of  the  state  election  funds  were  not  deductible.   He 

8  made  me  aware  of  that. 

9  0    Did  you  discuss  with  Mr.  Channell  the 

10  deductibility  of  the  contributions  for  the  airfield  and  the 

11  reconnaissance  plane? 

12  A    No,  because  it  was  given  to  —  I  mean  the 

13  contribution  was  given  to  the  NEPL,  and  that's  all  that  it 

14  meant  to  me. 

15  0    What  was  your  conclusion  from  the  fact  that  it  was 

16  given  to  NEPL  about  the  tax  deductibility? 

17  A    Well,  I  assumed  that  it  was  definitely  tax 

18  deductible.   I  have  the  501(c)(3)  letter. 

19  0    Did  he  instruct  you  to  make  the  contribution  for 

20  these  purposes  to  NEPL? 

21  A    Yes. 

22  Q    Can  you  identify,  Mrs.  Newington,  the  particular 


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1  contributions  that  you  made  for  these  purposes?   That  is, 

2  the  construction  of  the  airfield  and  the  reconnaissance 

3  plane. 

4  A    I  really  can't  pinpoint,  you  know,  this  check  went 

5  for  that.   It's  very  hard  to  do. 

6  0    In  your  answers  to  Mr.  McGough's  questions,  you 

7  referred  to  a  number  of  meetings  with  Mr.  Channell  and 

8  Colonel  North,  and  there  were  references  during  certain  of 

9  these  meetings  to  weapons  for  the  Resistance  in  Nicaragua. 

10  And  I  believe  at  the  beginning  of  the  deposition, 

11  you  mentioned  that  that  was  one  of  the  subjects  that  had 

12  come  up. 

13  Focusing  on  that  particular  area  of  discussions,  I 

14  would  like  to  go  back  and  review  the  meetings,  beginning 

15  with  your  first  recollection  of  discussion  of  weapons  of  any 

16  sort  with  Mr.  Channell  or  Colonel  North. 

17  What  was  the  first  occasion? 

18  A    The  briefing  with  Colonel  North. 

19  0    When  was  that? 

20  A    That  was  June  25th,  I  think. 

21  0    June  of  1985  briefing? 

22  A    Uh-huh. 


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1   ci       1  0  And  what  did  he  say  in  that  briefing  about 

2  weapons? 

3  A  Only  to  mention  the  name,  that  they  needed 

4  weapons;  that  it  was  a  very  important  part  of  their 

5  equipment. 

6  0  Did  he  specify  any  types  of  weapons? 

7  A  Not  to  me;  no. 

8  0  Did  he  mention  ammunition? 

9  A  No. 

10  0  Grenades? 

11  A  No. 

12  0  Mines? 

13  A  No. 

14  0  Did  he  mention  any  dollar  amount  needed  to 

15  purchase  weapons? 

16  A  No. 

17  0  After  the  briefing  with  Colonel  North,  you  met 

18  with  Mr.  Channell;  is  that  correct? 

19  A  Yes. 

20  0  Now,  did  Mr.  Channell  say  anything  about  weapons 

21  following  that  briefing? 

22  A    No.   You  mean  to  ask  me  for  money  for  weapons  or 


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something? 

0    Or  was  there  any  reference  to  the  briefing  and 
Colonel  North's  reference  to  weapon^? 

A  No,  not  particularly.  There  was  reference  to  the 
briefing  because  we  talked  about  what  was  said,  but  nothing 
pertaining  particularly  to  weapons. 

0    When  was  the  next  occasion  the  weapons  were 
mentioned  either  by  Mr.  Channell  or  Colonel  North? 

A    It  never  was  to  me  particularly. 

MR.  HORGAN:   I  think  a  clarification  would  be  that 
she  has  testified  earlier  today  that  at  various  times  during 
these  solicitations  made  by  Mr.  Channell,  the  subject  of 
equipment,  supplies,  or  food  and  weapons  would  be  included 
in  that  list.   And  I  think  it  was  mentioned  on  more  than  one 
occasion  by  Mr.  Channell,  and  that  during  various  of  the 
solicitations  it  may  have  been  mentioned. 

So  when  you  say  "never,"  it's  a  question  of  never 
saying  never.   I  think  it  did  come  up  on  more  than  one 
occasion  following  the  initial  briefing.   I  think  some  of 
her  testimony  earlier  today  may  have  referred  to  that. 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

Q    Other  than  the  references  that  you  made  earlier 


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1  today  to  discussion  of  weapons,  Mrs.  Newington,  can  you 

2  recall  any  other  discussion? 

3  A    No. 

4  0    Mrs.  Newington,  Mr.  McGough  asked  you  several 

5  questions  about  the  Western  Goals  organization  and  you  had 

6  been  an  active  supporter  of  that  for  a  number  of  years;  is 

7  that  correct? 

8  A    That's  correct. 

9  0    Now,  the  Executive  Director  of  that  organization, 

10  or  the  person  in  charge  of  the  organization  had  been  a  woman 

11  named  Linda  Guell;  had  it  not? 

12  A    That's  correct. 

13  0    Did  she  continue  with  the  organization  after 

14  Mr.  Channell  assumed  control  of  it? 

15  A    Yes,  for  a  very  brief  time. 

16  0    And  then  was  she  replaced,  or  did  she  resign  or 

17  what? 

18  A    She  resigned,  and  she  was  not  replaced  as  far  as  I 

19  know. 

20  0    Did  she  start  another  organization? 

21  A    No.   She  just  went  to  another  job. 

22  0    Have  you  had  any  contact  with  Linda  Guell  since 


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1  she  left  Western  Goals? 

2  A    Well,  in  the  beginning  when  she  left,  she  would 

3  keep  in  contact  with  me;  yes. 

4  0    What  was  the  nature  of  that  contact? 

5  A    We  had  been  friends,  you  see,  for  a  long  time 

6  because  of  Congressman  MacDonald.   So  it  was  just  a  friendly 

7  basis  to  keep  me  informed  as  to  what  her  problems  were  and 

8  what  she  was  about  to  do,  and  her  resigning  from  Western 

9  Goals  when  Mr.  Channell  had  it. 

10  0    Did  she  comment  in  these  conversations  on 

11  Mr.  Channell? 

12  A    Yes.   She  was  not  happy  to  be  working  for  him. 

13  0    What  did  she  say? 

14  A    That  she  had  been  relegated  to  the  job,  more  or 

15  less,  of  a  secretary  and  she  had  not  been  used  to  that.   She 

16  just  wasn't  happy. 

17  ■    0    Did  she  have  any  specific  criticisms  about  how 

18  Mr.  Channell  was  running  the  organizations? 

19  A    No.   Not  specifically.   She  was  just  not  pleased 

20  with  his  attitude  to  her.   That's  all. 

21  0    Other  than  treating  her  like  a  secretary,  what 

22  examples  did  she  give? 


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1  A    I  don't  think  there  were  any  others.   That  was  the 

2  main  thing  that  she  really  was  upset  about. 

3  0    When  was  the  last  time  you  spoke  with  Linda  Guell? 

4  A    Several  months  ago. 

5  0    Was  it  in  1987? 

6  A    Yes.   I  think  I  had  a  chat  with  her  in  the 

7  beginning  of  '87. 

8  0    When  was  the  last  time  you  spoke  with 

9  Mr.  Channell? 

10  A    The  visit  in  New  York  in  '87. 

11  (Counsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 

12  THE  WITNESS:   Yes.   Phone  calls  and  other  matters 

13  always  on  Western  Goals.   Western  Goals  was  starting  a  new 

14  project  and  he  would  call  me  particularly  about  that. 

15  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

16  0    When  was  the  last  time  you  spoke  with  him  on  the 

17  telephone? 

18  A    It  must  have  been  probably  March. 

19  0    And  the  last  time  you  met  with  him  face  to  face 

20  was  when? 

21  A    I  think  that  was  early  March. 

22  (Counsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 


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BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0    And  did  these  meetings  relate  to  a  new  fundraising 
project? 

A    Yes. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Meeting,  singular. 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0    Meeting,  singular.   The  meeting  and  telephone 
conversation  or  conversations. 

Did  he  say  anything  about  the  operations  of  NEPL 
and  the  fundraising  he  had  done  with  respect  to  Nicaragua? 
A    Not  to  me;  no. 

0    Have  you  spoken  with  Mr.  Channell's  attorneys? 
A    No. 

MR.  HORGAN:   At  what  point  in  time  does  your 
question  go  to? 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Let's  say  any  time  in  the  last  three 
years. 

(Coynsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 
MR.  HORGAN:   Very  recently,  the  same  day  that 
Mr.  Channell  pleaded  guilty  in  court,  Mrs.  Newington 
received  a  telephone  call  from  Alexia  Morrison.   Pursuant  to 


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1  my  suggestion,  Mrs.  Newington  simply  referred  Ms.  Morrison 

2  to  me  and  I  then  received  a  telephone  call  from 

3  Ms.  Morrison;  simply  advised  me  so  that  I  would  learn  first 

4  from  her  rather  than  from  the  press  of  his  guilty  plea. 

5  And  I  believe  that  the  only  conversation 

6  Mrs.  Newington  had  was  a  very  brief  one  from  Mr.  Channel's 

7  lawyer  where  she  essentially  referred  Ms.  Morrison  to  me. 

8  That  would  have  been  the  day  that  he  made  his  plea. 

9  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

10  0    Mrs.  Newington,  other  than  this  call  that  has  been 

11  described  on  the  day  of  Mr.  Channell's  plea,  have  you  had 

12  any  other  meeting  or  telephone  conversation  or  communication 

13  of  any  sort  with  Mr.  Channell's  attorney  during  the  last 

14  three  years? 

15  A    No. 

16  0    When  was  the  last  time  you  had  any  communication 

17  with  Colonel  North? 

18  A    The  visit  in  May. 

19  MR.  MORGAN:   Do  you  remember  anything  else? 

20  THE  WITNESS:   Actually  I  don't. 

21  MR.  HORGAN:   Just  a  moment. 

22  (Counsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 


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22 


MR.  HORGAN:   I  reminded  the  witness  that  we  have 
produced  at  your  request,  pursuant  to  the  subpoena,  her 
telephone  bills  that  included  some  references  to  calls 
placed  to  Colonel  North's  office  from  her  residence.   And  I 
believe  Mrs.  Newington  did  have  occasion  --  you  may  ask  her 
if  you  would  care  to  —  to  speak  with  Colonel  North  on  the 
telephone  since  the  last  time  that  she  saw  him,  which  was 
the  May  '86  visit. 

BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

0    Have  you  spoken  with  Colonel  North  on  the 
telephone  since  that  visit,  Mrs.  Newington? 

A    Yes. 

0    On  how  many  occasions? 

A    Twice. 

0    When  was  the  first  occasion? 

A    I  don't  remember  the  exact  time,  but  I  know  that  I 
spoke  to  his  wife.   That  was  one  call.   I  actually  hadn't 
spoken  to  him;  I  spoke  with  her. 

And  the  second  call,  I  guess,  was  speaking  to 
him. 

0    The  call  with  his  wife  —  was  that  call  before  or 
after  Colonel  North  resigned? 


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1   .i       1         A    After. 

2  Q    And  the  call  with  Colonel  North,  was  that  before 

3  or  after  he  resigned? 

4  A    After. 

5  Q    Now,  the  call  with  Colonel  North,  what  did  he  say 

6  to  you  in  that  call? 

7  A    He  said  that  —  he  just  mentioned^,  how  it  was  the 

8  first  time  at  least  he  was  able  to  fix  his  roof  on  the  house 

9  and  have  a  little  —  rather  refreshing  for  him  to  have  this 

10  time  off,  and  that  he  was  hopeful  that  everything  would  turn 

11  out  all  right. 

12  0    You  called  him;  is  that  correct? 

13  A    Yes. 

14  0    Did  anyone  suggest  that  you  call  him? 

15  A    Yes. 

16  0    Who? 

17  A    Mr.  Channell. 

18  0    Did  he  give  a  reason  why  you  should  call  him? 

19  A    Just  to  give  him  some  support  at  this  particular 

20  time.   Moral  support. 

21  0    And  did  you  call  him  at  his  home? 

22  A    Yes.   Well,  I  called  his  home  to  speak  to  Betsy; 


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1   u       1  the  second  one  was  to  his  office.   I  spoke  to  him  at  his 

2  office. 

3  0    In  this  call  with  Colonel  North,  was  there  any 

4  discussion  about  any  of  your  contributions? 

5  A    No. 

6  0    Was  there  any  discussion  about  Nicaragua  or  the 

7  Resistance? 

8  j       A    No. 

9  0    In  the  second  call  with  his  wife,  how  would  you 

10  describe  that  call?  Was  it  a  social  call? 

11  A    A  social  call. 

12  MR.  REARDON:   Pardon  me.   Wasn't  that  the  first 

13  call? 

14  THE  WITNESS:   The  first  was  to  her;  yes. 

15  MR.  FRY/MAN:   In  chronological  order,  the  call  to 

16  the  wife  was  first  and  then  followed  up  with  a  call  to  the 

17  office. 

18  THE  WITNESS:   (Nods  in  the  affirmative.) 

19  MR.  MORGAN:   Could  I  ask  just  one  simple 

20  clarifying  question? 

21  Did  you  place  the  call  to  speak  to  Mrs.  North  or 

22  to  Colonel  North?   I  gather  you  spoke  to  Mrs.  North,  but  did 


UNCLASSIFIED 

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101 

1  you  call,  trying  to  reach  — 

2  THE  WITNESS:   Yes.   Trying  to  reach  him,  and  he 

3  was  not  home.   And  so  I  spoke  with  her. 

4  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

5  0    What  did  she  say  in  your  call  with  her? 

6  A    Naturally,  she  was  very  disturbed.   She,  too,  felt 

7  that  things  would  come  all  right. 

8  0    Have  you  made  any  contribution  to  a  defense  fund 

9  for  Colonel  North? 

10  A    No. 

11  MR.  FRYMAN:   Mrs.  Newington,  I  have  no  further 

12  questions.   Thank  you  very  much. 

13  Mr.  Buck  may  have  a  few  questions. 

14  MR.  BUCK:   Mrs.  Newington,  I  have  no  questions.   I 

15  just  want  to  thank  you  very  much  for  coming  here  today. 

16  FURTHER  EXAMINATION 

17  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

18  0    Let  me,  at  the  risk  of  spoiling  everything,  let  me 

19  just  cover  two  other  letters  to  get  them  identified  and  find 

20  out  what  the  context  was  before  we  depart  here.   And  we  will 

21  mark  them  as  the  final  exhibits.   I  will  give  them  both  to 

22  you  and  try  to  do  them  together. 


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102 


(Deposition  Exhibit  Nos .  9 
and  10  identified.) 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    Mrs.  Newington,  I  show  you  what  have  been  marked 
as  Exhibits  9  and  10,  letters  of  July  11,  1985  and 
October  6,  1985  to  you  from  Adolfo  Calero,  which  were 
supplied  by  document  production. 

Do  you  recognize  these  letters? 
A    Yes,  I  do. 

0  •   Did  you  in  fact  receive  them  from  Mr.  Calero? 
A    Yes,  I  did. 

0    The  July  11th  letter  refers  to  a  trip  to  New  York 
by  Mr.  Calero  and  also  gratitude  to  Spitz  Channell  for  an 
opportunity  to  get  to  know  you. 

Did  you  meet  with  Mr.  Calero  in  New  York? 
A    Yes,  I  did. 

0    What  was  the  purpose  of  that  meeting? 
A    I  believe  Mr.  Channell  again  arranged  this 
meeting.   I  think  that  he  just  wanted  me  to  be  brought 
further  into  the  Nicargaun  picture  and  have  direct 
contact  with  the  man  who  was  running  the  operations 
down  there. 

There  was  no  solicitation  of  funds  at  that  time. 


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LftSSiFIED 


103 


0    Did  Mr.  Calero  describe  the  needs  of  the  contras 
at  that  meeting? 
Yes. 


Did  he  talk  about  both  military  and  non-military 


A 

0 
needs? 

A    To  me  it  was  all  non-military. 

0  After  that  meeting  with  Mr.  Calero,  did  you  ever 
have  occasion  to  speak  with  him  again,  either  in  person  or 
over  the  telephone? 

A    No. 

0    You  received  what  has  been  marked  as  Exhibit  10,' 
the  October  6th  letter,  did  you  not?   You  ultimately 
received  a  letter  from  him  on  October  6th;  is  that  right? 

MR.  HORGAN:   So  that  the  record  is  clear.  Exhibit 
9,  we  believe,  was  received  by  Mrs.  Newington  through  the 
mails  and  we  believe  that  Exhibit  10,  which  is  the  October 
6th  letter,  was  delivered  to  her  by  Mr.  Channell  or  one  of 
his  colleagues,  and  that  he  had  in  some  fashion  received  it 
from  its  author,  Mr.  Calero  —  from  its  purported  author, 
Mr.  Calero. 

BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

Q    Had  you  had  any  communications  with  Mr.  Calero 


S 


PORTERS,  Inc. 


tn-i  lA-r  inr.r, 


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leading  up  to  the  October  6th  letter,  other  than  the  ones  we 
have  discussed? 

A    No. 

0    Were  you  surprised  to  receive  that  letter? 

A    Yes. 

0    Why  did  you  understand  you  had  received  it? 

A    Are  you  talking  about  this  letter?   (Indicating.) 

0    Yes,  the  second  letter,  the  October  6th  letter. 

A    I  gathered  Mr.  Channell  must  have  told  him  of  my 
involvement  and  he  was  just  thanking  me. 

0    Can  you  tell  me  what  the  Larry  MacIDonald  Brigade 
is? 

A    Yes.   That  was  something  that  was  formed  just 
because  Mr.  Calero  and  Congressman  MacDonald  had  been 
friends.   And  he  was  a  great  admirer  —  Calero  was  a  great 
admirer  of  MacDonald  and  thought  it  would  be  a  very  nice 
thing  to  name  a  task  force  after  him. 

0    By  a  task  force,  you  mean  a  military  unit?  is  that 
right? 

A    That's  right. 

0    The  October  6th  indicates  that  you  helped  in 
forming  the  Larry  MacDonald  Brigade;  is  that  correct? 


Ace-Federal  KEPORTERS,  Inc. 


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9210  07  01 

1   .i       1        A    That's  correct. 

2  0    And  how  did  you  help? 

3  A    By  contributing  money  through  Mr.  Channell.   It 

4  was  all  the  same. 

5  0    That  was  going  to  be  my  next  question. 

6  In  order  to  form  the  Larry  MacDonald  Brigade,  you 

7  made  your  contributions  through  Mr.  Channell? 

8  A    That's  correct. 

9  0    And  that  would  be  through  NEPL;  that  wasn't 

10  through  a  separate  organization? 

11  A    No . 

12  0    When  you  made  contributions,  did  you  earmark  them, 

13  at  least  with  Mr.  Channell,  specifically  for  the  Larry 

14  MacDonald  Brigade,  or  did  you  view  all  the  contras  as 

15  essentially  interchangeable  and  just  made  general 

16  contributions? 

17  A    The  latter  is  correct. 

18  0    So  you  didn't  earmark  specific  contributions  for 

19  the  Larry  MacDonald  Brigade? 

20  A    No. 

21  0    Did  you  understand  that  money  being  provided  to 

22  Mr.  Channell  would  be  used  to  buy  —  at  least  part  of  the 


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UNCIASSIFIED 


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money  would  be  used  to  buy  supplies  for  the  Larry  MacDonald 
Brigade? 

A    That's  correct. 

0    Did  you  ever  understand  that  part  of  that  money 
would  be  used  to  buy  arms  for  the  Larry  MacDonald  Brigade? 

A    No.   It  was  mainly  uniforms.   That's  what  I 
understood. 

0    And  who  told  you  that,  if  you  can  recall? 
A    Mr.  Calero.   Both  of  them. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   I  have  nothing  further. 
MR.  FRYMAN:   Nothing  further. 

(Whereupon,  at  12:35  o'clock  p.m.,  the  taking  of 
the  deposition  was  concluded.) 


oNMm 


RTERS,  Inc. 


202-347-3700 


Naiionwidg  Cnvgragg 


anf>-33»i-^;/u/i 


466 


CERTIPICA' 


I,  KAREN  N.  ILSEMA^TN  the  officer  before  whom 
the  foregoing  deposition  was  taken,  do  hereby  certify 
that  the  witness  whose  testimony  appears  in  the 
foregoing  deposition  was  duly  sworn  by  me;  that 
the  testimony  of  said  witness  was  taken  in  shorthand 
and  thereafter  reduced  to  typewriting  by  me  or  under 
my  direction;  that  said  deposition  is  a  true  record 
of  the  testimony  given  by  said  witness;  that  I  am 
neither  counsel  for,  related  to,  nor  employed  by 
any  of  the  parties  to  the  action  in  which  this 
deposition  was  taken;  and,  further,  that  I  am  not 
a  relative  or  employee  of  any  attorney  or  counsel 
employed  by  the  parties  hereto,  nor  financially 
or  otherwis'j  interested  in  the  outcome  of  this  action. 


107 


Notary  Public  in  and  for  the 
District  of  Columbia 


My  Commission  Expires    FEBRUARY  14,  1991 


DNCLASSIFIF 


467 


/  o  Oc:t^s- 


^^' 


x"" 


3N 


THE  WHITE  HOLSE 

WASHINGTON 


October  10,  1985 


Dear  Mrs.  Newington; 


I  want  to  take  this  opportunity  to  express  to 
you  my  deep  appreciation  for  the  selfless, 
patriotic  support  you  have  provided  so 
unflinchingly  to  this  Administration  and  to  our 
policies. 

Among  the  most  important  of  our  policies,  of 
course,  is  the  promotion  of  liberty  and 
democracy  abroad.   Your  invaluable  assistance 
for  the  cause  of  freedom,  in  helping  to  educate 
others  and  in  actively  supporting  those  who  so 
much  depend  on  us,  is  a  credit  to  this  great 
nation. 

We  are  grateful  for  your  commitment  to  that 
cause  and  for  your  continuing  support. 

God  bless  you  for  your  steadfastness. 

Sincerely, 


\   ^(SV-vAflL  f  ^i^tjL^-^s. 


Greenwich,  Connecticut  06836 


0191 


Partially  Declassified/ReleascJ  onJbf^89 
under  provisions  ol  E  0   '.?mS 
by  K,  Johnson.  Nalionj!  Soc.  .„  Council 


SS34 


UNCIASSIFI 


468 


;^  V  J^<f'(' 


NJ^TIONAL  SECURITY  COUNCIL 
WASHINGTON.  O  C.    2090« 


BN 


0188 


ONCUSSIFIED 


January    24,    1986 


ni\\/4cY 


Dear  Barbara: 

During  1985,  the  hope  freedom  and  democracy  in  Nicaragua  was  kept 
alive  with  the  help  of  the  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation 
of  Liberty  and  fine  Americans  such  as  you.   Because  you  cared, 
the  spark  of  liberty  still  glows  in  the  darkness  of  Nicaragua. 

Without  patriots  like  you,  carrying  out  the  President's  policy  of 
support  for  a  democratic  outcome  in  Nicaragua  would  have  been 
even  more  difficult.   Your  efforts  and  those  of  the  National 
Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty  continue  to  play  a 
crucial  role  in  the  democratic  drama  unfolding  in  Nicaragua. 
Your  support  has  been  essential  to  those  who  struggle  against  the 
tyranny  and  oppression  of  the  totalitarian  communist  regime  in 
Managua.   You  have  given  hope  where  there  would  otherwise  be 
despair. 

Last  year  was  a  challenging  time  for  America  and  her  President. 
But,  we  are  headed  in  the  right  direction.   Today,  in  all  of 
Central  America  only  Nicaragua  is  not  a  democracy.   You  can  be 
proud  that  you  have  made  a  crucial  contribution  in  helping  our 
President  in  this  vital  endeavor.   In  the  weeks  ahead,  we  will 
commence  a  renewed  effort  to  make  our  assistance  to  the 
Democratic  Resistance  Forces  even  more  effective.   Once  again 
your  support  will  be  essential. 

All  my  best  for  the  New  Year  and  God  bless  you.  "" 


Sincerely, 


.V.-osocT 


Oliver  L.  North 
Deputy  Director 
Political-Military  Affairs 


»aiiv  BLLlujJifiu(KReleased  on  llPg^&8 
DiKir  nfaiininni  iil  jiO  loooj. 
•<    Jomson.  Natranal  Security  Council 


rs.    Barbar^a— Newington 


^335" 


Jreenwich,    CT      0683< 


UNClASSIFlEi 


469 


FUER2A     DEMOCRATICA      NICARAGOENSE 

BN  0185 


July  11th,  1985 

Mrs.  Barbara  Newington 

^ peiv/»cy> 

reenwTch,  Connecticut  O6836 


Dear  Mrs.  Newington » 

My  trip  to  New  York  was  an  inspiration.   The  Larry  McDonald 
task  force  is  already  forming. 

I  am  grateful  to  Spitz  Channel  for  the  opportunity  to  get 
to  know  you.   Your  support  smd  patriotic  contribution  touches  all 
of  us. 

We  will  not  disappoint  you,  our  countrymen  or  President 
Reagam.  Freedom  will  return  to  Nicaragua  bacause  we  believe  God 
wants  it  there.  God  bless  you. 

Sincere lyt 


"■r-^ 


Adolfo  Calero  Portocarrero 


Partially  Oeclassiried/Reieased  nn   Xtfj  B  %Q 
under  provisions  of  E  0  123S6 
by  K  Johnson,  National  Security  Council 


.^yy. 


UKCUSSIFIED 


470 


_    (i>0. 


FUgBZA     DEMOCRATICA      NICARAGUENSE 


mmmm 


BN 


0186 


October  6,  1985 

Mrs.  Barbara  NeMington 

Dear  Mrs.  Newington: 

I  am  dictating  this  letter  from  our  command  center  and 
have  asked  Mr.  Channell  to  help  get  it  to  you. 

You  are  a  great  lady  and  a  true  friend  of  the  cause  of 
freedom  in  Nicaragua.   Your  help  in  forming  the  Larry 
MacDonald  Brigade  touched  us  all.   Without  Americans 
like  you  we  can  not  succeed. 

We  have  begun  a  major  push  to  unite  the  forces  in  the 
South  with  those  fighting  in  the  North.   You  will  be 
proud  to  know  that  the  Larry  MacDonald  Brigade  is  part 
of  that  effort. 

We  stand  for  Democracy  in  Nicaragua  and  your  assistance 
stands  as  a  shining  example  of  Americans  who  have  sacrificed 
to  hel p  us  . 

God  bless  you  and  we  remain  your  constant  admirers. 

Si  ncerely , 

Adolfo   Calero 


,  Declassified/Released  on  tPrCP  ^ ^ 
under  provisions  of  EO  12356 
by  K  Johnson,  National  Security  Council 


BNtiissro 


471 


STENOGRAPHIC  BONimSS 
UnrcTlMd  mnd  Unedited 
Not  for  Quotation  or 
DapUcatloa 


gmamTB  aveioi 


"■^ 


■UUUVifl  8K8I0B 

Committee  HearingB 
U.S.  HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 


W 


.    .V    ^    ^VVXVCW**'    OFFICE  OF  THE  CLERK 
■■'y.-.i^\  '^«i^J*  Oence  of  Official  Bepoitcn 


fUKUTiyi  SB8X01 


472 


DINKEL/mas 


,\J 


EXECUTIVE  SESSION 


JOINT  HEARINGS  ON  THE 
IRAN-CONTRA  INVESTIGATION 

Testimony  of  Oliver  L.  North 

Wednesday,  July  1,  1987 


House  Select  Committee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran 

and 

Senate  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military 
Assistance  to  Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition 

Washington,  D.C. 


473 


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18 
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24 
25 


The  select  committees  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at 
5:10  p.m.,  in  Room  B-352,  Rayburn  House  Office  Building, 
Hon.  Dick  Cheney  (on  behalf  of  the  House  Select  Committee) 
and  Hon.  Daniel  K.  Inouye  (chairman  of  the  Senate  Select 
Committee)  presiding. 


474 


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UNCLASSIHED 


""^Chairman  Inouye.   The  Senate  Conmittee  will  please 
come  to  order. 

In  accordance  with  Committee  Rule  2.1  I  will  entertain 
a  motion  this  hearing  be  closed  to  the  public. 

Mr.  Rudman.   Pursuant  to  Committee  Rule  2.2,  I  move  the 
committee  hearing  be  closed  because  the  matters  to  be 
discussed  include  matters  of  national  security. 

Chairman  Inouye.   I  have  the  following  proxies  which 
will  become  part  of  the  record:   Senator  Sarbanes,  Heflin, 
Boren,  Nunn,  and  my  vote  is  also  aye. 

Mr.  Rudman.   I  also  have  proxies  from  the  following 
Members:   Senator  Hatch,  Cohen,  and  Senator  McClure.   I 
also  vote  aye. 

Chairman  Inouye.   Senator  Mitchell? 

Mr.  Mitchell.   Aye. 

Chairman  Inouye.   Senator  Trible. 

Mr.  Trible.   Aye. 

Chairman  Inouye.   The  vote  is  unanimous  in  favor  of 
closing  this  hearing. 

Mr.  Sullivan.   Mr.  Chairman,  I  might  record  as  well  for 
the  limited  purpose  of  this  hearing,  we  have  no  objection 
to  it  being  in  executive  session.   As  explained  yesterday, 
our  request  to  maintain  open  hearings  still  stands  based 
upon  our  earlier  letter.   But  for  the  purposes  of  today's 
session,  we  agree  to  have  it  closed.  5  if  , ,  ;  *'  ;-■  ^-    -   •,'     !■' 

%l^.  :■«;•. '..-J  iV':y-il  ^ ''''"■ 


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-.,1  ■■•'■-=  ^i 


Chairman  Inouye.   I  have  another  matter  to  bring  up 
while  we  are  waiting. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Cheney.   Mr.  Chairman,  I  move  in  light  of  the 
sensitive  nature  of  the  material  to  be  discussed,  that  we 
meet  in  executive  session. 

Mr.  Jenkins.   Without  objection  from  our  side,  we 
have  sufficient  proxies,  I  think. 

Chairman  Inouye.   Now  you  are  in  executive  session, 
the  Senate  and  the  House. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Cheney.   The  committee  will  come  to  order. 

For  the  sake  of  establishing  a  clear  record  — 
we  lack  a  Member  on  this  side.   Without  a  quorum,  we  can't 
proceed.   Will  somebody  check  and  make  sure  Mr.  Jenkins 
is  on  his  way  back? 

Mr.  Jenkins  is  now  present.   Still  off  the  record. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Cheney.   Back  on  the  record. 

Colonel  North,  would  you  stand? 

(The  witness  was  sworn  by  Mr.  Cheney.) 

Mr.  Cheney.   Thank  you. 

The  Chair  recognizes  the  counsel  for  the  House  Select 
Comjnittee,  Mr.  Nields. 
l-iiTt'^Mr.  Sullivan.   Excuse  me.   I  think  it  would  be  appropriat' 


476 


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to^KSve  the  Senate  swear  him  as  well. 

Mr.  Cheney.   We  have  only  done  it  once  for  every 
witness . 

Mr.  Sullivan.   Would  you  mind  doing  it? 

(The  witness  was  sworn  by  Chairman  Inouye.) 

Chairman  Inouye.   Thank  you. 

Mr.  Chairman.   The  Chair  recognizes  Mr.  Nields. 

Mr.  Nields.   Colonel  North,  this  is  a  joint  hearing 
of  the  House  and  Senate  Select  Committees  on  Iran.   The 
subject  of  the  question  today  —  which  is  being  conducted 
in  executive  session  —  is  —  the  subject  is  the  knowledge, 
if  any,  of  the  President  on  the  subject  of  the  use  of  the 
proceeds  of  arms  sales  to  Iran  for  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance. 

I  would  ask  you  at  the  outset  whether  you  have  any 
information  on  that  subject? 

Mr.  North.   Mr.  Nields,  I  respectfully  decline  to  answer 
that  question  based  on  my  Fifth  Amendment  rights  against 
self-incrimination. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Colonel  North,  I  hereby  communicate  to 
you  an  order  issued  by  the  United  States  District  Court  for 
the  District  of  Columbia  at  the  request  of  the  House 
Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions 
with  Iran,  providing  that  you  may  not  refuse  to  provide 
any  evidence  to  this  committee  on  the  basis  of  your 
priyijLege  against  self-incrimination  and  providing  further 

I  V.  ii 


477 


I  -i  A  U 


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,  ^^^ 


#OLk^^«® 


thaJtno  evidence  or  other  information  obtained  under  the 
order  or  any  information  directly  or  indirectly  derived 
from  such  evidence  may  be  used  against  you  in  any  criminal 

proceeding. 

Chairman  Inouye.   We  are  hereby  communicating  to  you 
a   similar  order  obtained  by  the  Senate  Select  Committee; 
and  on  behalf  of  this  committee,  we  join  in  the  direction 

to  you,  sir. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Colonel  North,  I  therefore  direct  you  to 
answer  the  questions  put  to  you. 

Mr.  Sullivan.   One  clarification  for  the  record  so 
that  it  is  clear.   We  have  requested  that  all  proceedings 
be  open.   We  are  agreeable  to  this  short  executive  session 
being  closed  but  do  not  waive  our  future  rights. 

Secondly,  the  Colonel  is  here  pursuant  to  the 
compulsion  of  subpoena. 
Thank  you. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Mr.  Nields? 

Mr.  Nields.   For  the  sake  of  convenience  only,  I 
will  be  referring  to  the  use  of  the  proceeds  of  arms  sales 
to  Iran  for  the  support  of  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance  as 
the  diversion  or  a  diversion.   Is  that  understood? 
Mr.  North.   Yes,  it  is. 

Mr.  Nields.   DO  you  have  any  information  with  respect 
^.ii^e  president's  knowledge  of  the  diversion;  and  I'm 


mM 


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'a  ^i  ^^ 
•>ji  .\  -*•* 


BHtmsw 


referring  now  to  his  knowledge  prior  to  November  24,  1986? 

Mr.  North.   Yes.   I  never  personally  discussed  use  of 
the  residuals  or  profits  from  sale  of  weapons  to  Iran  and 
the  assistance  therefor  derived  for  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance 
with  the  President.   I  never  raised  it  with  him  and  he 
never  raised  it  with  me  during  my  tenure  at  the  National 
Security  Council  staff. 

Throughout,  I  assumed  that  he  knew.   1  sought  approval 
by  presenting  these  proposals  to  Admiral  Poindex'ter;  and 
he  subsequently  authorized  me  to  proceed.   I  assumed  that 
Admiral  Poindexter  had  solicited  and  obtained  the  President's 
approval  for  those  actions. 

To  my  recollection,  Admiral  Poindexter  never  told  me 
that  he  met  with  the  President  on  this  specific  issue 
or  that  he  had  discussed  the  use  of  residuals  or  profits 
for  use  by  the  contras  or  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance  with  the 
President  or  that  he  got  the  President's  specific  approval 
for  these  activities;  but  throughout,  I  assumed  that  all 
these  things  had  occurred. 

No  other  person  ever  told  me  that  he  or  she  ever 
discussed  the  use  of  the  residuals  or  profits  from  the  sale 
of  these  arms  to  the  use  of  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance  or 
their  support  with  the  President. 

In  late  November  1986,  two  other  things  occurred  which 
relate  to  this  issue.   On  or  about  Friday,  November  21st, 


I 


479 


*msW 


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25 


I  "asked  Admiral  Poindexter  pointedly,  "Does  the  President 
know?" 

And  he  told  me,  "No,  he  did  not." 

And  on  November  25th,  after  I  had  left  the  White  House 
and  been  reassigned  to  the  Marine  Corps,  a  telephone  call 
from  the  President.   In  the  course  of  that  telephone 
call,  the  President  said  to  me,  "I  just  didn't  know,"  or 
words  to  that  effect.   Those  are  the  facts  as  I  know  them 
or  as  relayed  by  others  to  me  on  this  issue. 

There  is  one  other  matter  which  I  would  raise  or 
should  raise  by  way  of  clarification.   After  a  meeting  in 
the  summer  of  1986,  at  which  we  discussed  the  $100  million 
authorized  and  appropriated  by  the  Congress  but  not  yet 
forwarded  to  the  President,  and  therefore  not  yet 
available  to  the  Resistance,  on  leaving  a  meeting  at  which 
the  President  had  been  present,  I  said  to  Admiral  Poindexter, 
"It  looks,"  —  words  to  the  effect  that  "It  looks  like 
the  Ayatollah  will  have  to  help  the  Resistance  in 
Nicaragua  a  little  bit  longer,"  or  words  to  that  effect. 

I  do  not  believe  that  the  President  overheard  that 
comment.  It  was  not  intended  for  him.  It  was  intended 
for  Admiral  Poindexter. 

Those,  sir,  are  the  facts  as  I  know  them. 

Mr.  Nields.   I  have  a  few  specific  follow-up  questions. 
Colonel  North. 


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25 


BNtussro 


"""You  testified  about  a  conversation  with  the  President 
on  November  25th  in  which  he  said,  "I  just  didn't  know." 
Was  the  diversion  mentioned  during  that  conversation? 

Mr.  North.   The  word  "diversion"  was  not  mentioned. 
I  assumed  from  the  conversation  that  the  President  was 
referring  specifically  to  the  fact  that  he  did  not  know 
about  the  fact  that  funds  generated  as  a  consequence  of  the 
sale  of  arms  materiel  to  Iran  had  been  used  to  support  the 
Nicaraguan  Resistance. 

Mr.  Nields.  But  I  take  it  from  your  testimony  that  that 
was  an  assumption;  that  subject  matter  was  never  specifically 
discussed  by  either  of  you  during  the  conversation? 

Mr.  North.   The  specific  subject  was  not  discussed, 
Mr,  Nields,  but  the  whole  conversation  dealt  with  my 
departure  from  the  NSC.   And  the  case  thereof. 

Mr.  Nields.   Just  so  we  are  clear,  did  either  the 
President  or  you  make  any  reference  during  the  conversation 
to  the  use  of  the  proceeds  of  the  arms  sales  for  the 
Nicaraguan  Resistance? 

Mr.  North.   No. 

Mr.  Nields.   But  you  understood  in  the  context  of  the 
situation  that  the  words  "I  just  didn't  know"  referred 
to  the  diversion? 

Mr.  North.   It  was  very  clear  to  me  that  what  the 
President  was  referring  to  was  the  fact  that  I  — 

i 


■jr,jM,*Vit^?if|fiJ; 


481 


IINCUSSIFIED 


10 


Admiral  Poindexter  and  I  had  left  or  been  relieved,  reassigned 

as  a  consequence  of  the  fact  that  he  did  not  know  about 

the  use  of  those  funds  to  support  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance, 

Mr.  Nields.   Other  than  that  coversation,  did  you  ever 
personally  discuss  the  diversion  with  the  President? 

Mr.  North.   I  did  not. 


6 

Mr.  Nields.   Were  you  ever  present  when  that  subject 

was  discussed  with  the  President? 


Mr.  North.   I  was  not,  aside  from  that  one  conversation 
I  had  with  the  President  on  the  25th. 

Mr.  Nields.   Has  anyone  ever  told  you  that  the 
President  was  aware  of  the  diversion? 

Mr.  North.   No. 

Mr.  Nields.   Have  you  ever  discussed  the  subject  of  the 
President's  awareness  of  the  diversion  with  anyone? 

Mr.  North.   I  have  discussed  it  with  Attorney  General 
Meese. 

Mr.  Nields.   When  was  that? 

Mr.  North.   On  the  23rd  of  November,  1986. 

Mr.  Nields.   Prior  to  that  date  had  you  ever  discussed 
that  subject  with  Attorney  General  Meese? 

Mr.  North.   I  had  not. 

Mr.  Nields.   Anyone  else? 

Mr.  North.   Obviously  Admiral  Poindexter. 

Mr.  Nields.   That  was  on  November  the  21st? 


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11 


Mr.  North.   Yes,  and  perhaps  for  a  period  of  time 
thereafter  before  I  — 

Mr.  Nields.   Had  you  ever  discussed  the  subject  of  the 
President's  knowledge  of  the  diversion  with  Admiral 
Poindexter  prior  to  November  21st? 

Mr.  North.   Not  that  I  recall. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  discuss  that  subject  with  anyone 
else? 

Mr.  North.   At  any  point  in  time? 

Mr.  Nields.   Let's  limit  it  to  prior  to  November  24th, 
1986. 

Mr.  North.   Not  that  I  recall. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  ever  create  any  documents  that 
may  -- 

Mr.  North.   If  I  may,  let  me,  just  to  clarify.   You 
just  said  ever  prior  to  November  24th.   There  was  the  issue 
of  a  discussion  I  had  with  General  Secord  in  which  I 
related  to  him  that  I  had  joked  about  it  with  the  President. 
But  I  have  already  discussed  that. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  tell  General  Secord  that  you  had 
joked  about  the  Ayatollah  funding  the  contras  with  the 
President? 

Mr.  North.   Again  I  may  have  joked  with  him.   I  don't 
deny  that.   I  am   simply  saying  I  don't  recall  that  discussion 
with  him,  but  I  may  well  have  joked  with  him  about  that 


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UNCUSSIRED 


12 


aspect  of  it,  yes, 

Mr.  Nields.   Why  would  you  joke  with  General  Secord 
or  why  would  you  tell  General  Secord  that  you  had  joked 
with  the  President  about  the  diversion  if  it  wasn't  true? 

Mr.  North.   To  keep  him  more  enthusiastically  engaged. 
He  was  tired,  frustrated.   To  keep  him  engaged  in  the 
activity. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  discuss  the  subject  of  the 
President's  knowledge  of  the  diversion  with  anyone  else 
prior  to  November  24,  1986? 

Mr.  North.   Not  that  I  recall,  no. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  create  and  send  up  the  line,  so 
to  speak,  documents  which  made  reference  to  the  use  of  the 
proceeds  of  Iran  arms  sales  for  the  benefit  of  the 
Nicaraguan  Resistance? 

Mr.  North.   Yes,  I  did. 

Mr.  Nields.   On  how  many  occasions? 

Mr,  North,   My  recollection  is  that  it  would  have 
been  five,  perhaps  six  times. 

Mr.  Nields.   And  what  occasioned  your  writing  these 
documents  and  sending  them  up  the  line? 

Mr.  North.   Each  time  we  had  a  proposal  for  transaction 
from  the  Iranians,  as  a  consequence  of  our  meetings  with 
them,  I  would  prepare  a  description  of  how  the  transaction 
would  take  place,  the  consequences  of  it,  and  send  those 


484 


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WIKSSW 


13 


menios  up  to  Admiral  Poindexter. 

Mr.  Nields.   And  did  these  memos  seek  the  President's 
approval? 

Mr.  North.   My  recollection  is  that  the  memo  would 
have  had  an  approval,  disapproval  recommendation  line  on 
it  asking  for  —  that  the  President  approve  this  activity, 
words  to  that  effect. 

Mr.  Nields.   This  would  be  a  line  where  one  could 
either  check  approve,  or  disapprove? 

Mr.  North.   Admiral  Poindexter  could  indicate  approve 
or  disapprove.   That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nields.   That  is  approved  or  disapproved  by  the 
President? 

Mr.  North.   No.   I  want  to  be  specific.   For  exeunple, 
the  line  —  the  recommendation  line  might  read  that  you 
discuss  the  activity  proposed  above  with  the  President  and 
seek  his  approval.   Then  below  that  there  would  be 
approve,  disapprove,  two  spaces  for  an  initial  or  a  check. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  those  memoranda  —  I  take  it  you  sent 
those  up  the  line,  so  to  speak,  to  Admiral  Poindexter. 

Mr.  North.   It  is  my  recollection  that  I  did,  yes. 

Mr.  Nields.   And  did  they  come  back? 

Mr.  North.   I  cannot  recall  specifically  that  those 
memoranda  came  back  to  me  directly;  but  that  would  not 
have  been  unusual  under  those  circumstances,  that  this  is 


485 


wussw 


14 


a  --"was  a  very  sensitive,  very  closely  compartjnented 
activity,  but  I  always  got  an  approval  from  the  Admiral  either 
verbally  or  otherwise,  proceed  before  the  transaction  took 

place. 

Mr.  Nields.   And  I  take  it  three  of  these  transactions 

did  take  place? 

Mr.  North.   That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nields.   And  you  received  approvals  before  they 

went  forward? 

Mr.  North.   Ves,  I  did. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  any  of  these  memos  come  back? 
Mr.  North.   Again,  I  do  not  recall  specifically  seeing 
the  memos  come  back  to  me  with  the  boxes  checked  or  initialed 

by  the  Admiral. 

Mr.  Nields.   What  is  your  best  recollection  on  that 

subject? 

Mr.  North.   I  simply  don't  recall.   They  may  well  have. 

It  is  entirely  possible  that  they  didn't. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  ever  see  any  other  documents 
either  created  by  you  or  some  other  person  that  made 
reference  to  the  diversion? 

Mr.  North.   There  were  documents  at  the  Central 
intelligence  Agency,  prepared  by  officers  of  the  Central 
Intelligence  Agency. 

can  I  ask  a  question,  if  I  may?  ^•V^-;^-:-      \'i^'^:--X^L  ■ 


486 


ONCLASSra 


15 


Mr,  Cheney.   Colonel,  if  I  may,  at  this  point  anything 
that  is  classified,  discussed  in  this  setting  would  be 
deleted  before  there  would  ever  be  a  release  of  the 
transcript. 

Mr.  North.   I  was  concerned  about  the  names. 

There  were  memos  prepared  at  the  Central  Intelligence 
Agency  beginning  in  the  late  summer,  early  fall  which 
related  to  information  obtained  by  the  Central  Intelligence 
Agency  reflecting  that  monies  raised  as  a  consequence  of 
these  arms  transactions  were  indeed  being  used  to  support 
the  Nicaraguan  Resistance. 

Mr.  Nields.   Do  you  have  any  reason  or  do  you  have  any 
knowledge  or  information  on  the  subject  whether  those 
memoranda  or  any  of  those  writings  ever  were  brought  to 
the  attention  of  the  President? 

Mr.  North.   I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  —  are  there  any  other  documents 
of  which  you  are  aware  that  made  reference  or  made 
reference  to  the  diversion? 

Mr.  North.   Not  that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Nields.  Did  you  ever  discuss  the  subject  of  the 
President's  knowledge  of  the  diversion  with  Director  Casey? 

Mr.  North.   I  do  not  recall  addressing  that  issue 
with  the  Director,  no. 
,e        Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  ever  discuss  the  subject  of  the 


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25 


DNCLHSSIflED 


16 


President's  knowledge  of  the  diversion  with  Mr.  McFarlane? 

Mr.  North.   Not  before  the  --  my  recollection  is  that 
the  issue  of  the  residuals  or  profits  being  used  to 
support  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance  as  a  subject  was 
discussed  with  Mr.  McFarlane  during  May  of  1986.   At  that 
time,  we  did  not  raise  the  issue  —  neither  of  us  raised 
the  issue  of  whether  or  not  the  President  had  approved  it. 
I  believe  that  subsequent  to  my  discussion  with  the  Attorney 
General  on  the  23rd  of  November,  I  talked  to  Mr.  McFarlane, 
as  I  did  to  Admiral  Poindexter,  and  told  them  what  I  had 
told  the  Attorney  General .   And  part  of  what  I  told  them 
was  that  the  Attorney  General  had  asked  me  about  the 
President's  knowledge  and  I  told  them  that  I  told  him  I 
had  no  idea  whether  or  not  the  President  knew  about  it. 
That  he  didn't  know  about  it  from  me. 

Mr.  Nields.  Did  you  have  any  other  discussions  with 
Mr.  McFarlane  on  the  subject  of  the  President's  knowledge 
of  the  diversion? 

Mr.  North.   I  don't  think  so. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  have  any  conversations  with 
Mr.  Regan  on  the  subject  of  the  President's  knowledge  of 
the  diversion? 

Mr.  North.   No. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  have  any  discussions  with  Paul 
Thompson  on  the  subject  of  the  President's  knowledge  of  the 

■■■■■■:   ,:  A" ': ^^.j^^lH 


488 


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24 

f. .    .T  C  '. 


UNCussra 


17 


di^Srsion? 

Mr.  North.   I  don't  believe  I  did,  but  it  is  entirely 
possible  that  Mr.  Thompson,  Commander  Thompson,  excuse 
me,  was  present  during  one  of  the  discussions  I  had  with 
the  Admiral  on,  for  example,  the  21st  or  the  24th,  the 
day  before  I  departed  the  NSC . 

Mr.  Nields.   Prior  to  the  21st  of  November,  1986,  did 
you  ever  discuss  the  subject  of  the  President's  knowledge 
of  the  diversion  with  Mr.  Thompson? 

Mr.  North.   I  don't  believe  I  did,  no. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  ever  discuss  the  subject  of  the 
President's  knowledge  of  the  diversion  with  Mr.  Earl  or 
anyone  else  on  your  staff? 

Mr.  North.   My  sense  is  that  I  probably  did  on  the  day 
that  I  departed  the  NSC  and  I've  had  my  memory  refreshed  on 
a  discussion  which  I  had  with  him  then  related  to  the 
telephone  call,  but  I  don't  recall  any   other  discussions 
with  Lt.  Colonel  Earl  or  Commander  Coy  or  Ms.  Hall  or 
Ms.  Browne  on  that  issue. 

Mr.  Nields.   Would  you  describe  the  conversation  that 
you  now  do  recall  with  Mr.  Earl  on  that  subject? 

Mr.  North.   Well  —  and  again  my  recollection  is  still 
very  hazy  on  it  but  I  have  been  refreshed  that  I  told 
Commander  —  Lt.  Colonel  Earl  that  the  President  had  called 

me,  related  the  conversation  as  it  had  occurred,  and  told 

-id   -::•  ■•- 


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UHCUSSIFIED 


Corohel  Earl  what  the  President  said.   "I  just  didn't  know,' 
or  words  to  that  effect. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  have  any  conversations  on  the 
subject  of  the  President's  knowledge  of  the  diversion  prior 
to  November  24,  1986  with  anyone  else? 

Mr.  North.   Well,  Admiral  Poindexter,  but  aside  from 
that  — 

Mr.  Nields.   Yes.   We  have  covered  Admiral  Poindexter. 
We  have  covered  Attorney  General  Meese. 

Mr.  North.   Not  that  I  recall. 

Mr.  Nields.   No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Mr.  Liman? 

Mr.  Liman.   No  questions.   Thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Mr.  Van  Cleve? 

Mr.  Van  Cleve.   No  questions.   Thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Senator  Inouye? 

Chairman  Inouye.   You  better  get  the  designated 
questioners. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Any  further  questions  from  any  member  of 
the  panel? 

Mr.  Mitchell.   No  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Rudman.   No  questions  here,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Trible.   No  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Then  the  session  is  completed.   The 
committee  stands  adjourned.     ^''.-    •   '  , '  «'5.v"„  v;""    ;; 


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The  connnittee  will  reconvene  at  9  a.m.  on  July  7, 
Russell  Senate  Office  Building,  to  take  public  testimony 
from  Colonel  North.   He  is  instructed  to  return  at  that 
time. 

Mr.  North.   Yes,  sir. 

(Whereupon,  at  6:45  p.m.,  the  select  committees 
adjourned,  to  reconvene  at  9:00  a.m.,  on  Tuesday,  July  7, 
1987.) 


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UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION  OF  WILLIAM  B.  O'BOYLE 

Washington,  D.C. 
Friday,  May  8,  1987 
Deposition  of  WILLIAM  B.  O'BOYLE,  called  for 
examination  pursuant  to  subpoena,  at  the  Hart  Senate  Office 
Building,  Suite  901,  at  10:30  a.m.,  before  Michael  G. 
Paulus,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  the  District  of 
Columbia,  when  were  present  on  behalf  of  the  respective 
parties: 

THOMAS  FRYMAN,  ESQ. 
Assistant  Majority  Counsel 
KENNETH  R.  BUCK,  ESQ. 
Assistant  Minority  Counsel 
United  States  House  of  Representatives 
Select  Committee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran 


-  continued 


^. 


'^^    -'^/ 


ICLASSIFIED 


H.'' 


provMoiu  of  E.O.  12356 
||Wm»,  National  Security  CoundlACE-FEDERAL  REPORTERS.  InC 


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UNCUSSIFIED 


JAMES  KAPLAN,  ESQ. 

Associate  Counsel 

United  States  Senate  Select 
Committee  on  Iran  and  the 
Nicaraguan  Opposition 

BERT  HAMMOND 

On  behalf  of  the  witness: 

GUSTAVE  H.  NEWMAN,  ESQ. 

DEBORAH  A.  SCHWARTZ,  ESQ. 

Gustave  H.  Newman,  P.O. 

641  Lexington  Avenue 

19th  Floor 

New  York,  New  York  10022 


ONCUSSiFlEO 


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CONTENT 

s 

2 

WITNESS 

EXAMINATION 

3 

Will iam 

B.    O'Boyle 

4 

By  Mr. 

Fryman 

4 

5 

By   Mr. 

Kaplan 

87 

6 

By    Mr. 

Buck 

93 

7 

EXHIBIT 

s 

8     j 

O'Boyle 

Deposition 

IDENTIFIED 

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PROCEEDINGS 
Whereupon, 

WILLIAM  B.  O'BOYLE 
was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 
was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0   ,   Would  you  state  your  name  for  the  record, 
please? 

A     My  name  is  William  Buchanan  O'Boyle. 
0     Where  do  you  reside,  Mr.  O'Boyle? 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^H  New       New 
0     How  long  have  you  lived  in  New  York? 
A     I  have  lived  in  New  York  since  late  1969. 
Q     Where  did  you  obtain  a  college  degree? 
A     Stanford  University. 
0     In  what  year? 
A     1968. 

0     Did  you  attend  any  graduate  school? 
A     Yes. 
0     Where? 
A 


I  attended  New  York  University  and  Columbia 

under  provisions  of  E.O.  1Z356     Ul  fllLnill  11111    1 1 
by  D.  Sirh|D.  National  Security  Council       k  ^Tr.*7f7fVriJ^rir.c     J^r- 


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.ikepaulus  1  '   University. 

2  '       0     What  fields  did  you  study  at  those  universities? 

3  I       A      Including  Stanford? 

4  I        0      Let's  start  with  the  graduate  schools. 
j 

5  i        A      I  studied  drama  performance  studies  at  New  York 

6  I   University,  business  at  Columbia  University.   I  am 

7  I   currently  studying  cinema  studies  at  the  New  York 

8  University. 

9  i       0     Did  you  obtain  a  degree  at  either  of  the 

10  universities  in  New  York? 

11  A     Yes.   A  master  of  arts  from  New  York  University 
1 
1 

12  and  a  master  of  science  from  Columbia  University. 

13  0     What  is  your  occupation  at  the  present  time? 

14  I       A     I  am  independently  wealthy  and  I  own  and  manage 

15  an  oil  and  gas  exploration  firm. 

16  !       0     And  you  manage  your  other  investments? 

17  A     Yes. 

18  0     Did  there  come  a  time  when  you  received  a 

19  solicitation  for  a  contribution  from  a  representative  of 

20  the  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty? 

21  A     I  was  contacted  by  the  National  Endowment.   I  am 

22  not  quite  sure  to  say  whether  I  received  a  solicitation  or 


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not. 

0     When  was  the  first  contact? 

A      It  was  in  late  March  of  1986. 

0     Who  contacted  you? 

A     It  was  Jane  McLaughlin. 

0     How  did  she  contact  you? 

A     By  telephone. 

0   _  Do  you  know  the  person  that  referred  her  to  you? 

A.     Yes. 

0     Who  was  that? 

A     His  name  is  Searcy  Ferguson. 

0     Who  is  Mr.  Ferguson? 

A     He  is  an  old  acquaintance,  friend  from  Dallas, 
Texas,  which  is  my  home  town. 

0     Did  you  know  in  advance  of  her  call  that  you 
would  be  receiving  a  contact  from  the  National  Endowment, 
or  as  it  is  often  referred  to,  NEPL? 

A     No. 

Q     Can  you  identify  the  date  when  this  first 
contact  occurred? 

A     My  appointment  book  is  currently  in  the  hands  of 
the  special  prosecutor's  office.   We  don't  have  copies 


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UNCUSSIFIED 


yet.   They  are  going  to  supply  us  copies.   But  I  can  tell 
you  approximately.   It  was  approximately  March  26th  to  28th 
of  1986. 

0     In  that  first  telephone  call  what  did 
Ms.  McLaughlin  say  to  you? 

A     She  told  me  that  she  had  gotten  my  name  from 
Mr.  Ferguson  in  Texas.   She  asked  me  if  I  would  like  to 
come  down  to  the  White  House  for  a  briefing  on  the 
political  and  military  situation  in  Nicaragua.   That's  it. 

Q     Did  she  ask  for  a  contribution  in  this  first 
telephone  call? 

A     I  don't  think  so.   No. 

0     Did  she  say  anything  about  the  fund-raising 
efforts  of  her  organization? 

A     I  believe  she  described  her  organization  as  an 
organization  which  supported  the  contras.   I  understood  at 
that  time  that  the  organization  did  raise  money. 
What  was  your  question  again,  please? 

0     Did  she  say  anything  about  the  fund-raising 
efforts  of  the  organization? 

A     I  don't  recall  specifically. 

0     Had  you  heard  of  the  organization  before  this 


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A  No. 

Q  What  did  you  say  in  response  to  Ms.  McLaughlin's 
comments? 

A  When  she  invited  me  to  come  down  to  the  White 


6   I  House,  I  was  interested. 


0     Did  you  say  you  would  come? 
A     Yes. 

0     Did  you  express  any  views  in  this  conversation 
about  the  situation  in  Nicaragua? 

A     I  don't  remember  specifically. 

0     At  that  time,  in  March  of  1986,  what  were  your 

13  j  views  with  respect  to  Nicaragua? 

14  A     I  was  alarmed  at  the  fact  that  the  communists 
had  gained  a  foothold  in  Central  America,  on  the  South 
American  continent. 

0     Did  you  favor  an  active  military  response  to  the 
communist  foothold  that  you  saw  there? 

A     By  the  United  States,  do  you  mean? 

0     Let's  say  by  the  resistance  in  Nicaragua.   Did 
you  favor  an  active  military  response  by  the  resistance 


22 


within  the  country? 


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Yes. 


Did  you  favor  United  States  support  for  that? 
Yes. 

Including  support  of  military  equipment? 
Yes. 

Did  you  receive  any  written  invitation  to  this 
meeting  at  the  White  House? 
A     No. 

0.     So  the  only  invitation  was  the  oral  invitation 
to  come  down  the  day  after  the  telephone  call? 
A     Yes. 

0     What  arrangements  did  she  make  after  you  arrived 
in  Washington?  Where  were  you  to  go?  What  did  she  tell 
you  in  the  phone  call? 

A     As  I  recall,  she  arranged  to  meet  me  at  the 
airport.   I  think  she  also  asked  for  my  social  security 
number  for  clearance  into  the  White  House  area. 
0     Which  airport  did  you  fly  into? 
A     As  I  recall,  it  was  National.   I  came  down  on 
the  shuttle. 

0     She  met  your  plane? 
A     Yes. 


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0     You  had  not  met  her  before;  is  that  correct? 

A     That's  correct. 

0     How  did  you  recognize  her? 

A     I  think  she  told  me  what  she  would  be  wearing. 
She  described  herself  and  told  me  what  she  would  be 
wearing. 

0     How  did  you  travel  into  Washington  from  the 
airport? 

A.     There  was  a  limousine  that  she  arrived  in  and 
brought  me  back  into  Washington. 

0     The  two  of  you  went  into  Washington  in  the 
limousine? 

A     Yes. 

0     Where  did  you  first  go  in  Washington? 

A     To  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel. 

0     Was  this  in  the  morning  or  the  afternoon? 

A     In  the  afternoon. 

0     What  happened  after  you  went  to  the  Hay-Adams 
Hotel? 

A     As  I  recall,  there  were  a  number  of  people  from 
NEPL  and  a  few  other  potential  contributors  there  at  the 
hotel,  and  we  rendezvoused  there  at  the  hotel. 


Ar-c^cncDai     P  £.■.,">'  i  l^RC     iNr 


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0     Were  you  in  a  meeting  room  at  the  hotel? 

A     If  I  recall,  it  was  upstairs.   There  is  a  kind 
of  private  dining  area  on  the  mezzanine  level. 

0     Who  do  you  recall  was  there  from  NEPL? 

A     I  believe  Mr.  Channell  was  there.   Of  course 
Ms.  McLaughlin  was  there.   I 'don't  recall  any  other 
specific  person  that  was  there. 

0     Was  Mr.  Conrad  there? 

A.     I  don't  remember. 

0     Was  Mr.  Littledale  there? 

A     Possibly. 

0     Do  you  know  Mr.  Littledale? 

A     I  have  his  name  noted  in  my  appointment  book, 
but  I  can't  place  the  face.   I  did  meet  a  Mr.  Littledale. 

0     Was  Mr.  Smith  there? 

A     I  don't  know. 

0     Were  there  any  representatives  of  International 
Business  Communications  there? 

A     Yes. 

0     Which  representatives? 

A     I  think  it  was  Mr.  Littledale.   There  was 
another  name  which  I  had  noted  down  in  the  appointment  book 


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;  which  is  now  in  the  hands  of  the  special  prosecutor. 

i 

!       0     Was  Mr.  Miller  there? 

A     I  don't  think  so.   Not  at  that  time. 
;       0     Did  you  believe  Mr.  Littledale  was  an  IBC 
I  employee  or  a  NEPL  employee? 

A     As  I  recall,  there  were  a  couple  of  people  from 
IBC  there.   I  don't  know  what  IBC  was  except  a  consulting 
group.   I  was  told  it  was  a  consulting  group.   Actually,  I 
believed  that  they  were  government  agents. 

Q     Have  you  ever  met  Mr.  Frank  Gomez? 

A     The  name  doesn't  ring  a  bell. 

0     Have  you  ever  met  David  Fischer? 

A     Not  to  my  knowledge. 

0     Have  you  ever  met  a  Jeffrey  Keffer? 

A     Not  to  my  knowledge. 

0     You  say  there  were  some  other  contributors  also 
present  in  the  private  meeting  room  at  the  Hay-Adams  that 
afternoon.   Which  contributors  were  there  that  you  recall? 

A     I  don't  recall  their  names.   There  were  one  or 
two  other  people  there  who  I  understood  were  to  attend  the 
briefing,  but  I  don't  recall  their  names. 

0     What  was  the  totals^zej^^^^  group  in  the 


ras  the  total  s i ze^^^hg 

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2     I  A  It  was   approximately   half  a   dozen   to   ten 


3  ' 

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people.   Around  ten  people. 

0     How  long  did  the  group  remain  at  the  Hay-Adams 
in  the  meeting  room  that  afternoon? 

A     To  my  recollection,  it  was  about  half  an  hour. 
Not  very  long. 

0     Would  you  describe  this  as  a  get-acquainted 
session? 

A     Yes,  and  a  rendezvous  prior  to  going  over  to  the 
Old  Executive  Office  Building. 

0     Did  anyone  make  any  statement  or  speech  to  the 
group? 

A     No. 

0     How  were  you  introduced  to  Mr.  Channell? 

A     I  don't  recall  exactly.   He  was  there.   I  don't 
recall  exactly  what  was  said. 

0     Did  Ms.  McLaughlin  introduce  you  to 
Mr.  Channell? 

A     I  believe  so. 

0     Were  you  introduced  to  the  other  contributors? 


A     Yes. 


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0     I  believe  you  said  that  you  went  from  the 
Hay-Adams  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building. 
A     Yes. 

Did  you  walk  over  in  a  group? 

Yes. 

Did  Mr.  Channell  lead  the  group? 

Yes. 

what  happened  after  you  got  to  the  White  House 


0 

A 

0 

A 

Q 
grounds. 

A     I  am  taking  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building  to 
be  part  of  the  White  House. 

0     Yes. 

A     We  went  through  security  at  the  front  door,  and 
then  we  went  up  to  a  conference  room.   I  don't  recall  the 
room  number,  but  I  believe  it  was  upstairs  in  the  building. 

0     Approximately  what  time  did  you  arrive  there? 

A     It  was  about  five  or  six  in  the  evening. 

0     Did  all  of  the  group  that  was  at  the  Hay-Adams 
go  over  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building? 

A     Most  of  it  did.   I  wasn't  keeping  count. 

0     But  it  was  your  sense  that  basically  the  group 
transferred  from  the  Hay-Adams  to  the  OEOB? 


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A     Yes. 

0     What  happened  after  you  arrived  at  the  OEOB? 

A     We  waited  in  the  conference  room  for  a  short 
period  of  time  and  then  Lieutenant  Colonel  North  arrived. 

0     Was  anyone  with  him? 

A     Not  to  my  recollection,  although  he  was  assisted 
at  some  point  by  what  I  took  to  be  an  aide  who  brought  in 
some  materials  or  helped  him  with  the  slide  projector 
machine. 

0     Had  you  met  Colonel  North  before? 

A     No. 

0     Were  you  introduced  to  him  at  this  conference 
room? 

A     Yes. 

0     Was  he  introduced  to  all  of  the  participants? 

A     Let  me  withdraw  my  answer.   I  am  not  sure 
whether  we  were  introduced  or  not.   I  think  he  was 
introduced  to  us,  but  I  am  not  sure  if  we  were  introduced 
to  him.   I  don't  really  recall  that. 

0     Who  introduced  Colonel  North  to  the  group? 

A     I  believe  it  was  either  Mr.  Channell  or 


Ms.  McLaughlin. 


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I 
I 

.ikepaulus  1  ;       Q      Do  you  recall  what  was  said  in  this 

2  introduction? 

3  A     Not  specifically.   No. 

4  0     Can  you  give  me  a  general  sense  of  what  was 

5  j   said? 

6  A     This  was  Lieutenant  Colonel  Oliver  North  who  was 

7  I   with  the  National  Security  Council,  who  was  going  to  give 

8  j   us  a  presentation  on  the  political  and  military  situation 

9  t   in  Nicaragua. 

10  I       Q     Had  you  heard  of  Colonel  North  before  the 

11  I   meeting? 
I 

12  I       A     No.   Ms.  McLaughlin  may  have  mentioned  his  name 
I 

13  I   to  me  on  the  phone  when  she  invited  me  to  come  down.   I 

14  I   think  she  did,  but  I  had  never  met  him  and  I  didn't  know 

15  who  that  was. 

16  0     You  hadn't  read  his  name  in  the  press  before? 

17  A     No. 

18  0     You  weren't  familiar  with  his  name  prior  to  your 

19  conversation  with  Ms.  McLaughlin? 

20  A     That's  right. 

21  0     Approximately  how  long  was  the  introduction  of 
22 


Colonel  North? 


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10  01  01     1 

.ikepaulus  1         A     Only  a  few  seconds. 

I 

2  i       0     And  then  Colonel  North  spoke? 

3  '        A      Yes. 

4  j       0     Approximately  how  long  did  he  speak? 

5  j       A     About  half  an  hour  or  45  minutes. 
I 

6  j       0     Did  anyone  else  speak  other  than  Colonel  North 

7  I  at  this  meeting? 

8  !       A   ,  No. 

9  I       0     You  mentioned  an  aide  that  was  with  Colonel 

i 

10  j  North.   What  did  the  aide  do? 

11  I       A     As  I  recall,  there  was  some  problem  with  the 

12  slide  projecting  machine,  or  perhaps  he  had  brought  the 

13  1  wrong  slides.   I  can't  remember.   There  was  some  initial 

14  I  problem  in  getting  set  up.   As  I  recall,  he  telephoned  an 
1 

15  I  aide  who  came  up  and  assisted  him  in  setting  up  the 

i 

16  presentation.   The  aide  then  left. 

17  0     1  take  it  from  your  answer  that  a  part  of  his 

18  presentation  was  the  showing  of  slides. 

19  A     Yes. 

20  0     Would  you  describe  his  presentation  to  the 

21  group?  What  did  he  say?  What  sort  of  slides  did  he  show? 

22  A     The  basic  theme  of  his  presentation  was  the 


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16 

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19 

20 

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18 


Russian  influence  in  Nicaragua  and  the  fact  that  the 
Nicaraguan  government  was  really  an  arm  of  the  Russians  or 
an  arm  of  an  organized  communist  effort  to  gain  a  further 
foothold  on  the  American  continent. 

He  described,  for  example,  an  airfield  that  had 
been  built,  that  was  built  with  Eastern  Bloc  aid.   It  was 
disguised  as  a  civilian  airfield  but  was  in  fact  a  military 
airfield.   He  indicated  that  that  is  the  airfield  that  the 
Russians  would  use  to  recover  their  Backfire  bombers  in 
case  of  an  atomic  war  with  the  United  States;  given  that 
they  wouldn't  make  it  all  the  way  back  to  Russia,  they 
could  recover  their  bombers  in  Nicaragua. 

I  think  he  indicated  that  there  were  missions 
currently  being  flownout  of  Cuba,  Russian  missions  up  the 
East  Coast  of  the  United  States.   Some  kind  of  large 
Russian  aircraft  that  flies  just  outside  the  12-mile  limit 
every  day,  up  and  back.   There  was  some  kind  of  a  large 
device  on  the  outside.   Nobody  knows  what  is  inside  the 
device,  whether  it's  a  weapon  or  surveillance  equipment  of 
some  kind.   Our  jets  fly  right  along  with  it  and  back 
again.   He  said  this  airfield  would  allow  them  to  fly  the 
same  kind  of  missions  up  the  West  Coast  as  they  are  now 


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likepaul'JS  1 

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13  I 
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I 


19 


flying  up  the  East  Coast- 
He  indicated  that  there  was  a  massive  effort 
underway  to  enlarge  the  harbors  of  Nicaragua  and  that  this 
was  all  being  done  with  Eastern  Bloc  aid  of  one  kind  and 
another. 


He  showed  photographs  of  what  appeared  to  be 
cabinet  level  Nicaraguan  government  officials  involved  in 
dope  smuggling  operations.   He  indicated  that  the 
Nicaraguan  government  activities  were  to  some  extent 
financed  by  involvement  in  the  drug  trade. 

He  talked  about  the  refugee  problem  that  was 
beginning  to  be  experienced  by  the  neighboring  countries 
around  Nicaragua  and  described  the  potential  for  a  massive 
refugee  problem  as  the  communists  began  to  take  over  more 
and  more  in  Central  America;  how  typically  when  a  communist 
government  takes  over  somewhere  between  10  and  20  percent 


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10  01  01 

.iiikepaulus  1  '     of  the  population  leaves  the  country,  and  that  would  mean 

2  I   that  there  would  be  millions  and  millions  of  refugees 

3  i   coming  into  the  United  States  and  other  neighboring  Central 

4  I   American  countries  from  Nicaragua  and  other  nearby 

! 

5  I   countries  as  the  communists  took  over. 
j 

6  i  He  indicted  that  the  military  equipment  that  was 

7  I   being  supplied  to  the  Nicaraguans  by  the  Cubans  and  the 

8  {   Russians  and  the  various  other  people  who  were  supplying 

9  j   them  was  not  merely  defensive  equipment  but  was  offensive 

I 

10  in  nature,  was  the  kind  of  equipment  that  could  be  used  to 

11  expand  past  Nicaragua. 

12  I  I  forget  the  exact  details,  but  I  think  there 
I 

13  j   were  a  couple  of  covert  Nicaraguan  agents  who  were  caught 

14  I   in  a  nearby  country  who  were  disguised  as  Americans.   I 

15  think  they  had  drugs  in  their  car  and  they  were  on  their 

16  way  somewhere  on  a  secret  mission  for  the  Nicaraguan 

17  government;  that  they  had  American  identification  on  them; 

18  and  they  were  made  to  look  like  American  agents  but  they 

19  were  in  fact  Nicaraguan  agents. 

20  As  I  recall,  those  are  the  highlights  of  his 

21  presentation. 

22  Q  What  slides  did  he  show? 


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21 


A     The  one  I  remember  in  particular  was  the 
photograph  of  one  of  the  ministers  of  Nicaragua  involved  in 
the  dope  smuggling  operation  at  the  airport,  involved  with 
a  group  of  people  who  were  loading  drugs  on  an  airplane.   I 
don't  specifically  recall  other  slides.   There  were  a 
number  of  slides  and  maps  and  satellite  photographs. 

0     Did  he  talk  any  about  the  resistance  activities 
in  Nicaragua? 

A     Yes. 

0     What  did  he  say  about  that? 

A     I  don't  recall  the  specifics  of  what  he  said. 
The  substance  of  what  he  said  was  that  they  were  having  a 
difficult  time  because  of  the  intermittent  supply  of  funds 
from  the  United  States. 

0     Did  he  discuss  any  specific  needs  of  the 
resistance  fighters? 

A     I  think  he  described  some  hospital  needs.  As 
far  as  I  recall,  at  that  time  he  didn't  discuss  other 
needs.   As  I  recall,  at  that  time  he  also  described  the 
recent  arrival  in  Nicaragua  of  the  Soviet  HIND  helicopter 
gunships,  which  were  making  life  even  more  difficult  and 
dangerous  for  the  resistance  fighters. 


s.  Inc. 


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.ikepaulus    1 
2 

3  : 

I 
I 

4  I 

I 

5  i 

! 

6  I 

7  I 

i 

8  I 

I 

9 

10 

I 
11  i 

13  j 

14  I 
15 

16  i 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


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0      Did  he  comment  in  any  way  about  a  possible 
response  to  the  HIND  gunships? 

A     Not  at  that  time,  as  far  as  I  recall. 

Q     Were  there  any  questions  from  any  of  the 
contributors? 

A     Yes. 

0     What  questions  do  you  recall? 

A     I  don't  recall  what  the  questions  were. 

0     Did  anyone  ask  "how  can  we  help?"  in  substance? 

A     Not  at  that  time. 

Q     Most  of  Colonel  North's  comments  that  you  have 
described  concern  a  serious  problem  in  Nicaragua  and 
various  aspects  of  the  problem.   What  did  he  comment  in  the 
way  of  a  possible  solution  to  the  problem? 

A     As  I  recall,  there  was  some  talk  about  the 
congressional  vote  on  resuming  aid  to  the  contras.   As  far 
as  I  recall,  he  didn't  propose  a  solution  at  that  time. 

0     Did  Mr.  Channell  make  any  comments  either  during 
Colonel  North's  remarks  or  after  Colonel  North's  remarks 
while  you  were  in  the  conference  room? 

A     Not  that  I  recall. 

0     How  did  the  meeting  conclude? 


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2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

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9 

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13 

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A     After  a  brief  question  period  at  the  end  of  the 
presentation  Colonel  North  left  and  the  rest  of  us  left. 

0     Where  did  you  go? 

A     We  went  back  to  the  Hay-Adams. 

0     Approximately  what  time  was  it  at  this  point? 

A     I  don't  recall  exactly.   I'd  say  between  six  and 
seven  in  the  evening. 

Q     What  happened  after  you  got  back  to  the 
Hay-Adams? 

A     There  was  a  cocktail  party  for  this  group  that  _ 
had  been  to  the  presentation. 

Q     Did  anyone  else  attend  the  cocktail  party? 

A     I  recall  Mr.  Miller  was  there. 

0     Is  that  Richard  Miller? 

A     I  don't  recall  his  first  name.   The  one  who 
recently  pled  guilty  to,  I  think,  conspiracy  charges. 

0     That  is  the  Mr.  Miller  of  International  Business 
Communications,  or  IBC? 

A     Yes . 

Q     Was  the  first  time  you  believe  you  met 
Mr.  Miller  at  the  cocktail  party? 


I  th 


(^  yes 


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•10  01  01     i 
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2  , 

i 

3  i 

4  I 

5  i 

7  : 

8 

9  I 
i 

10  I 

12  i 

14 

I 

15  j 

I 

16  ! 

17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


UNCUSSinED 


24 


0     Who  introduced  you  to  Mr.  Miller? 

A  I  don't  recall.  It  was  just  a  group  of  people 
and  everyone  was  being  introduced  to  everyone  else.  So  I 
don't  recall  exactly  how  I  was  introduced. 

0     Other  than  Mr.  Miller,  did  anyone  else  attend 
the  cocktail  party  who  had  not  been  at  the  briefing  or  the 
afternoon  meeting  at  the  Hay-Adams? 

A     I  seem  to  remember  a  woman  named  Angela  who 
worked,  for  NEPL. 

Q  Would  that  be  Angela  Davis? 

A     I  dsn't  know  her  last  name. 

There  may  have  been  one  or  two  other  people 
there.   I  don't  recall  specifically. 

Q     How  long  did  the  cocktail  party  continue? 

A     Half  an  hour.   Something  like  that.   Forty-five 
minutes . 

0     You  remember  Mr.  Miller  and  Angela  and  the  group 
that  had  been  there  in  the  afternoon. 

A     Yes. 

0     Anyone  else? 

A     In  my  notes  I  had  the  names  Cliff  Smith  and  Kris 
Littledale,  Spitz  Channell,  Dan  Conrad  written  down.   Those 


.  Inc 


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10  01  01 
.ikepaulus  1     were  all  people  that  I  met.   Again,  I  don't  specifically 

2  I   recall  whether  they  were  all  there  before  the  presentation 

3  '   and  after,  or  whether  maybe  some  had  come  after  and  hadn't 

4  I   been  there  before. 

i 

5  I        0      You  said,  in  your  notes.   Did  you  make 

6  j   contemporaneous  notes  of  the  meeting  that  you  attended  in 

7  Washington  in  March  1986? 

8  j        A     With  Colonel  North,  you  mean? 

9  !       0     Both  with  Colonel  North  and  the  meeting  at  the 

10  Hay-Adams.   You  indicated  your  notes  indicate  that  you  had 

11  met  Mr.  Conrad,  Mr.  Littledale,  and  so  forth. 

12  A     They  weren't  extensive  notes.   I  simply  noted 

13  I   the  names  of  a  couple  people  that  I  had  talked  to,  that  I 

14  wanted  to  remember  in  my  appointment  calendar.   I  didn't 
i 

15  [   make  an  outline  of  what  was  discussed  at  the  meeting  or 
i 

16  anything  like  that. 

17  0     Is  this  a  calendar  that  you  carry  in  your 

18  pocket? 

19  A     Yes. 

20  0     So  when  you  would  meet  people  you  would  note 

21  their  name  in  the  book? 

22  A     Yes.   If  I  wanted  to  remember  their  names,  I 


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•10  01  01 

likepaulus  1    would  note  them  down. 

2  I       0     That  is  the  book  that  you  have  given  to  the 

3  i   independent  counsel? 

4  A     Yes. 

5  0     And  you  don't  have  a  copy  of  that  now? 

6  I       A     Not  now. 

7  I       0     Did  Colonel  North  attend  the  cocktail  party? 

8  1        A      No. 

I 

9  I       0.    What  do  you  recall  were  the  subjects  that  were 

10  discussed  at  the  cocktail  party? 

11  I       A     Of  course  everyone  was  talking  in  one  way  or 
I 

12  i   another  about  the  presentation.   At  a  certain  point  during 
I 

13  I   the  cocktail  party  I  indicated  that  I  wished  that  there  was 

14  some  way  to  supply  arms  to  the  contras. 

15  0     To  whom  did  you  say  that? 

16  A     I  think  it  was  to  either  Cliff  Smith  or  Kris 

17  Littledale.  Without  seeing  a  picture,  I  couldn't  remember 

18  who  it  was  that  I  first  mentioned  it  to,  but  these  are  the 

19  names  that  I  have. 

20  0     Prior  to  this  cocktail  party,  Mr.  O'Boyle,  had 

21  you  given  any  indication  to  Ms.  McLaughlin  or  anyone  else 

22  in  NEPL  that  you  were  prepared  to  make  a  contribution? 


UNCussire 

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8r,io  01  01 

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2 

3 

4 

5  ! 
6 
7 

8  ! 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


wujsife 


27 


A      No. 

0      Did  you  indicate  during  the  cocktail  party  that 
you  were  prepared  to  make  a  contribution? 

A      Yes.   Let  me  rephrase  that.   I  didn't  commit 
myself  at  that  point,  but  I  indicated  that  I  was 
interested. 

0     What  did  you  say  and  to  whom  did  you  say  it? 

A      That  is  what  I  was  just  describing.   My 
indication  to  either  Mr.  Smith  or  Mr.  Littledale  was  that  I 
would  like  to  be  able  to  help  the  contras  by  supplying  arms 
of  some  kind,  and  I  asked  if  there  was  some  way  to  do  that. 

0     Did  you  mention  a  dollar  figure? 

A     A  dollar  figure  was  discussed  but  in  the  context 
of  a  specific  weapon. 

0     What  was  the  dollar  figure? 

A     $20,000. 

0     What  was  the  weapon? 

A     A  Blowpipe  antiaircraft  missile. 

0     Who  mentioned  this  type  of  weapon? 

A     It  was  the  person  that  I  brought  the  subject  up 
with.   In  other  words,  I  said  is  there  something  that  can 
be  done,  is  there  some  way  to  contribute.   I  don't  recall 


ce-Tederal  Reporters,  Inc. 


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'10  01  01 

i 
.ikepaulus  1  ■ 

2  ; 

3  ] 

i 

4  I 

I 
I 

5  : 

6  I 

7  I 

8  ' 

I 

9  I 

10  ] 

11  I 

12  I 

13  I 

14  i 

15 

i 
16  1 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


28 


the  exact  words,  but  I  indicated  a  willingness  to 
contribute  and  a  curiosity  as  to  how  much  was  needed  and 
how  much  these  different  kinds  of  weapons  cost,  and  I  got 
the  information  back  from  this  person  that,  for  example, 
for  $20,000  you  could  buy  a  Blowpipe  antiaircraft  missile. 
That's  the  general  trend  of  the  conversation. 

0     And  you  believe  that  was  with  Mr.  Smith  or 
Mr.  Littledale? 

A     I  think  so,  yes. 

0     Do  you  recall  prior  to  this  cocktail  party  a 
discussion  of  a  contribution  of  $10,000  to  NEPL? 

A     I  received  from  NEPL  at  some  point  their  package 
of  material.   I  don't  recall  when  it  was.   There  may  have 
been  sort  of  a  general  request  in  their  standard  mailing, 
you  might  say,  that  I  am  not  aware  of  at  this  particular 
time.   But  as  far  as  I  remember,  prior  to  this  discussion  I 
have  just  described  there  was  no  discussion  of  a  specific 
amount. 

As  we  are  talking  about  it  it  is  starting  to 
come  back  a  little  bit.   I  seem  to  remember  Ms.  McLaughlin 
saying  something  about  contributors  who  are  willing  to  give 
at  least  $10,000,  something  like  tha^  and  that  I  might 


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.ikepaulus  1   :  fall  into  that  category,  but  I  don't  recall  specifically 
2  I  when  that  was  said  or  exactly  what  was  said. 


3 

I 

4  i 

i 

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6  ' 

7  ' 
I 

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10 
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20 
21 
22 


Q     Your  telephone  conversation  with  Ms.  McLaughlin 
was  the  day  before  the  meeting;  is  that  right? 

A     Right. 

0     You  recall  there  was  at  least  some  discussion  of 
a  $10,000  contribution  in  that  telephone  conversation? 

A     I  remember  something  about  a  discussion  of  a 
$10,000  contribution.   It's  a  very  vague  recollection.   I 
don't  recall  exactly  when  it  was  said. 

0     But  it  was  a  conversation  with  Ms.  McLaughlin? 

A     Again,  this  is  a  hazy  recollection,  but  I  think 
so. 

0     And  it  could  have  been  in  the  telephone 
conversation? 

A     Yes. 

0     Or  it  could  have  been  in  your  meeting  with  her 
in  the  limousine? 

A     Yes.  As  I  recall,  and  this  is  very  indistinct, 
I  think  she  might  have  said  something  along  the  lines  that 
they  were  looking  for  people  who  could  give  at  least 
$10,000,  or  something  like  that.   It  wasn't  so  much  a 


mmm 


RS,  Inc. 


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•^10  01  01  ^'  '^  30 

..likepaulus  1  !  direct  pitch  for  a  specific  contribution;  it  was  more  that 

2  i  they  were  looking  for  a  general  category  of  contributors. 

3  0     Was  this,  then,  the  general  category  that  would 

4  be  invited  to  the  meetings  at  the  White  House? 

5  A      I  think  so.   But  again,  this  is  a  very  hazy 

I 

6  I  recollection  of  a  very  brief  discussion.   So  I'm  not  sure. 

i 

7  I       0     Other  than  your  discussion  at  the  cocktail  party 

8  with  Mr.  Smith  or  Mr.  Littledale  about  the  missile  with  a 
I 

9  I  price  of  $20,000,  did  you  have  any  other  discussions  during 

10  j  the  cocktail  party  with  respect  to  military  support  for  the 

I 

11  I  contras? 
I 

12  j       A     I  must  say,  honestly  I  don't  remember 
I 

13  specifically  during  the  cocktail  party.   The  general  theme, 

i 

14  I  can  say,  was  about  military  support  for  the  contras. 

15  Mainly  whether  Congress  was  going  to  approve  military 

16  support  for  the  contras.   So  that  was  being  talked  about. 

17  0     Did  you  talk  with  Mr.  Channell  during  the 

18  cocktail  party? 

19  A     Yes. 

20  0     What  did  Mr.  Channell  say  that  you  recall? 

21  A     Nothing  that  I  can  recall.   There  were  no 

22  substantive  conversations.   It  was  just  a  cocktail  party 


ceTederal  Reporters,  Inc. 


521 


o-lO  01  01 
..ikepaulus  1 
2 

3  I 
4 

5  j 

6 

7 

8 

9, 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

I 


UNCUSSIFIED 


31 


and  socializing. 

0      How  long  did  the  cocktail  party  continue? 

A      Half  an  hour  or  45  minutes. 

Q     What  happened  after  the  cocktail  party? 

A      I  had  not  originally  been  planning  to  stay  for 
the  evening.   I  was  going  to  go  back  to  New  York  after  this 
presentation.   I  think  it  was  during  the  cocktail  party 
that  Mr.  Channel  pressed  me  to  stay,  and  I  agreed  to  stay 
for  dinner,  which  was  following  the  cocktail  party,  and 
then  overnight  rather  than  rush  to  get  back  to  New  York 
that  evening.   Either  he  or  Jane  McLaughlin  indicated  that 
they  had  gone  ahead  and  made  reservations  for  me  right 
there  at  the  Hay-Adams. 

Q     Do  you  remember  if  this  urging  by  Mr.  Channell 
for  you  to  stay  for  dinner  and  overnight  occurred  after 
your  discussion  with  Mr.  Smith  or  Mr.  Littledale  about  the 
missile? 

A     I  don't  remember  if  it  was  before  or  after. 

0     Did  a  dinner  then  follow  the  cocktail  party? 

A     Yes. 

0     Where  was  that  held? 

A     Right  there  in  the  same  place. 


Ace-Federal  KEPORTERS.  Inc. 


522 


vnmim 


°T10    01    01 

..likepaulus  1  \ 

2     I 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


32 


0     Same  room? 

A     I  can't  remember  whether  it  was  exactly  the  same 
room  or  not,  but  it  was  right  there  in  the  Hay-Adams. 

Q     Were  there  a  number  of  small  tables  in  the  room, 
or  did  everyone  sit  at  one  table? 

A     There  were  a  number  of  small  tables. 

0     How  many  people  were  at  your  table? 

A     As  I  recall,  there  were  six,  including  myself. 
There  may  have  been  eight,  but  I  think  it  was  six. 


0 
A 
0 
A 
people 
0 
A 
0 


Do  you  recall  who  sat  next  to  you? 

Mr.  Miller  sat  next  to  me. 

Did  Mr.  Channell  sit  next  to  you? 

No.   I  don't  recall  the  names  of  the  other 


Did  Ms.  McLaughlin  sit  at  your  table? 

I  don't  think  so. 

How  would  you  describe  the  appearance  of 
Mr.  Miller,  his  height,  hair  color,  and  so  forth? 

A     He's  medium  height,  I  would  say,  between  5-10 
and  6  feet  tall,  blond  hair,  somewhat  strikingly  blond 
hair,  which  is  combed  back.   I  would  say  he  is  in  his  early 
30s,  medium  build,  neither  heavyset  nor  slim. 


<^'-rFDERAL  REPORTERS,  InC. 


523 


UNCUSSIFIED 


10  01  01 

likepaulus  1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

.7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


33 


0     During  the  dinner  or  after  the  dinner  did  anyone 
make  a  speech? 

A     Not  that  I  recall.   After  the  dinner  there  was  a 
presentation.   Not  exactly  a  speech. 

0     Who  made  that  and  what  was  it? 

A     There  were  television  commercials  that  were 
being  produced  by  NEPL  or  funded  by  NEPL,  and  they  were  in 
support  of  the  contras.   A  number  of  these  television 
commercials  were  shown  to  the  group. 

0     Did  Mr.  Channell  give  any  comments  on  the 
commercials? 

A     Someone  did.   I  don't  recall  whether  it  was 
Mr.  Channell  or  Mr.  Miller  or  someone  else  in  that  group. 
But  there  were  some  comments  that  were  made*, 

Q     What  were  the  comments? 

A     As  I  recall,  along  the  lines  of  urging  the 
people  present  to  fund  the  airing  of  these  commercials.   I 
remember  one  particularly  dramatic  fact  was  that  the 
photographer  who  took  some  of  the  footage  for  one  of  the 
commercials  had  been  killed  shortly  after  he  had  taken  the 
footage,  because  it  had  been  taken  inside  Nicaragua  and 
when  he  had  been  discovered  by  the  Nicaraguan  authorities 


.  Inc. 


524 


UNCUSSIFIED 


34 


-•lO  01  01 

.nikepaulus  1    he  had  been  killed. 

2  I       0     How  many  commercials  were  shown? 

3  1       A     I  think  it  was  three  or  four. 

4  j       Q     What  was  the  subject  matter  of  the  commercials 

5  I   that  you  saw? 

6  I       A     As  I  recall,  they  were  different  slants  on 

7  support  of  the  contras  in  one  respect  or  another. 

8  '       0     Were  you  told  the  purpose  of  the  commercials? 

9  1       A     To  drum  up  support  for  the  resumption  of  funding 

10  I   for  the  contras. 

I 

11  [       0     Was  this  to  be  support  in  Congress  for  the 

12  i   resumption  of  funding? 

13  I       A     Grass  roots  support  for  the  support  of  the 

I 

14  i   contras. 

15  I       0     Were  you  told  that  these  commercials  were  going 
! 

16  to  be  directed  to  any  particular  media  markets? 

17  A     I  don't  really  remember  if  that  was  discussed. 

18  Any  particular  places  that  they  were  to  be 

19  shown,  you  mean? 

20  Q     Yes. 

21  A     Not  that  I  remember. 

22  From  my  notes  here,  areas  of  legislators  who 


UNCmSSIHED 

Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 


525 


'10  01  01 
likepaulus  1 
2 
3 
4 
5 

6  ! 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


IINCUSSIFIED 


35 


were  opposed  to  the  contras. 

MR.  NEWMAN:   Just  SO  the  record  is  clear,  they 
are  not  his  notes. 

THE  WITNESS:   My  counsel's  notes. 
I  don't  recall  whether  this  is  an  inference  on 
my  part  or  whether  this  was  actually  said,  but  my 
understanding  was  to  go  to  those  areas  where  there  was  a 
lack  of  support  for  the  contras  and  to  put  these 
commercials  in  there. 

BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

0     During  this  dinner  were  contributions  sought  for 
that  purpose? 

A     As  I  recall,  yes. 

0     By  whom? 

A     By  NEPL  as  an  organization.   I  seem  to  remember 
some  printed  material  that  asked  for  a  minimum  contribution 
of  $30,000.   I  don't  recall  if  there  was  a  person  who 
actually  made  that  pitch. 

0     And  this  was  to  be  used,  you  understood,  to  fund 
these  television  commercials  that  were  shown  after  the 


dinner? 


Yes, 


UNtUiSSra 

Ace-Fedfrai  Reporters.  Imc. 


526 


CNMjm 


OSIO  01  01  I                                    "'             36 

...ikepaulus  1  !       0     That  was  the  purpose  of  the  contribution  pitch 

2  i  in  the  printed  material? 

3  i  A     Yes. 

4  I  I  should  say  that  in  my  counsel's  notes  I  have 

5  in  areas  where  there  were  legislators  who  were  not  in 

6  support  of  the  contras,  to  place  the  commercials  there  to 

7  influence  them  to  support  the  contras. 

8  0  Were  there  any  particular  legislators  mentioned 

9  I  or  any  particular  districts  mentioned? 

10  A  Not  that  I  recall. 

11  Let  me  put  that  another  way.   I  think  there  may 

12  have  been  some  mentioned,  but  I  don't  recall  who  they  were. 

13  i  Q     Who  mentioned  them? 

I 

14  A  I  don't  remember. 

15  0  Would  it  be  Mr.  Channell? 

16  A  I  really  don't  remember  which  one  of  the  group 

17  might  have  mentioned  them. 

18  0  During  the  dinner  did  Mr.  Channell  come  to  your 

19  table  and  speak  to  you  at  any  point? 

20  A  Yes. 

21  0  What  did  he  say? 

'      22  A     This  was  near  the  end  of  the  dinner.   I  think  it 


wmwL 


527 


UNCLASSIFIED 


'10  01  01  i  37 

.ikepaulus  1    may  have  been  before  the  presentation  of  the  coiranercials . 

2  j  He  came  over  and  he  said  that  he  understood  that  I  had 

3  offered  to  possibly  make  what  they  considered  a  large 

4  I   contribution  with  the  intent  of  supplying  arms  of  some  kind 

5  to  the  contras.   He  said  that  there  was  a  small  group  of 

I 

6  I   people  in  the  United  States  that  made  this  kind  of 

7  !   contribution.   He  indicated  perhaps  I  might  want  to  join 
j 

8  ^   this  group  or  become  one  of  this  small  group  of  people  that 

9  in  effect  supported  the  President's  desire  to  support  the 

10  I   contras  in  this  way.   He  asked  if  I  would  meet  with  him  and 

11  I   Colonel  North  again  in  the  morning  for  breakfast. 

12  0     What  did  you  say? 

13  A     I  said  I  would  meet  with  them. 

14  i       0     When  he  made  these  comments  to  you  did  he  come 
i 

15  I   to  your  table  and  sit  down  In  an  empty  chair,  or  did  he 
i 

16  I   come  next  to  your  chair  and  stand  and  make  these  comments 

17  to  you?  Physically  what  was  the  arrangement? 

18  A     As  1  recall,  there  was  an  empty  chair.   I  think 

19  it  may  have  been  the  chair  that  Mr.  Mil^r  had  previously 

20  occupied.   Toward  the  end  of  the  dinner  people  were  moving 

21  around  a  little  bit.   He  pulled  the  chair  up  and  slid  over 

22  next  to  me  and  said  this  out  of  earshot  of  anyone  else. 


UNCLASSIFIED 

Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 


528 


sgio  01  01 
..likepaulus  1 
2 
3 
4 
5 

6  i 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


UNCUSHD 


33 


Q     Did  he  identify  any  of  the  other  contributors 
that  were  in  this  special  group? 

A     Not  at  that  time. 

0     Did  he  later? 

A      Yes. 

0     Who  did  he  identify  later? 

A     He  mentioned  one  of  the  Hunt  brothers  of  Texas, 
the  well  known  oil  millionaire  Hunt  brothers.   I  think  it 
was  Bunker  Hunt.   The  name  Ramsey  was  also  mentioned  in  a 
later  conversation.   I  don't  recall  whether  it  was 
Mr.  Channell  or  Colonel  North  who  mentioned  him.   There  was 
a  couple  who  was  identified  who  had  bought  some  radio 
equipment  for  the  contras,  but  he  didn't  mention  their 
names.   He  didn't  identify  them  specifically. 

0     Did  he  later  identify  the  amount  of 
contributions  from  Mr.  Hunt? 

A     I  seem  to  remember  him  mentioning  a  figure  over 
a  million  dollars. 

0     What  about  Mr.  Ramsey? 

A     I  don't  think  he  mentioned  specific  amounts  by 
Mr.  Ramsey. 

0     Did  you  know  Mr.  Ramsey? 


uussra. 


529 


UNCUSSiriED 


9^10    01    01 

..likepaulus    1 

A 

2     i 

0 

3 

A 

39 


No. 


Did  you  know  Mr.  Hunt? 

Members  of  my  family  know  the  Hunt  family, 
4  I   because  we're  both  from  the  same  town  and  in  some  ways  in 


5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


the  same  business.   I  may  have  met  him  in  the  distant  past, 
but  I  don't  really  know  him. 

0     Going  back  to  the  dinner  at  the  Hay-Adams  after 
the  briefing,  Mr.  Channell  invited  you  to  breakfast  the 
next  morning  with  Colonel  North  and  you  accepted  the 
invitation.   What  occurred  that  evening  after  this,  that 
you  recall? 

A     Nothing.   After  the  presentation  the  NEPL  group 
broke  up.   Everybody  went  their  separate  ways.   I  went  to 
bed  upstairs  in  the  Hay-Adams. 

0     Did  you  meet  the  next  morning  with  Mr.  Channell 
and  Colonel  North? 

A     Yes . 

0     Anyone  else  present? 

A     No. 

0     Where  was  the  meeting? 

A     At  the  Hay-Adams,  in  the  main  dining  room. 

0     What  time  did  you  meet? 


m 


PORTERS,  Inc. 


530 


UNCUSSIFIEO 


no  01  01  40 

..likepaulus  I  '  A     It  was  approximately  eight  in  the  morning. 

2  I        0      How  long  did  the  meeting  continue? 

3  I       A     I  believe  that  Colonel  North  was  there  for  about 

4  I   half  an  hour  and  then  he  left.   As  I  recall,  Mr.  Channell 
I 

1 

5  I   was  there  before  Colonel  North  arrived  and  after  he  left. 

6  j   I  was  with  Mr.  Channell  perhaps  a  total  of  an  hour  to  an 

7  I   hour  and  a  half  and  with  Colonel  North  for  half  an  hour  to 

8  1   45  minutes. 

9  i       0     starting  with  your  meeting  with  Mr.  Channell 
! 

10  before  Colonel  North  arrived,  what  did  Mr.  Channell  say? 

11  A     I  don't  recall  specifically  what  he  said.   My 

12  i   general  recollection  is  that  it  was  something  of  a 

13  .   continuation  of  the  discussion  that  we  had  the  night  before 

14  j   after  dinner,  which  was  that  there  was  this  small  group  of 

15  people  who  supported  the  President's  wish  to  support  the 

16  contras  and  were  giving  money  for  weapons  and  that  I  might 

17  join  that  group. 

18  He  also  indicated  that  he  had  checked  me  out 

19  overnight.   By  that,  I  assume  that  he  meant  that  it  is 

20  possible  using  the  government  computer  system  to  check 

21  somebody  out  pretty  fast.   I  don't  know  whether  this  was  a 

22  fund-raising  ploy  or  whether  this  was  for  real,  but  I 


UNCLASflED 

Ace-Pederal  Reporters. 


Inc 


531 


mmm 


41 


310    01    01 

I 

.iiikepaulus  1  thought  it  was  for  real  at  the  time.   He  said  that  this 

2  ;  group  consisted  mainly  of  reputable  people;  it  wasn't  a 

3  :  group  of  just  anybody;  he  said  there  were  a  lot  of  people 

i 

4  !  who  wanted  to  join  the  group,  perhaps  people  with  criminal 

5  j  records  and  whatever,  but  they  wouldn't  allow  anybody  like 

6  j  that  in  this  group.   I  assumed  by  what  he  said  that  he 

I 

7  I  meant  he  had  checked  me  on  some  kind  of  a  national  security 

8  i  computer  setup  and  found  that  I  checked  out. 

9  I       0     Did  he  explain  the  reason  you  were  going  to  be 

10  meeting  with  Colonel  North? 

11  j       A     I  don't  know  if  he  in  so  many  words  gave  an 
I 

12  j  explanation  for  the  reason.   My  understanding  was  we  were 

13  to  continue  this  discussion  about  the  supply  of  weapons  to 

I 

14  the  contras. 

15  I       0     How  long  was  this  discussion  with  Mr.  Channell 

16  1  before  Colonel  North  arrived? 

17  A     It  was  brief.   I  don't  even  know  whether  you 

18  would  quite  call  it  a  discussion. 

19  0     Five  or  ten  minutes? 

20  A     Something  like  that.   We  were  really  waiting  for 

21  Colonel  North  to  come  and  talking  briefly  in  the  meanwhile. 

22  0     What  hAOPengd  after  Colonel  North  arrived? 


Ace-Federal  Reporters.  Inc. 


532 


UNCLASSIFIED 


10  01  01  i  42 

.ikepaulus  1         A     As  I  recall,  Mr.  Channell  indicated  to  Colonel 

2  i  North  that  I  was  willing  to  provide  funds  for  the  purchase 

3  I   of  weapons  and  Colonel  North  began  to  give  a  detailed 

4  account  of  what  were  the  weapons  needs  of  the  contras  at 

5  that  particular  time. 

6  I  Also,  I  should  say  Colonel  North  indicated  that 

7  i   he  personally  could  not  ask  for  money,  that  he  was  not  part 

8  of  a  fund-raising  effort  himself,  that  he  was  simply  there, 

9  1   as  I  recall,  to  provide  technical  information.   He  made  it 

10  very  clear  that  he  could  not  ask  for  money  because  he  was 

I 

11  I  working  for  the  government. 
! 

12  i       0  .   Do  you  know  what  prompted  that  comment?   Was 

13  I   that  in  response  to  some  comment  you  made  or  Mr.  Channell 

14  i  made? 

15  A     1  don't  think  it  was  in  response  to  a  specific 

16  comment;  it  was  more  in  response  to  the  situation.   Because 

17  there  I  was,  considering  giving  money,  and  there  was 

18  Mr.  Channell  and  Colonel  North  there,  and  he  wanted  to  make 

19  the  relationship  clear  to  me  that  he  was  not  asking  for 

20  money  and  that  he  could  not  ask  for  money  as  a 

21  representative  of  the  United  States  Government. 

22  0     You  say  he  described  the  weapons  needs  of  the 


UNtiASsro 

Ace-Federal  Reporters.  Inc. 


533 


UNCLASSIFIED 


'10   01   01 


43 


..likepaulus    1  contras. 

2  !       A     Yes. 

3  '       0     Did  he  refer  to  any  document? 

4  I       A     As  I  recall,  he  had  a  small  notebook  which  he 

5  !  referred  to  from  time  to  time. 

6  j       0     Did  he  show  you  the  notebook? 

7  ;       A     No.   He  pulled  it  out  and  looked  at  it,  but  he 

8  didn't  show  it  to  me  so  that  I  could  see  what  was  written 

9  in  it, 

10  I       0     What  needs  did  he  identify? 

11  :       A     He  indicated  the  contras  needed  several  million 

12  rounds  of  NATO  ammunition.   I  think  it  was  called  NATO  7 

13  ;   point  something.   It  was  a  description  of  the  kind  of 

14  ammunition.   I  think  at  that  point  he  also  indicated  that 

15  they  needed  another  kind  of  ammunition,  which  was  an 

16  Eastern  Bloc  type  of  ammunition.   He  explained  that  the 

17  contras  often  used  Eastern  Bloc  weapons  because  that  is  the 

18  nature  of  counterinsurgency,  to  use  the  weapons  of  the 

19  group  in  power.   He  indicated  that  they  needed  antiaircraft 

20  missiles  to  shoot  down  the  helicopter  gunships  that  were 

21  being  supplied  by  the  Russians.   And  there  was  some 

I 

22  discussion  about  different  types  of  antiaircraft  missiles. 


cf-Federal  Reporters.  Inc 


534 


'^iV^Ol  01 
..li  kepaulus  1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 


UNCUSSIFIED 


44 


The  terms  "Blowpipe"  and  "Stingers"  were  mentioned. 

0     Were  any  costs  mentioned? 

A     Yes.   The  cost  of  the  missiles  were  mentioned. 
The  cost  of  Blowpipe  missiles  was  mentioned  as  S20,000  each 
and  you  had  to  buy  them  in  packs  of  ten.   He  also  talked 
about  a  kind  of  aircraft  that  was  needed,  which  were  these 

7  I  Maule  aircraft. 

8  I       0     What  was  the  purpose  of  the  aircraft? 

9  A     As  I  understood  it,  there  were  two  purposes. 


10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22  i 


One  was  to  resupply  or  to  supply  the  contras  with  whatever 
supplies  they  might  need  by  dropping  the  supplies  out  of 
the  aircraft.   The  other  was  a  kind  of  reconnaissance 
mission  where  they  could  fly  along  and  undertake 
reconnaissance  wot 


Was  a  price  given  for  the  planes? 
Yes.   It  was  $65,000  each. 


535 


iJNCUSSiriEu 


9 

10 

11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


0     What  other  types  of  military  items  did  he 
describe? 

A     He  talked  about  ammunition,  antiaircraft 
missiles,  the  airplane.   As  far  as  I  can  recall,  that's 
about  it. 

How  long  was  Colonel  North  at  the  breakfast? 

About  half  an  hour. 

Then  you  continued  to  meet  with  Mr.  Channell? 


Yes. 


What  happened  after  Colonel  North  left? 

The  substance  of  what  happened  is  that  I  told 
Mr.  Channell  that  I  would  think  all  of  this  over  and  get 
back  to  him  right  away  and  let  him  know  whether  I  wanted  to 
go  ahead  and  make  a  contribution  or  not. 

0     You  said  that  Colonel  North  stated  that  he  could 


51 


wiASsra 


10    01    01  I  lllllJL>nVWlt   B»»»*'  46 

.uikepaulus  1  '   not  request  a  contribution.   Did  Mr.  Channell  request  a 

2  contribution  after  Colonel  North  left? 

3  j       A      I  would  say  that  this  was  more  of  an  offer  on  my 

4  I   part.   I  don't  know  quite  how  you  would  describe  it.   I  had 

5  I   been  the  one  to  say  that  I  was  willing  to  give  money  and 
i 

6  I   Mr.  Channell  indicated,  of  course,  that  he  was  willing  to 

7  I   receive  it.   I  don't  know  quite  whether  you  call  it  an 

8  i   offer  or  a  solicitation. 

9  0     You  indicated  an  interest  in  becoming  a  part  of 

10  the  select  group? 

11  A     Yes. 

I 

12  !  I  am  just  reminded  of  something  here.   At  some 

13  j   point,  and  I  think  it  was  at  that  meeting,  or  it  may  have 

14  been  the  evening  before  —  certain  elements  of  these 

15  conversations,  I  can't  recall  whether  they  took  place  the 

16  morning  after  or  the  night  before  —  but  Mr.  Channell 

17  indicated  to  me  that  if  one  were  to  give  as  much  as 

18  $J00,000  that  President  Reagan  would  meet  with  the  person 

19  who  was  giving  the  money  and  thank  him  for  the 

20  contribution.   The  way  he  put,  as  I  recall,  was  that  he 

21  would  spend  15  minutes  alone  with  this  person,  spend  a  few 

22  minutes  chatting  with  him,  and  by  spending  the  time  with 


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likepaulus  1  him  would  indicate  his  appreciation  for  the  extraordinary 

2  j  contribution  that  this  person  was  making  to  national 

3  !  security. 

4  !  0     Did  he  identify  any  persons  who  made  such  a 

t 

5  contribution  and  had  met  with  the  President? 

6  A  He  indicated  that  there  were  people  who  had  met 

7  j  with  the  President.   I  don't  think  he  named  any  names. 

8  ;  I  also  recall  that  at  some  point  he  mentioned 

9  that  these  meetings,  if  my  recollection  is  correct,  were 

10  not  on  the  record. 

11  0  What  did  you  understand  that  to  mean? 
I 

12  I  A     That  they  were  not  logged  in  on  the  normal 

13  {  appointment  calendars  that  the  President  keeps,  the 

14  I  implication  being  that  this  was  so  secret  that  the 
i 

15  President  wanted  to  keep  it  so  not  everybody  in  the  White 

16  i  House  knew  what  was  going  on. 

17  I  am  also  reminded  that  Mr.  Channell  gave  his 

18  home  address  for  this  contribution. 

19  I  don't  recall  the  specific  words  or  exactly 

20  what  Mr.  Channell  said,  but  the  substance  simply  was  that  I 

21  would  go  home,  think  this  over,  and  then  if  I  were  to  make 

22  a  contribution  for  the  purposes  we  discussed,  I  should  send 


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16  ! 
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\iHimim 


48 


this  to  his  home  address.   He  gave  me  his  home  address. 

0     Mr.  Channell  had  described  to  you  the  select 
group  that  made  contributions  for  military  support.   Did 
you  understand  his  comment  with  respect  to  the  contributors 
who  made  a  $300,000  contribution  and  could  meet  with  the 
President  to  be  a  part  of  this  select  group  that  he  had 
referred  to? 

A     Yes . 

Also,  he  indicated  that  one  could  specify  what 
kind  of  support  he  wanted  to  give.   For  example,  if  you 
felt  uncomfortable  with  the  idea  of  giving  military 
support,  you  could  give  some  kind  of  nonmilitary  support. 
I  think  it  was  in  that  context  that  he  mentioned  a  couple 
that  had  given  radio  equipment.   If  you  wanted  to  give 
military  support,  you  could  do  that. 

0     And  you  told  Mr.  Channell  you  would  consider 
making  a  contribution? 

A     Yes. 

0     Was  that  the  way  the  meeting  ended? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Did  you  go  back  to  New  York  then? 

A     Yes. 


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10  01  01  I  49 

.ikepaulus  1  ;  There  is  something  else.   In  the  course  of 

2  !   discussing  the  weaponry  needs  we  were  discussing  how  much 

3  ]   the  weapons  cost,  and  I  seem  to  remember  that  during  the 

i 

4  j   meeting  with  Mr.  Channell  and  Colonel  North  it  was 

i 

5  j   expressed  to  me  that  two  or  three  million  dollars  worth  of 

6  weapons  would  get  us  through  to  the  point  where  the 

7  1   congressional  money  would  start  to  flow  again. 

8  0     Did  Mr.  Channell  suggest  that  you  contribute 

9  $300,000  so  you  could  meet  with  the  President?* 

10  A     He  didn't  pin  down  the  amount  that  way.   He 

11  indicated  that  a  contribution  of  that  level  would  qualify 
I 

12  I   me,  so  to  speak,  for  a  meeting  with  the  President.   He 
I 

13  didn't  limit  it  to  $300,000.   During  later  discussions,  and 

14  I  can't  recall  exactly  the  point  of  the  discussion,  but  he 

15  I   did  suggest  that  I  give  enough  to  qualify  to  meet  with  the 

16  President  and  he  also  indicated  that  he  would  like  me  to 

17  function  as  a  fund-raiser.   What  he  suggested  was  that  I 

18  give  money  myself  and  agree  to  go  out  and  raise  monay  from 

19  other  people  that  I  might  know  and  meet  with  the  President 

20  in  conjunction  with  doing  this. 

21  0     This  occurred  at  a  later  conversation? 

22  A     I  don't  recall  specifically.   I  think  he  may 


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have  indicated  at  this  time  that  someone  who  gave  as  much 
as  $300,000  could  meet  with  the  President  and  then  in  a 
later  conversation  urged  me  to  bring  my  contribution  up  to 
t+iat  level  and  past  that  level  and  function  as  a 
fund-raiser  myself  and  meet  with  the  President. 
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51 


MR.  FRYMAN:   Back  on  the  record. 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0     Mr.  O'Boyle,  after  the  breakfast  meeting  with 
Colonel  North  that  we  just  discussed  did  you  make  a 
contribution  to  NEPL  for  the  purchase  of  military  equipment 
for  the  contras? 
A     Yes. 

0   .  How  many  days  later  did  you  make  the 
contribution? 

A     It  was  three  or  four  days  later. 
0     Did  you  have  any  further  conversations  with 
Colonel  North  or  Mr.  Channell  between  the  breakfast  meeting 
and  the  time  you  made  the  contribution? 
A     Yes. 

MR.  NEWMAN:   Listen  carefully  to  what  he  said. 
THE  WITNESS:   Could  you  repeat  the  question, 
please? 

BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
Q  Did  you  have  any  further  discussions  with 

Colonel  North  or  Mr.  Channell  between  the  breakfast  meeting 
that  you  described  and  the  time  you  made  the  contribution 
three  or  four  days  later? 


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52 


MR.  NEWMAN:   The  way  that  question  is  phrased,  I 
think  you  are  making  it  difficult.   I  don't  understand  what 
you  mean  by  made  the  contribution.   The  scenario  is  he 
wrote  the  check  and  went  down  there  without  a  prior 
appointment  and  delivered  the  check. 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

0     Let's  focus  on  the  writing  of  the  check.   Did 
you  have  any  conversations  with  Colonel  North  or 
Mr.  Channell  between  the  breakfast  meeting  and  the  time  you 
wrote  the  check? 

A     No.   To  my  recollection,  none. 

0     You  stated  that  Mr.  Channell  had  asked  that  you 
send  any  contribution  to  his  residence. 

A     Yes,  via  Federal  Express. 

0     How  did  you  deliver  the  check? 

A     In  person. 

0     To  whom  and  where? 

A     I  came  directly  to  Washington  either  Monday  or 
Tuesday  of  the  next  week  and  hand  delivered  the  check  to 
Mr.  Channell.   I  believe  I  actually  handed  it  to  him  at  the 
Hay-Adams  Hotel. 

0     Had  you  made  a  prior  appointment? 

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53 


No. 


What  was  the  amount  of  the  check? 

$130,000. 

How  did  you  find  Mr.  Channell  when  you  came  to 


Washington  that  day? 

A     I  went  from  the  airport  to  the  NEPL  office  and 
told  the  staff  members  there  that  I  had  something  very 
important  that  I  needed  to  see  Mr.  Channell  about  right 
away.   Shortly  after  that  Jane  McLaughlin  took  me  over  to 
the  Hay-Adams  Hotel.   I  had  dinner  with  Ms.  McLaughlin  and 
then  Mr.  Channell  arrived. 

0     Was  this  at  midday  or  was  this  in  the  evening? 

A     In  the  evening. 

0     Did  you  tell  Ms.  McLaughlin  what  you  had  for 
Mr.  Channell? 

A     As  I  recall,  I  did  not. 

0     Did  you  tell  her  you  had  a  contribution? 

A     I  don't  think  so. 

0     You  say  you  told  her  you  had  something  important 
for  Mr.  Channell? 

A     I  either  said  I  have  something  important  for  him 
or  I  need  to  talk  to  him  about  something  important  and  I 


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■nikepaulus  1  1  need  to  see  him  right  away. 

2  I       0     What  did  she  say  in  response? 

3  ':       A      I  think  it  was  actually  the  staff  members  at  the 


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NEPL  office  that  I  told  this  to,  not  Ms.  McLaughlin.   So 
they  arranged  for  Ms.  McLaughlin  to  come  and  take  me  over 
to  the  Hay-Adams  and  then  they  tracked  down  Mr.  Channell. 

0     Mr.  Channell  joined  you  and  Ms.  McLaughlin  at 
the  Hay-Adams? 

A      Yes . 

0     Did  Ms.  McLaughlin  stay  after  Mr.  Channell 
arrived? 

A     Briefly,  and  then  she  left. 

0     And  then  you  and  Mr.  Channell  had  a  meal 
together;  is  that  correct? 

A     No.   I  had  just  finished  having  a  meal  with 
Ms.  McLaughlin,  and  so  Mr.  Channell  and  I  had  drinks 
together. 

0     During  the  time  you  were  with  Mr.  Channell  what 
did  you  say  to  him  and  what  did  he  say  to  you? 

A     I  gave  him  the  check  and  I  said  this  is  for  the 
purchase  of  the  two  Maule  aircraft,  and  he  was  very  pleased 
and  said  thank  you  very  much.   I  don't  recall  his  exact 


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mmm 


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words,  but  he  was  appreciative.   I  think  at  that  point  he 
discussed  the  possibility  that  I  might  raise  more  money  or 
give  more  money.   I  think  he  went  out  to  call  Colonel  North 
to  come  over,  to  see  if  he  could  get  Colonel  North  to  join 
us. 

Q     Did  Colonel  North  join  you  at  the  Hay-Adams? 

A     Yes. 

Q     How  long  did  Colonel  North  spend  with  you? 

A     About  half  an  hour. 

0     Was  there  discussion  of  your  contribution  with 
Colonel  North? 

A     Yes.   Mr.  Channell  showed  Colonel  North  the 
check.   Colonel  North  again  reviewed  the  further  needs  of 
the  contras. 

0     What  did  Colonel  North  say  after  Mr.  Channell 
showed  him  the  check?   Did  he  express  appreciation  for  the 
check? 

A     I  think  he  just  looked  at  it  and  nodded.   I 
can't  remember  exactly  what  he  said. 

0     But  after  seeing  the  check  he  then  proceeded  to 
describe  further  military  equipment  needs  of  the  contras? 


Yes. 


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likepaulus  1  I       0     Were  these  different  needs  than  he  had  spoken  to 

2  you  about  the  week  before? 

3  A     Essentially  they  were  the  same.   I  think  he 

4  !   indicated  there  were  some  slight  differences.   The  Blowpipe 

5  I  missiles,  I  think,  were  no  longer  available.   One  option 

6  that  I  had  was  to  give  $200,000  to  buy  a  ten-pack  of 

i 

7  j  Blowpipe  missil« 


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essentially  they  were  the  same  needs.   We  discussed 
ammunition,  weapons,  the  same  list  pretty  much  as  he  had 
discussed  before  at  the  breakfast  meeting  the  previous 
Friday. 

0     Was  there  any  suggestion  about  the  size  of  a 
further  contribution  from  you? 

A     As  I  recall,  in  the  course  of  discussing  the 
weapons  needs  costs  were  mentioned,  and  I  got  the  feeling 
that  they  could  use  as  much  as  I  could  give. 

0     Was  there  any  discussion  of  a  meeting  with  the 
President  while  Colonel  North  was  present? 

A     Yes. 

0     What  was  said? 


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8310  02  02 

..likepaulus  1  ,       A     I  think  Channell  again  indicated  that  if  I  were 

2  to  agree  to  go  out  and  either  give  more  money  myself  or 

3  i   function  in  some  kind  of  a  fund-raising  capacity,  or  both, 

4  that  I  could  meet  with  the  President  and  that  he  would 

5  I   express  his  approval  and  appreciation  of  all  of  this,  and  I 

6  I   indicated  that's  not  why  I  was  doing  this,  to  get  a  meeting 

7  j   with  the  President. 

8  1  I  think  I  mentioned  before  that  it  was  mentioned' 

9  that  these  meetings  with  the  President  were  off  the  record 

! 

10  j   or  some  of  them  were  off  the  record. 

I 

11  I       Q     What  did  Colonel  North  say  about  meetings  with 

i 

12  j   the  President? 

13  A     Throughout  my  various  discussions  with  him  I 

14  seem  to  recall  that  he  indicated  a  number  of  times  that  he 

15  I   met  with  the  President  and  was  responsible  for  briefing  him 

16  on  certain  affairs.   I  got  the  impression  that  Colonel 

17  North  met  with  the  President  on  a  fairly  regular  basis. 

18  0     What  was  his  comment  or  response  to 

19  Mr.  Channell' s  remark  that  if  you  contributed  $300,000  you 

20  would  have  the  opportunity  for  a  private  meeting  with  the 

21  President? 

22  A     I  don't  think  he  had  any  particular  response. 


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0     But  he  was  present  when  Mr.  Channell  said  this 
to  you? 

A     Yes.   Again,  I  don't  recall  the  exact  words 
Mr.  Channell  used,  but  I  remember  saying  in  Colonel  North's 
presence  something  about,  well,  I'm  not  so  sure  I  even  want 
to  meet  with  the  President.   Something  along  those  lines. 
Or  that's  not  the  reason  why  I'm  doing  this.   I  remember 
Colonel  North  was  there.   I  don't  recall  exactly  what  it 
was  that  Mr.  Channell  said  to  me,  the  exact  words. 

Q     But  in  substance  did  he  say  that  if  you  gave  a 
donation  of  a  certain  amount,  in  the  range  of  $300,000  or 
more,  that  you  would  have  the  opportunity  to  meet  with  the 
President? 

A     Yes . 

0     Did  Colonel  North  say  anything  about  the 
substance  of  his  briefings  with  the  President? 

A     It  may  not  have  been  at  this  particular  meeting 
that  he  said  this.   I  recall  in  a  general  way  that  Colonel 
North  said  that  he  met  with  the  President  and  briefed  him. 
My  recollection  is  that  it  was  on  a  routine,  regular 
basis.   I  don't  recall  what  the  subject  of  the  briefing 


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0     Did  he  indicate  that  he  reported  to  the 


2  I  President  about  the  contributions  that  had  been  made? 


3 
4 

5 
6  ! 

7 

8 

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17 
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A     No,  not  that  I  recall. 

0     During  this  meeting  with  Colonel  North  at  the 
Hay-Adams  which  you  have  been  describing  you  said  he  again 
reviewed  the  military  needs.   Did  he  take  out  his  notebook 
again? 

A   .  I  think  he  did. 

0     What  else  did  he  say  during  this  meeting? 
A     He  had  talked  previously  about  the  drug 
smuggling  operations  of  the  Sandinistas,  and  I  asked  him  if 
there  was  any  way  that  the  United  States  could  intercept 
any  of  these  large  quantities  of  money  that  were  involved 
in  the  drug  traffic  to  fund  the  contras  with,  and  he  said, 
no,  that  that  was  not  an  option.   He  cited  moral  grounds 
for  that.   He  said  that  if  we  got  involved  in  any  kind  of 
drug  smuggling  operations  in  an  effort  to  fund  the  contras 
we  would  be  undermining  our  moral  position. 

He  did,  by  way  of  anecdote,  tell  some  kind  of  a 
story  about  how  he  had  been  involved  in  some  respect  in 
some  kind  of  a  drug  arrest  or  the  arrest  of  a  drug  dealer 
where  there  were  millions  of  dollars  in  a  suitcase  or  in  a 


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trunk  of  a  car,  by  way  of  illustrating  how  this  could  be 
done,  to  take  the  money  and  use  it  to  buy  arms  with.   But 
he  indicated  that  it  had  been  turned  in  to  the  proper 
authorities. 

0  What  had  been  the  nature  of  his  involvement  in 
this  incident? 

A     I  don't  know.   I  got  the  impression  that  he  was 
somehow  involved  in  a  peripheral  way. 

0   '   Did  he  indicate  when  this  incident  had  occurred? 

A     I  think  he  did,  but  I  don't  recall  exactly  when 
it  was.   My  vague  recollection  is  it  was  in  1985  or  1986. 

0     How  did  the  meeting  with  Colonel  North  conclude 
on  this  occasion? 

A  After  Colonel  North  had  been  present  for  about 
half  an  hour  or  so  he  left.  I  don't  recall  the  exact  bit 
of  conversation  that  preceded  the  closing  of  the  meeting. 

0     In  his  presence  there  was  a  discussion  of  a 
possible  further  contribution  by  you,  was  there  not? 

A     Yes. 

0     And  a  discussion  of  the  size  of  the  contribution 
and  if  it  exceeded  S300,000  you  would  have  the  opportunity 
to  meet  with  the  President? 


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no  02  02 

.iiikepaulus  1  j       A     This  is  Mr.  Channell  talking  now.   I  believe  it 

2  i  was  in  North's  presence.   That  if  I  were  to  give  more  than 

3  j  3300,000  I  could  meet  with  the  President.   It  may  have  been 

4  i  at  a  later  point,  but  I  think  it  was  also  at  that  point 

5  i  that  Channell  indicated  to  me  I  might  also  act  as  a 

6  i  fund-raiser  myself. 

7  I       0     What  happened  after  Colonel  North  left? 

I 

8  i       A     Mr.  Channell  and  I  spent  a  few  more  minutes 

9  I  together  and  then  I  left. 

! 

10  j       0     Did  Mr.  Channell  make  a  further  request  for 

11  I  contributions? 

1 
I 

12  i       A      I  think  the  discussion  that  we  had  been  having 

13  I  all  along  continued,  you  might  say.   I  left  on  the  note 

i 

14  that  I  would  give  all  this  some  further  thought. 

15  0     What  did  you  decide  after  giving  it  further 

16  thought? 

17  A     I  thought  about  this  for  a  few  days  and  then  I 

18  sent  Mr.  Channell  a  Mailgram  which  said  in  effect  I  support 

19  your  efforts  but  I  feel  I  have  gone  as  far  as  I  can  go  and 

20  I  don't  want  to  function  as  a  fund-raiser  myself  and  I 

21  don't  want  to  give  any  more  money. 

22  0     Did  you  consult  with  anyone  else  in  reaching 


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'^10  02  02 

i 

likepaulus  1  !   this  decision? 

2  '       A      I  had  spoken  to  my  wife  after  the  breakfast 

3  '     meeting  with  Mr.  Channell  and  Colonel  North,  the  original 

I 

4  1   breakfast  meeting.   I  had  spoken  to  her  briefly  over  that 

5  weekend.   I  don't  know  whether  you  call  that  a  consultation 

6  I   or  not.   I  told  her  in  a  general  sort  of  way  what  was  going 

7  on. 

8  i       0     Did  you  speak  to  anyone  else? 

i 

9  !        A      No. 

i 

10  I       0     What  about  after  this  second  meeting  with 

11  i   Colonel  North  and  Mr.  Channell? 

12  i       A     Other  than  my  wife,  I  didn't  speak  to  anyone.   I 

13  i   think  my  bookkeeper  drew  up  the  check,  but  she  had  no  idea 

14  i   what  it  was  for,  what  this  was  all  about. 

15  {       0     I  take  it  you  had  no  communications  with  Colonel 

16  North  or  Mr.  Channell  between  the  meeting  you  described  at 

17  j   the  Hay-Adams  and  the  time  you  sent  the  Mailgram  you  just 

18  referred  to. 

19  A     My  best  recollection  is  that  I  didn't.   There 

20  may  have  been  a  phone  call,  but  I  don't  think  so.   My 

21  recollection  is  there  was  no  further  communication. 

22  0      Did  you  have  any  communication  with  Colonel 


H 


RTERS,  Inc. 


553 


UNCLASSra 


•10    02    02  I  63 

'! 

.nikepaulus  1     North  or  Mr.  Channell  after  you  sent  the  Mailgram  that  you 


2 

3 

i 
I 

*     i 

5  ; 

1 

6  ; 

7  : 

8 
9  ; 

10  I 
11 

12  : 

''   I 

14  i 

i 

15  I 

16  I 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


I  have  referred  to? 

A      Yes,  I  did. 

0     What  was  the  next  occasion,  with  either? 

A      I  got  a  call  from  someone  at  NEPL  —  I  don't 
remember  who  it  was,  whether  it  was  Mr.  Channell  or 
possibly  Ms.  McLaughlin  —  indicating  that  they  wanted  to 
have  lunph  with  me.   They  were  coming  up  to  New  York  and 
they  wanted  to  have  lunch  with  me.   This  was  a  couple  weeks 
after  this  meeting  at  the  Hay-Adams.   I  think  it  was  on  the 
18th  of  April  that  they  were  coming  to  New  York,  and  I  in 
fact  did  have  lunch  with  them  on  the  18th  of  April.   I  had 
lunch  with  Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Conrad. 


Just  the  three  of  you? 

Yes. 

where  did  you  have  lunch? 

At  the  Union  League  Club  in  New  York. 

What  did  Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Conrad  say  at  this 


0 
A 

0 
A 

0 

lunch? 

A     They  indicated  to  me  that  this  entire  process  of 
my  making  a  contribution  had  happened  so  quickly  that  they 
didn't  have  the  opportunity  to  give  me  all  the 


UNCLASSIFIED 

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UNCUSSIFIED 


no  02  02  ;j  64 

mikepaulus  1    presentations  they  wanted  to  give  to  me,  to  show  me  the 

2  J  courtesies  they  wanted  to  show  to  me,  and  would  I  be 

3  !   willing  to  come  down  to  Washington  for  another  meeting  with 

4  '   Colonel  North.   That  was  one  subject  that  was  discussed. 

5  Q     What  others? 

6  I       A     I  at  that  point  indicated  a  concern  about  the 

7  legality  and  confidentiality  of  their  work. 

8  ''  Q     Had  you  consulted  with  anyone  about  the  legality 

9  I   or  confidentiality  of  their  work? 

10  ■       A     I  had  asked  an  agency  which  does  background 
i 

11  I   investigations  to  check  on  Mr.  Channell  for  me,  which  they 

12  undertook  to  do.   This  is  a  copy  of  their  report  right 

j 

13  ]   here.   But  that  didn't  come  in  until  later. 

14  0     That  is  included  in  the  documents  that  you 

15  produced  today;  is  that  correct? 

16  I       A     Yes. 

17  0     Did  you  consult  with  an  attorney  at  this  point? 

18  A     No. 

19  0     Did  Mr.  Channell  or  Mr.  Conrad  make  any  further 

20  requests  for  contributions  from  you  at  this  luncheon? 

21  A     My  understanding  was  the  general  purpose  of 

22  their  visit  was  t*iaihl^ij/ate_me_  as  a  contributor. 


Ace-Federal  Reporters.  Inc. 


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8310  02  02 

.ikepaulus  1 

I 

^  ! 

3 

i 

4  I 
I 

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7  I 

I 

8  i 

9  I 

10  I 

11  I 

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14  i 

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19 
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0     So  it  was  more  general  than  specific? 

A     Yes . 

0     Was  there  any  further  discussion  of  particular 
military  needs  of  the  contras? 

A     I  believe  it  was  at  that  point  that  I  asked  them 
are  the  planes  that  I  bought  flying,  and  they  said  yes, 
they  are. 

0     This  was  with  the  check  you  had  given 
approximately  two  weeks  earlier? 

a'     Yes. 

0     Did  they  say  how  they  knew  that  they  were 
flying? 

A     No.   Although  I  seem  to  remember  a  discussion 
earlier  in  which  Mr.  Channell  indicated,  I  think,  that 
either  he  or  Colonel  North  had  been  in  contact  with  Maule 
Aircraft  in  Georgia  and  had  arranged  to  get  the  aircraft. 

0     You  say  Mr.  Channell  had  indicated  that  earlier? 

A     It  may  have  been  at  the  meeting  at  the 
Hay-Adams,  when  I  gave  the  check  to  Mr.  Channell,  that  he 
indicated  that  he  or  Colonel  North  would  be  in  touch  with 
Maule  Aircraft.   Or  maybe  even  had  been  in  touch  with  Maule 
Aircraft.   And  this  would  be  assuming  that  they  were  going 


Ac 

2O2-347-370O 


IS.  Inc. 

N  ai  ion  w  ide  Coverage  ■  800-  3  36-6Mft 


556 


no   02   02  i 

i 

.nikepaulus    1 

2   ! 

3 

j 

4  ; 

5  j 

6  I 

i 

8  i 

I 

9  I 
i 

10  i 

11  1 
I 

12  1 
I 

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14  I 

I 

15  j 

16  ! 

17 
18 
19 
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ONCUSSIFIED 


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to  get  this  equipment  anyway  and  I  was  just  covering  it  for 
them,  so  to  speak.   I  am  not  quite  sure  whether  their 
getting  the  equipment  depended  on  my  giving  the  check  or 
not . 

0     You  had  not  had  any  conversation  with 
Mr.  Channell  between  the  meal  at  the  Hay-Adams  that  you 
described  and  the  luncheon  at  the  Union  League  Club? 

A     As  far  as  I  recall,  no.   There  was  one  contact, 
I  think,  from  his  office  to  my  office,  and  I  don't  recall 
whether  I  spoke  to  him  personally  or  whether  it  was  through 
the  secretary  where  we  set  up  the  luncheon.   And  I  am  not  ' 
sure  whether  it  was  him  or  Ms.  McLaughlin  or  someone  else 
who  arranged  this. 

0     At  this  luncheon  meeting  in  mid-April  he 
suggested  a  further  meeting  with  Colonel  North? 

A     Yes. 

0     Did  you  have  a  further  meeting  with  Colonel 
North? 

A 

Q 

A 


Yes. 

When  did  that  occur? 

It  was  a  few  days  later.   It  may  have  been  the 


next  day,  but  I  think  it  was  a  few  days  later. 


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'10  02  02 

■iiikepaulus  1  '       0  In  April  of  1986? 

! 

2  j  A  Yes. 

3  I  0  Where  was  it? 

4  !  A  In  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building.   In 

5  I  Colonel  North's  office,  at  the  National  Security  Council 
i 

6  i  office. 

7  ]  0  Who  else  was  present? 

8  !  A  Mr.  Channell  was  there  for  a  brief  period  of 

9  I  time.  , 

10  0  Anyone  else? 

11  A  I  saw  Fawn  Hall,  Colonel  North's  secretary, 

12  although  she  wasn't  at  the  meeting;  she  was  just  outside  at 
I 

13  I  her  desk. 
I 

14  I  0  Anyone  else? 

15  A  No . 

16  0  Channell  was  not  present  for  the  entire  meeting? 

17  A  No. 

18  0  How  long  did  the  meeting  last? 

19  A  Half  an  hour  to  45  minutes. 

20  0  What  did  North  say? 

21  A  We  talked  about  a  number  of  subjects.   While 

22  Channel  was  there  I  believe  we  talked  about  a  humanitarian 


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likepaulus  1  !  aid  program  that  NEPL  was  undertaking,  which  involved 
i 
2  I  supplying  boots  and  military  uniforms  and  various  other 


equipment  like  that  to  the  contras. 

Then  Mr.  Channell  left  and  Colonel  North  and  I 
had  further  discussions.   I  asked  Colonel  North  what  the 


6  !]  general  plan  was  in  Nicaragua:  What's  going  on  here 


7  I 

8  ■ 

9  I 

10  ! 

I 

11  ! 

12  : 

I 

13  i 

14  ; 

I 

15  i 

16  I 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 

22 

I 


anyway?  Why  are  we  giving  them  aid?  what's  going  to 
happen?  ,He  outlined  what  the  general  plan  was. 

Q     What  was  the  general  plan? 

A     First  he  indicated  to  me  that  this  was  very 
secret  information,  that  because  I  was  involved  he  was 
going  to  tell  me.   Basically,  he  said  that  there  were  two 
versions  of  the  same  plan,  one  if  Congress  approved 
continued  funding  of  the  contras  and  one  if  Congress  did 
not  approve  continued  funding  of  the  contras. 

The  basic  plan  was  that  the  contras  would  gather 
their  forces  and  seize  a  certain  part  of  Nicaragua, 
establish  a  provisional  capital  and  a  provisional 
government,  and  the  United  States  would  assist  in  this  by 
blockading  the  country  with  the  Navy,  cutting  off  the 
supplies  coming  in  to  the  Sandinistas  from  Cuba,  would 
recognize  the  contras  as  the  legitimate  government  of 


mm>m 


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•310    02    02 
..likepaulus    1 

2 

I 

3 

I 

4  I 

5  i 

6  I 

7  I 
1 

8  ; 

9  I 
I 

10 

11  i 

12  i 

13  ! 

15  I 

I 

16  I 

17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


UNCUSSIFIED 


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Nicaragua,  and  the  Sandinistas  would  be  out  and  the  contras 
would  be  in. 

If  Congress  were  to  approve  the  resumption  of 
funding  of  the  contras,  this  would  happen  on  approximately 
an  18-month  time  frame.   If  it  were  not  to  approve  funding 
of  the  contras,  it  would  happen  on  a  much  shorter  time 
frame,  which  was  less  desirable  and  would  be  something  of  a 
desperation  move  on  the  part  of  the  contras. 

I  remember  something  now  which  I  hadn't  recalled 
up  until  now.   I  asked  him  are  we  involved  in  the  beginning 
of  World  War  III  here,  and  we  talked  about  that  a  little 
bit.   He  indicated  that  we  were  not  because  the  Russians 
would  never  be  willing  to  fight  us  for  Nicaragua;  they  have 
enough  problems  of  their  own. 

I  also  indicated  to  him  that  I  felt  uneasy  about 
further  involvement  as  a  civilian,  because  I  didn't  enjoy 
the  protection  of  the  government;  I  wasn't  a  member  of  a 
government  agency  of  any  kind,  and  if  I  were  up  against 
governmental  forces,  I  was  concerned  that  the  KGB,  aside 
from  everyone  else,  would  be  highly  interested  in  these 
activities  of  Colonel  North,  and  if  J  were  out  there  buying 
weapons  as  sort  of  an  independent  agent,  a  civilian,  that  I 


UNCUSSIFIED 

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'10  02  02     i 

likepaulus  1  ' 

2  1 

3  j 

i 

4  I 

5  i 

6  ! 

7  J 

8  i 
I 

9  I 

I 

10  j 

I 

12  I 

13  I 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


70 


was  exposing  myself  to  some  danger  from  hostile  forces,  you 
might  say,  while  at  the  same  time  having  no  training  or  no 
institutional  support.   We  talked  a  little  bit  about  that. 

Then  I  also  indicated  that  if  I  were  Colonel 
North  I  would  be  concerned  that  the  KGB  would  be  interested 
in  his  activities.   We  talked  a  little  bit  about  a 
technique  called,  I  think,  active  measures,  where  the  KGB 
identifies  a  government  operative  who  is  causing  them  a  lot 
of  trouble  and  renders  them  ineffective  somehow.   Colonel 
North  indicated  that  he  was  concerned  that  was  beginning  to 
happen  to  him,  that  there  was  an  article  that  had  appeared 
in  a  Massachusetts  newspaper,  and  it  was  the  kind  of  thing 
the  KGB  might  do  to  try  to.   He  was  involved,  apparently, 
in  trying  to  keep  his  name  out  of  the  papers,  trying  to 
keep  his  picture  out  of  the  papers,  and  he  felt  that  there 
was  some  chance  that  some  of  this  newspaper  leaking  and  so 
forth  that  was  going  on  about  his  activities  were  in  fact 
organized  by  the  KGB.   He  indicated  that  he  was  in  touch 
with  the  FBI  about  that. 

Q     The  press  campaign  that  he  referred  to  is  what 
you  understood  was  meant  by  the  active  measures  that 
related  to  Colonel  North? 


.  Inc. 


561 


UNCUSSIflEO 


'10  02  02 

likepaulus  1  I 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


71 


A     Yes. 

0     Were  you  concerned  about  something  similar  with 
respect  to  you? 

A     In  a  general  way,  yes,  although  I  was  not 
involved  in  any  way  to  the  same  extent  as  Colonel  North. 

0  In  this  overall  plan  that  he  described,  what  was 
to  be  your  role? 

A  My  role  wasn't  really  discussed.  He  was  just 
telling  me  what  I  assumed  was  the  strategy  of  the  United 
States  Government  vis-a-vis  Nicaragua. 

0  Why  did  you  understand  he  was  telling  you  all 
this? 

A  I  felt  that  he  had  accepted  me  as  being  a  member 
of  a  small  group  of  trusted  people  that  was  willing  to  help 
with  this  plan,  or  who  already  had  helped  with  it,  and  then 
as  an  expression  of  this  trust  that  he  was  explaining  to  me 
what  the  general  plan  was. 

0     Did  Colonel  North  request  any  further 
contributions  from  you? 

A     During  the  earlier  meeting,  or  the  earlier  part 
of  the  meeting  when  Mr.  Channel!  was  present,  I  think 
Mr.  Channell  had  indicated  to  me  in  a  general  way  that  they 


Ace-' 


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72 


'10  02  02 

likepaulus  1  i  were  open  for  receiving  contributions  for  this  humanitarian 

2  type  of  aid  that  NEPL  was  involved  in.   But  after  he  left, 

3  i  no,  Colonel  North  didn't  ask  for  any  contributions. 

i 

4  j       0     Did  you  understand  that  NEPL  was  still  open  also 

5  I  for  contributions  for  military  aid? 

6  i       A     That  had  been  my  understanding  from  the 
i 

7  I  beginning,  from  the  earlier  meetings,  but  I  didn't  hear 

8  anything  at  these  later  meetings  that  either  confirmed  or 

9  denied  that. 

10  0     After  your  meeting  with  Colonel  North  did  you 

11  see  Mr.  Channell  that  day? 
! 

12  I       A     I  think  so.   As  I  recall,  Mr.  Channell  came  by 

] 

13  i  and  walked  back  to  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel  with  me.   I  remember 

14  !  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Channel!  about  how  this  was  all 

i 

15  I  part  of  a  larger  plan  on  the  part  of  President  Reagan  to 

16  i  reverse  the  dominoes.   I  am  sure  you  know  what  I  mean  by 

17  !  the  domino  theory.   Start  the  dominoes  going  back  the  other 

18  way.   Nicaragua  was  one  step.   I  think  Afghanistan  was 

19  going  to  be  another  step.   I  think  a  couple  of  African 

20  countries  were  also  mentioned.   I  think  it  was  at  that 

21  point  that  we  had  that  discussion. 

22  I  also  remember  having  a  similar  discussion  at 


rememDer  naving  a  simiia 

UNCUSSIflED 

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10  02  02 
mikepaulus  1 
2 
3 
4 
5 

6  I 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 

12   ; 

13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


UNCLASSIFIED 


73 


the  first  cocktail  party  after  the  first  briefing  with 
Colonel  North.   I  came  up  with  that  idea  myself:  we're 
starting  to  roll  the  dominoes  back  the  other  way.   And  he 
said,  yes,  that's  right,  isn't  it?  That  idea  had  been 
talked  about  before. 

0     Any  discussion  of  further  contributions  with 
Mr.  Channell  after  the  meeting? 

A   ,   He  knew  that  I  had  already  sent  him  that 
Mailgram  saying  I  don't  want  to  give  any  more 
contributions.   The  way  we  left  it  was  if  I  wanted  to  give 
any  more  contributions  I  would  be  in  touch  with  them. 

Q     Have  you  had  any  communication  with  Colonel 
North  since  the  meeting  you  just  described? 

A     Yes . 

0     When? 

A     Colonel  North  wrote  me  a  couple  of  letters.   I 
don't  recall  the  exact  text  of  the  letters,  but  in  effect 
they  thanked  me  for  my  support  and  encouraged  me  to 
continue  my  support. 

0     Have  you  had  any  further  meetings  with  Colonel 


North? 


No. 


A/~r  PV<->PPAi    Rfportfr<;    Ivr 


564 


UNCLASSIFIED 


74 


-^10  02  02 

mikepaulus  1  !       0     Any  telephone  conversations? 

2  i       A     No. 

3  I       0     So  the  only  connnuni cat  ions  would  be  the  letters 

i 

4  ■  that  you  referred  to? 

5  j       A     Yes. 

6  i       0     Have  you  had  any  conununications  with 

7  Mr.  Channell  since  your  talk  with  him  after  the  meeting 

8  I  with  Colonel  North? 

9  i       A     I  was  still  on  their  mailing  list,  of  course,  so 

10  I  I  received  the  usual  stuff  that  they  would  send  out.   Later 

11  I  on  that  year  I  received  an  urgent  request  for,  the  way  they 

12  1  put  it,  the  last  donation  in  regard  to  the  contras  that 

13  I  they  would  ever  ask  for.   This  was  after  Congress  had  voted 

14  !  to  support  the  contras  again.   Meanwhile  there  were  still 

15  I  some  delays  in  terms  of  the  money  trickling  down  from 

16  \  Congress  to  the  contras  themselves,  and  according  to 

17  Channel!  they  urgently  needed  more  supplies.   So  I  made  an 

18  additional  contribution  of  $30,000  later  that  year.   As  I 

19  recall,  that  was  for  what  they  were  calling  humanitarian 

20  aid. 

21  0     After  your  conversation  with  Mr.  Channell 

22  following  the  North  meeting  that  you  described  have  you  had 


UNCLASSIFIED 

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•"10    02    02 

iiiikepaulus    1 

2 

3 

4 

5  I 

6  i 

I 

7  ! 

8 
9 

10 
11 
12 

13  I 

14  I 

i 

"  i 

16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


UNCUSSIFIED 


75 


any  further  conversations  with  Mr.  Channell  either  in 
person  or  on  the  telephone? 

A     None,  to  my  recollection. 

0     Your  two  contributions  to  NEPL  were  one  for 
$130,000  and  one  for  $30,000.   Other  than  those 
contributions  have  you  made  any  contributions  to  any  entity 
with  respect  to  Nicaragua? 

A     No. 

0     Since  January  1,  1986,  have  you  had  any 
communication  with  President  Reagan? 

A     No.   The  only  exception  that  I  might  want  to  add 
would  be  that  I  can't  recall  if  I  may  have  received  some 
kind  of  routine  political  communication,  such  as 
fund-raising  type  stuff  that  the  Republican  party  would 
send  out  over  President  Reagan's  signature.  Aside  from 
that  sort  of  thing,  none. 

0     Have  you  met  with  President  Reagan  since  January 


1,  1986? 
A 

0 
A 


No. 

Have  you  spoken  with  him  on  the  telephone? 

No.   I  should  say  I  did  meet  with  him  once,  but 


I  believe  that  was  in  1985,  in  connection  with  a  totally 


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.aikepaulus  1  '  different  situation. 

2  j  MR.  FRYMAN:   I  ask  the  reporter  to  mark  as 

3  O'Boyle  Deposition  Exhibit  No.  1  for  identification  a 
I 

4  subpoena  of  the  House  Select  Committee  directed  to 

5  Mr.  O'Boyle,  which  is  dated  March  30,  1987. 


6  1 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


(O'Boyle  Deposition 
Exhibit  No.  1  marked 
for  identification.) 
(Document  handed  to  witness.) 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0     Mr.  O'Boyle,  Deposition  Exhibit  1  is  a  subpoena' 
that  was  served  on  you  in  advance  of  the  deposition  which 
is  similar  to  a  subpoena  that  was  served  on  you  by  the 
Senate  Select  Committee  and  which  calls  for  production  of 
various  documents.   Have  you  produced,  today,  documents  in 
response  to  the  subpoenas  of  the  committees? 
A     Yes. 

MR.  NEWMAN:   So  the  record  is  clear,  Mr.  Fryman, 
we  did  not  produce  any  telephone  toll  records.   We  also  did 
not  produce  his  diary  for  the  reason  previously  stated, 
because  they  are  in  the  possession  of  the  independent 
prosecutor.   We  will  try  to  make  a  search  for  the  toll 


Rs.  Inc. 


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likepaulus  1  ., 
2 
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6  : 

7  I 
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'     I 
'     I 

i 

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1 

13  I 

14  i 

15  I 

16 

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records  and  forward  them  to  you  under  separate  cover. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Let  me  now  mark  as  0 'Boyle 
Deposition  Exhibit  2  for  identification  a  group  of 
documents  which  was  produced  this  morning  by  Mr.  O'Boyle. 
The  entire  group  will  be  Deposition  Exhibit  2. 

(O'Boyle  Deposition 
Exhibit  No.  2  marked 
for  identification.) 

MR.  NEWMAN:   Mr.  Fryman,  after  Mr.  O'Boyle  had 
another  chance  to  look  at  the  subpoena,  he  noticed  some 
entities  in  here  that  he  may  have  some  correspondence  from. 
He  will  check  his  records.   If  he  does,  we  will  forward  it 
to  you. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Mr.  Newman,  could  you  identify  for 
the  record  at  the  moment  any  groups  of  documents  that  you 
believe  are  called  for  in  the  subpoena  which  have  not  been 
produced?   You  mentioned  telephone  toll  records  and  you 
mentioned  the  diary.   Is  there  anything  else? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  am  looking  at  Schedule  A  here. 
I  recall  receiving  a  communication  from  Mr.  Channell 
recently,  I  think.   Some  kind  of  committee  on  Afghanistan. 
I  don't  even  know  whether  I  kept  it  or  threw  it  away. 

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no  02  02  1 

mikepaulus  1  !  There  might  be  something  in  here  on  another  Channell 

2  :|  organization  that  I  received  by  way  of  sort  of  a  regular 

3  mailing,  you  might  say,  a  fund-raising  type  of  thing,  but  I 

4  had  no  involvement.   There  might  be  something  in  the  files 

5  somewhere. 

6  j  Any  bank  in  Switzerland.   I  have  a  Swiss  bank 

7  account  which  I  have  had  for  years,  which  has  a  minor 

8  amount  of  money  in  it. 

9  !  MR.  FRYMAN:   With  respect  to  subparagraph  (o), 

10  j   we  are  not  requesting  production  of  all  tax  records  at  this 

I 

11  I   time. 

1 

12  I  THE  WITNESS:   As  far  as  I  know,  the  only 
1 

13  j   possible  exception  to  the  records  we  have  already  produced 

14  j   might  be  under  Schedule  A.   There  might  be  another  one  of 

15  j   the  Channell  organizations. 

16  j  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

17  0     Which  would  be  form  materials  from  another 

18  Channel/  organization;  is  that  correct? 

19  A     Yes.   And  I  am  not  even  sure  I  even  have  those 

20  still  in  my  file.   But  I'll  check. 

21  0     I  also  direct  your  attention  to  Appendix  A. 

22  A     Is  this  do  I  know  any  of  these  people? 


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0     The  subpoena  calls  for  materials  that  have 
anything  to  do  with  these  individuals  or  organizations. 

A     As  far  as  I  know,  I  don't  have  any  of  this 
material  other  than  what  I've  mentioned. 

Q     To  summarize,  the  group  of  documents  that  you 
have  produced  this  morning  includes  everything  called  for 
by  the  subpoena  other  than  your  diary,  telephone  toll 
records,  records  relating  to  a  personal  foreign  bank 
account,  and  some  form  materials  from  another  Channell 
organization;  is  that  correct? 

A     Yes. 

0     And  tax  records,  which  I  said  are  not  called 
for. 

MR.  NEWMAN:   Let  me  explain  one  other  thing  to 
you  on  the  record.   I  am  sure  you  are  going  to  get  hold  of 
a  copy  of  th6  diary  from  the  independent  prosecutor,  and 
you  are  going  to  find  one  corner  of  a  page  that  is  torn 
out,  that  had  some  names  on  it.   That  was  done  prior  to  its 
delivery  to  the  independent  prosecutor.   If  you  want  to  ask 
him  a  question  as  to  how  that  came  about,  you  are  welcome 
to  do  it  so  we  don't  have  to  have  another  trip  down  when 


you  discover  that 


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BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
Q     How  did  it  happen  that  the  corner  of  the  page 
was  torn  out  of  the  diary? 

A     That  is  the  corner  on  which  I  wrote  Oliver 
North's  name.   When  I  realized  the  secret  nature  of  his 
work,  I  tore  it  out  of  my  diary. 

0     What  did  you  do  with  it? 
A     Threw  it  away. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   I  ask  the  reporter  to  mark  as 
O'Boyle  Deposition  Exhibit  2-A  for  identification  a  check 
for  $130,000,  dated  March  31,  1986. 

(O'Boyle  Deposition 
Exhibit  No.  2-A  marked 
^         for  identification.) 
(Document  handed  to  witness.) 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
Q     Mr.  O'Boyle,  is  that  the  check  that  you  gave  to 
Mr.  Channell  for  the  purchase  of  the  two  Maule  airplanes? 
A     Yes. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   I  ask  the  reporter  to  mark  as 
O'Boyle  Deposition  Exhibit  2-B  for  identification  a  check 
for  $30,000,  dated  September  3  0.  1986. 


Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 


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no    02    02 

.nikepaulus    1  |                                                                               (0 'Boyle   Deposition 

2  I                                                                                     Exhibit    No.    2-B  marked 

for   identification.) 
i 

4  (Document   handed   to  witness.) 

5  I  .BY  MR.    FRYMAN: 

6  0  Mr.  O'Boyle,  would  you  identify  Exhibit  2-B? 

7  A  That's  a  checl<  for  $30,000  which  I  later  gave  to 

8  !  the  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty. 

1  • 

9  0  That  is  in  response  to  the  final  request  for 

10  funds  for  the  contras  that  you  described? 

11  A  Yes. 

12  MR.  FRYMAN:   I  ask  the  reporter  to  mark  as 

13  O'Boyle  Deposition  Exhibit  2-C  for  identification  a 

14  I  handwritten  note  and  a  phone  memo  slip. 
i 

15  (O'Boyle  Deposition 

16  Exhibit  No.  2-C  marked 

17  for  identification.) 

18  (Document  handed  to  witness.) 

19  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

20  0  Is  that  your  handwriting,  Mr.  O'Boyle? 

21  A  No. 

22  0  Whose  handwriting  is  that? 


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82 


I'm  not  sure.   Someone  in  my  office. 

Was  that  a  note  that  was  given  to  you? 

Yes,    it  was. 

Are  you  looking  at  the  phone  message  at  the 


Yes. 

What  is  the  material  at  the  top? 

It  says  "meet  Dan  Conrad  April  29th  at  the  2  pm 


A 

0 

A 

0 
moment? 

A 

0 

A 
shuttle." 

0     Is  the  material  at  the  top  on  a  separate  piece 
of  paper  from  the  phone  message  at  the  bottom? 

A     I  don't  know. 

(Witness  and  counsel  conferring.) 
MR.  NEWMAN:   We  will  have  to  check  this.   This 
was  Xeroxed  for  us  by  Mr.  0 'Boyle's  office.   We  don't  know 
if  the  secretary  in  doing  it  Xeroxed  two  pieces  of  paper 
together. 

BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

0     Do  you  recall  receiving  the  notes  which  are  at 
the  top  of  the  page? 

A     No.   They  look  like  notes  my  secretary  was 
making  of  telephone  communications  back  and  forth.   For 


,  Inc. 


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UNCLASSIFIED 


•  810  02  02  •!                                               83 

.rtikepaulus  1  i  example,  down  here  it  says  "okay  for  a  4  pm  meeting  on 

2  i  Tuesday,  the  29th."   It  looks  like  maybe  they  were 

3  arranging  that  meeting  that  was  held  subsequently  to  my 


4 
5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 


luncheon  at  the  Union  League  Club. 

0     This  is  the  meeting  with  Colonel  North  in  his 
office  that  you  described? 

A     Yes . 

0  There  is  a  date  here  in  these  notes  of  4/29.  Do 
you  believe  that  April  29  was  the  date  of  your  meeting  "with 
Colonel  North? 

A     I  think  so.   I  think  it  was,  but  I  can't  be 
sure.   We  may  be  mixed  up  a  little  bit  on  the  dates.   I 


13  ;|  think  I  have  the  18th  as  the  luncheon,  and  then  some  time 


14 

15 
16 
17 
18 
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later  there  was  the  meeting  in  Colonel  North's  office.   I 
recall  it  as  a  few  days  later;  it  may  have  been  as  much  as 
ten  days  later. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   I  ask  the  reporter  to  mark  as 
0 'Boyle  Deposition  Exhibit  2-D  for  identification  a 
Mailgram  dated  April  7,  1986. 

/  (O'Boyle  Deposition 

Exhibit  No.  2-D  marked 


for  identification.) 


UNCIASSIFIEO 


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'10    02    02 

likepaulus    1  (Document   handed   to  witness.) 

2  '  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

3  I       0     Mr.  O'Boyle,  is  that  the  Mailgram  that  you 

4  I   described  earlier  in  your  testimony? 

5  j       A     Yes. 

6  j  MR.  FRYMAN:   I  ask  the  reporter  to  mark  as 

7  !   O'Boyle  Deposition  Exhibit  2-E  for  identification  a  group 

8  j   of  pages  headed  NEPL  Freedom  Fighters  TV  National  Spot 

9  !   Placement,  Second  Flight. 

10  (O'Boyle  Deposition 

11  Exhibit  No.  2-E  marked 

12  ;  for  identification. ) 

I 

13  I  (Document  handed  to  witness.) 

i 

14  I  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

I 

15  I       0     Mr.  O'Boyle,  where  did  you  receive  that  material 

16  from? 

17  A     It  was  sent  to  me  by  NEPL.   It  may  actually  have 

18  been  conjunction  with  a  video  tape  of  some  of  the 

19  television  commercials  which  they  had  produced. 

20  0     What  did  you  understand  was  the  reason  for 

21  sending  you  that? 

22  A     To  demonstrate  to  me  that  they  were  in  fact 


iM?m. 


575 


P=}10  02  02 
mikepaulus  1 

2 

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I 

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22 


DNCUSSIFIEO 


85 


engaged  in  a  process  of  airing  these  television  commercials 
and  to  enlist  my  support. 

Q     Did  you  make  any  contributions  to  purchase 
television  commercials? 

A     No. 

Q     Mr.  O'Boyle,  I  would  ask  you  to  take  a  minute  to 
review  Deposition  Exhibit  2  and  tell  me  if  these  are  all 
materials  from  your  file  and  if  they  are  records  that  are 
what  they  purport  to  be,  i.e.,  that  they  are  letters  or' 
communications  as  indicated  in  the  particular  document. 

A     These  are  copies  of  my  files,  the  files  that 
have  been  subpoenaed. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Off  the  record. 
(Recess . ) 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Back  on  the  record. 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

0     Mr.  O'Boyle,  you  mentioned  that  at  your  original 
meeting  at  the  Hay-Adams  you  met  with  a  number  of 
representatives  from  IBC,  International  Business 
Communications,  and  you  thought  that  they  might  be 
government  agents.  What  was  the  basis  for  that  speculation 


on  your  part? 


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A  I  didn't  speak  to  any  of  them  at  great  length, 
but  I  did  speak  to  a  couple  of  them,  and  they  didn't  seem 
like  businessmen  to  me. 

0     Can  you  be  specific? 

A      Not  that  I  quizzed  them  at  great  length,  but  if 
you  meet  someone  of  your  own  profession  and  background  you 
can  tell  whether  they  are  a  lawyer  or  a  doctor  or  they 
aren't,  especially  if  you  are  a  lawyer  or  doctor  yourself. 
These  didn't  appear  to  be  people  that  were  extremely 
experienced  in  the  management  of  companies  or  business 
affairs  or  economics.   It  was  just  a  vague  impression  that 
I  got.   I  don't  know  whether  it  is  conclusive  or  not,  but 
it  is  an  impression  that  I  got  and  it  seemed  to  fit  with 
the  idea  that  perhaps  this  entire  program  was  sponsored 
somehow  by  the  government,  or  the  government  was  involved 
in  this  program. 

0     Was  there  anything  said  by  anyone  at  that 
meeting  that  indicated  that  they  were  government  agents? 

A     No. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   I  have  no  further  questions. 


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87 


EXAMINATION 
BY  MR.  KAPLAN: 

0     I  am  going  to  take  you  back  to  March  and  the 
dinner  at  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel  during  which  Richard  Miller 
sat  next  to  you.   Can  you  describe  from  recollection  any 
conversation  that  you  had  with  Miller  during  that  dinner? 

A     As  I  recall,  it  was  a  fairly  social  kind  of 
conversation  but  with  political  overtones.   I  remember  we 
talked  about  the  desirability  of  the  anticommunist  effort, 
the  Reagan  Administration  in  general,  that  it  was  desirable 
to  eliminate  the  communists  or  get  rid  of  the  communists. 
That  sort  of  thing. 

I  remember  also  talking  to  him  about  that  while 
it  was  desirable  to  get  rid  of  the  communists  we  didn't 
want  to  be  in  the  position  where  we  were  supporting 
horrible  right  wing  dictators  either.   Just  kind  of  a 
political  discussion,  you  might  say. 

Q     Did  Miller  solicit  any  funds  from  you? 

A     No. 

0     Did  you  have  any  contact  with  Miller  after  that 
dinner  at  the  Hay-Adams? 


Ever? 


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10  02  02  ' 
likepaulus  1         0     Ever. 

2  I       A     I  ran  into  him  one  time  in  another  context, 

3  :  completely  different  context.   President  Aquino  from  the 

4  i  Philippines  was  visiting  New  York  and  addressed  the  United 

5  Nations  and  then  stopped  by  and  paid  a  courtesy  call  to  the 

6  !   Asia  Foundation  after  that.   I  was  present  at  this 

7  reception,  having  been  a  supporter  of  the  Asia  Society.   A 

8  brief  speech  and  a  reception  was  given  by  President  Aquino, 

9  and  Miller  was  there.   I  am  not  sure  I  remember  this 

10  correctly,  but  I  think  he  was  billed  as  a  State  Department 

11  ;   protocol  officer.   He  was  there  helping  sort  of  move  the 

12  crowds  past  President  Aquino,  because  we  all  lined  up  to 

13  i   shake  hands  with  President  Aquino.   He  was  standing  right 

14  ;   there,  kind  of  moving  people  past.   This  seem  to  confirm  in 
i 

15  !   my  mind  that  this  guy  really  works  for  the  State 

16  Department;  this  public  relations  thing,  that's  what  they 

17  !   all  say  in  Washington,  right? 

18  0     Do  you  recall  who  billed  him  as  a  State 

19  Department  protocol  person? 

20  A     I  think  it  was  in  the  program  of  President 

21  Aquino's  party.   There  was  a  program  that  listed  who  was  in 

22  I   her  party.   I  am  not  sure  that  that  was  his  title,  but  I 


mmm 

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2 

3 

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10 

11 

12  '. 
13 
14 
15 
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18 
19 
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21 
22 


""miFIB 


89 


think  that's  right.   And  I  said  hello  to  him.   I  said,  ".^h 
we  meet  again."   He  sort  of  recognized  me  and  said  hello. 
Or  I  think  he  recognized  me. 

0     Any  further  contact  with  Miller,  whether  in 
person  or  by  telephone  or  letter  or  otherwise? 

A     No. 

Q     When  were  you  first  told  that  NEPL  was  a  tax 
exempt  organization? 

A     I  don't  recall  the  exact  moment  at  which  I  was 
told  that.   It  was  some  time  in  March  or  April  of  1986. 

0     Would  it  have  been  in  one  of  your  phone 
solicitations  from  Jane  McLaughlin? 

A     It  may  have  been.   I  think  in  this  pile  of 
material  here  there  is  a  501(c)(3)  certification  from  the 
IRS. 

0     Who  would  have  provided  you  with  that 
certification? 

A     NEPL.   They  sent  a  package  of  material  at  some 
point  to  me,  and  their  tax  exempt  status  was  outlined 
there. 

0     Did  anyone  tell  you  that  NEPL  was  a  tax  exempt 
organization,  rather  than  sending  you  the  certification? 


Wl£^m 


Inc 


580 


i/Ntusjm 


oqiO  02  02     1  -"-wBt  11.1/  90 

...ikepaulus  1  i       A     That  was  my  understanding.   I  don't  remember 

2  j  exactly  if  anyone  actually  said  that  or  not. 

3  0     Were  you  told  that  your  contributions  would  be 

4  deductible? 
i 

51       A     I  understood  that  they  would  be. 

6  I       0     How  did  you  arrive  at  that  understanding? 

I 

7  i       A     Because  by  the  time  I  made  the  contribution  it 

8  was  clear  to  me  that  this  was  a  tax  exempt  organization  and 

9  I  that  it  would  be  a  deductible  contribution. 
i         ;. 

10  0     Why  did  you  choose  to  hand  deliver  your  $130,000 

11  contribution  to  Mr.  Channell  rather  than  send  it  Federal 

12  Express  to  his  home? 

13  A     I  was  concerned  about  security.   I  felt  this  was 

I 

14  an  extremely  secret  operation,  and  that  not  only  agencies 

15  of  the  United  States  Government,  but  foreign  agencies, 

16  anybody,  the  press,  the  Democrats,  everybody  would  be 

17  interested  in  this  kind  of  a  thing.   It  was  quite 

18  conceivable  that  the  phones  were  tapped.   So  I  made  no 

19  appointment.   I  just  showed  up. 

20  0     It  was  at  your  own  instance? 

21  A     Yes. 

22  Q     During  your  luncheon  in  mid-April  with 


uiussra.,.. 


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91 


Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Conrad  in  New  York,  you  mentioned 
earlier  that  you  stated  to  them  a  concern  that  you  had 
about  the  legality  of  NEPL's  work.   What  was  their 
response? 

A     I  believe  Mr.  Channell  said  don't  worry  about 
it,  this  has  been  set  up  by  lawyers  who  are  very  close  to 
the  Administration.   Or  maybe  it  was  even  White  House 
lawyers.   Something  like  that.   I  forget  the  exact 
arrangement  he  described.   It  goes  into  NEPL,  goes  into 
another  corporation  which  has  a  contract  with  another 
corporation  overseas  and  it  can  never  be  traced.   That  was 
his  response. 

0     Did  he  mention  what  those  other  corporations 
were? 

A     No. 

0     Did  he  mention  more  specifically  from  whom  they 
received  their  legal  advice? 

A     No. 

0     Why  did  you  have  a  background  check  done  into 
NEPL  and  Mr.  Channell? 

A     I  wanted  to  make  sure  that  he  was  legitimate, 
that  he  was  who  he  said  he  was, 


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0     Is  it  routine  for  you  to  have  background  checks 
done  on  people  who  solicit  you  for  money? 

A     Not  always,  but  sometimes.   Business  partners  or 
people  I  might  be  involved  in  business  with  who  I  might 
have  some  concern  about,  or  perhaps  people  who  are  asking 
for  money.   Sometimes  I  do  take  steps  to  check  them  out. 

0     Do  you  recall  when  you  contracted  for  the 
background  check  on  Channell? 

A     There  is  a  letter  here.   I  think  was  early 
April.   Shortly  after  I  made  the  contribution. 

0     Was  there  anything  particular  about  Channell 
that  caused  you  to  have  a  background  check  contracted  for 
him? 

A  The  whole  thing  was  an  unusual  situation,  a 
secret  situation.  I  felt  somewhat  concerned  about  the 
whole  thing.   That's  what  drove  me  to  do  it. 

0     You  mentioned  earlier  in  your  second  meeting 
with  Colonel  North  he  basically  withdrew  the  request  of  the 
need  for  Blowpipes,  saying  that  the  Blowpipes  were  no 
longer  available.   If  my  memory  serves  me  right,  you 
mentioned  that^^^^^^H  was  the  country  to  which  he  had 
referred.   Could  the  country  have  beer 


RS.  InC 


Atf-FeDER-AL 


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A     It  might  have  been. 

0     Does  that  refresh  your  recollection  as  to  what 
country  North  might  have  referred  to? 

A     I  have  been  saying  ^^^^^^^H  but  it  may  have 
I  am  not  quite  clear.   As  I  recall,  it  was  a 
[country.   I  may  be  mistaken.   It  may  have 


been 


MR.  KAPLAN:   I  have  no  further  questions. 
EXAMINATION 

BY  MR.  BUCK: 

You  mentioned  at  the  beginning  of  the  deposition 
a  few  hours  ago  that  you  were  independently  wealthy.   Could 
you  put  sort  of  a  general  figure  on  that  independent 
wealth? 

MR.  NEWMAN:   I  am  not  sure  that  that  is  within 
the  scope  of  your  examination.   I  have  other  problems  with 
that  question  related  to  a  situation  extant  in  New  York, 
and  I  am  going  to  direct  him  not  to  answer.   I  am  going  to 
seek  a  ruling  on  that,  because  I  think  it  is  outside  the 
scope  of  this  examination. 

BY  MR.  BUCK: 
0     Did  Mr.  Channell  have  any  idea  of  your  general 


UNCLASSIFIED 

Ace-Ffdcr.al  Reporters,  inc. 


584 


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wealth? 

A     Before  he  met  me? 

0     Before  he  met  you.   You  mentioned  that 
Mr.  Ferguson  referred  your  name  to  Mr.  Channell. 

A     I  don't  know  whether  he  did  or  not. 

0     There  were  no  indications  to  you  that  he  did 


have? 


No. 


MR.  BUCK:   The  only  reason  I  asked  that  question 
is  because  Mr.  Channell  seemed  to  pursue  Mr.  0 'Boyle. 

MR.  NEWMAN:   I  understand.   I  am  not  finding 
fault,  but  it  tangentially  involves  something  else  we  have 
pending  in  the  city  that  I  am  concerned  about. 

BY  MR.  BUCK: 
Q     Were  you  at  all  suspicious  about  the  expensive 
tastes  of  the  Channell  organization.   You  were  picked  up,  I 
believe,  at  the  airport  by  a  limousine  and  taken  to  the 
Hay-Adams  Hotel.   Did  that  make  you  at  all  suspicious  that 
a  charitable  organization  would  have  tastes  like  that? 

A     I  wondered  a  little  bit  about  it,  but  then  I 
thought  that  this  was  sort  of  a  stylistic  type  thing  that 
Mr.  Channel!  was  adopting  to  cultivate  wealthy  people. 


Inc. 


Ace-Federa 


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0     Did  Colonel  North  ever  ask  you  for  a 
contribution  at  any  point? 

A      No. 

Q      I  take  it  if  he  never  asked  you  for  a 
contribution  he  never  directed  to  what  organization  you 
should  contribute  money. 

A     That's  right.   As  a  matter  of  fact,  he  said  on 
more  than  one  occasion  that  he  could  not  ask  for  money, 
that  he  was  not  there  to  ask  for  money. 

0     Did  you  take  a  charitable  deduction  on  your 
income  taxes  for  the  donations  that  you  made  to  the 
Channell  organizations? 

MR.  NEWMAN:   His  tax  return  for  '86  is  in 
extension. 

BY  MR.  BUCK: 

0     Do  you  plan  on  taking  a  charitable  deduction? 

A     No. 

0     Why  is  it  that  you  will  not  claim  a  deduction? 

A     Upon  advice  of  counsel. 

0     I  think  you  mentioned  before  that  you  were 
assured  the  $130,000  that  you  donated  in  actuality  did 
purchase  two  Maule  airplanes. 


UNWSm 

Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 


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A  Yes. 

0  But   you    received    no   other   evidence   of    that    from 

Mr.    Channell? 

A  That's   correct. 

0  If    I    told   you   that    that    $130,000    never  purchased 

those   two  airplanes,    would   you   be   surprised? 

A  Yes. 

0     You  mentioned  several  stories  that  Colonel  North 
told  you  over  a  period  of  time,  examples  of  Colonel  North 
being  involved  in  capturing  drug  smugglers  and  various 
activities  like  that.   Did  you  have  a  feeling  that  Colonel 
North  was  exaggerating  at  any  point  in  time? 

A     No. 

0     Did  you  feel  that  he  could  tell  a  story?  Not 
necessarily  make  up  the  complete  story,  but  add  to  the 
story  some  way. 

A     No.   I  didn't  feel  he  was  embellishing  the 


story. 


concluded . ) 


MR.  BUCK:   I  have  no  further  questions. 
MR.  FRYMAN:   I  have  no  further  questions. 
MR.  KAPLAN:   No  further  questions. 
(Whereupon  at  1:25  p.m.  the  deposition  was 

ONCLASSIFIED 

Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 


587 


UNCLASSIFIED 


CEl^TIFICATE  OF  JJOTARY  PUBLIC  S  REPORTER 
I,  Michael  G.  Paulus,  the  officer  before  whom  the 
foregoins  deposition  was  taken,  do  hereby  certify  that  the 
witness  whose  testimony  appears  in  the  foregoing  deposition 
was  duly  ^worn  by  me;  that  the  testimony  of  said  witness  was 
taken  in  shorthand  and  thereafter  reduced  to  typewriting  by 
me  or  under  my  direction;  that  said  deposition  is  a  true 
record  of  the  testimony  given  by  said  witness;  that  I  am 
neither  counsel  for,  related  to,  nor  employed  by  any  of  the 
parties  to  the  action  in  which  this  deposition  was  taken; 
and  further,  that  I  am  not  a  relative  or  employee  of  any 
attorney  or  counsel  employed  by  the  parties  hereto,  nor 
financially  or  otherwise  interested  in  the  outcome  of  the 
action . 


My  Commission  Expires 
February  29,  1992 


Notary  Public  in  and  for  the 
District  of  Columbia 


%?^ 


RiriTiLif  v.\  l.p.\oi» 


588 


UNCLASSSrItD 


RODERT  H  MiCHF.L 
L'mtpd  ST.vns  («s(.ki  s^ 


August    IS,    1986 


Mr,   Spitz  Channell,   President 
The  National  Endowment  of  the 

Preservation  of  Liberty 
305  4th  Street.   N.E. 
Washington,   D.   C.   20002 

Dear  Spitz: 

I  just  want  to  thank  you  for  the  contributions  you 
made  to  our  efforts  in  the  House  on  behalf  of  Nicara- 
guan  freedom-fighters. 

Obviously,   no  issue  of  this  high  degree  of  contro- 
versy can  be  won  in  the  House  without  help  from  people 
like  you. 

We  all  appreciate  your  commitment  to  the  cause  of 
freedom. 


RHM:lpj 


irt  H.    Michel 
Republican  Leader 


IIIIIIIHIIM  IK  I  u    lum,!^ 

by  K  Johnson.  National  Security  Council 


•t. 


^HCl^SS\Tlt« 


589 


ȣ'.;-:iV  WHIP 
«U.£S  CCVMirTEE 


UNCLASSJf;£D 


ConarcU£f  of  tfje  Wihitch  ^tatti' 
^)ouit  of  J\eprc£fen(atibea     ' 
HIasfjingfon,  J3C  20515 


July  24.  1986 


Mr.  Spitz  Channell,  President 
The  National  Endowment  for  the 

Preservation  of  Liberty 
305  -  4th  Street,  NE 
Washington,  D.C.  20002 

Dear  Spitz: 

The  reception  on  Monday  night  was  obviously  a  ereac 
thar!o™Hr  /"".'"'^  representative  of  the  various  fo'rce 
that  combined  to  give  us  the  Contra  Aid  victory  on  June  25 

Without  the  efforts  of  the  National  Endowment  for 
the  Preservation  of  Liberty  and  your  related  organizations 
this  victory  would  have  been  very  unllkelv    ^B-niza t ion s , 

VniMro'.r'r^''  •^^'  •  dim:nLo„"'th:j^i3  L°v:iu:bi:^trL" 

and  the  other  Congressional  leaders. 


Again,  thanks  for  your  help  and  I  look  forward  to 
.ur  working  together  in  the  future.   With  warmest  best  wl 


shes  , 


"o"ia:!i  OLiinjjifuj/fieleased  on    Ul-CgfePS 
""  '  "  r'  r  fl   11?ii 

Dv  f\  Joiinson.  National  Secutily  Council 


TL:  sw 


Sincerely    yours , 


^"^^^M^^j 


BNeiASStFiED 


CGV-'";;  C-.  ARr.'EO  SERVICES 
COM'.'  TT£E  C.  SMALL  BUSINESS 


590 


uMCLASS»F;ta 


J^ouit  of  B^epre^entatibed 

8ZIas(t)ington.  1B€  20515 

August    26,     1986 


Mr.    Carl    Russell    Channell 

National    Endowment    For    The    Preservation    of    Liberty 

305    Fourth    Street 

Suite    1000 

Washington,  D.C.  20002 

Dear  Mr.  Channell: 

I  am  writing  to  extend  my  most  sincere  congratulations  to  the 
National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty. 

Over  the  past  8  months,  your  program  entitled,  "Central 
American  Freedom  Program,"  has  contributed  in  a  significant  way  to 
the  progress  we  have  made  in  Nicaragua. 

We  are  involved  not  only  in  a  fight  to  keep  our  hemisphere 
free,  but  also  in  a  battle  for  the  support  of  the  American  public. 
In  both  arenas,  our  opponents  are  shrewd  and  relentless. 

We  must  all  be  alert  to  the  need  for  continued  vigilance.   It 
is  not  enough  that  we  continue  to  seek  the  support  of  our 
countrymen  in  this  important  endeavor.   We  must  labor  to  make  sure 
that  the  way  we  conduct  this  fight  continues  to  be  worthy  of  their 
support.   Any  mistake  that  we  make  will  be  amplified  by  our 
skillfull  adversaries. 

I  pledge  my  continued  efforts  in  this  important  battle  to 
keep  our  hemisphere  free,  and  congratulate  you  again  for  the 
outstanding  work  done  by  your  fine  organization. 


•"iiiulli  Oi.Uujjifed/Released  on  JlF^:^6 
"*'"'  I  III  iiiinn  nl  C  0    IJOCC 
oy  K  Johnson,  National  Security  Council 


Member   of    Corxq/ass 


(^ 


<25  CANNON  OFFICE  8LDC   .WASHINGTON   OC  -iJOJl  2JS-5901  -TOLL  FREE  |0A|  i -SnO-JIJ-SCCT 


591 


ArFROPRiATlCNS  CCI" 


inssfftw 


ton^xtei  of  tf)e  ^niteb  ^tatti 
Jl^ouit  of  i^epresfentatibed 

Hiftiiniiton.  fiC  20515 
Au^st  4,    1986 


Mr.    Spitz  Channel! 

President 

National  Endowment  for  the 

Preservation  of  Liberty 
305  4th   Street,    N.E. 
Washington,   DC.    20002 

Dear  Spitz: 

When  your  Central  American  Freedom  Program  began  to  unfold  it  was  clear 
that  your  organization  had  researched  the  issue  well  and  was  ready  to  help 
our  cause  to  ultimate  victory. 

The  television  messages  that  your  organization  produced  and  the 
excellent  coordination  you  provided  for  Nicaraguan  leaders  was  an  effective 
method  for  educating  the  public.     We  have  come  a  very  long  way  from  the  days 
of  small  margins  of  victory  for  tiny  amounts  of  aid  to  the  Freedom  Fighters. 
Certainly,   without  your  support  the  public  would  have  been  ignorant  of  the 
issues  facing  the  Congress. 

I  want  to  congratulate  you  on  a  first  class  effort  and  to  encourage  you 
to  continue  to  involve  yourself  in  the  foreign  policy  arena  so  that  we  can 
continue  to  win  victories  like  the  one  on  June  25th. 


Siacerely , 


-f^iimii  OalujijilKKl/Released  onJ±^3S6 

mtin  pfoiijiuiu  111  CO   mji 

by  K  Johnson.  Naljonal  Secur.ry  Council 


RLL:jb 


/bOBERT  L.    LIVINGSTON 
Member  of  Congress 


592 


UNCLASSiriED 

NATIONAL  SECURITY  COUNCIL 
WASHINGTON   O  C     2050e 


May  2,  1986 


Dear  Bill: 

Here  is  the  situation  today.   Congressman  Bob  Michel,  Republican 
Leader  of  the  House  of  Representatives,  persuaded  a  majority  of 
the  House  to  vote  overwhelmingly  for  a  bill  which  got  the 
President's  Freedom  Fighter  package  away  from  being  included  as  a 
supplement  to  a  huge  Democrat-sponsored  spending  bill. 

This  spending  bill,  if  passed,  faces  an  almost  certain  veto  by 
President  Reagan.   Michel's  adroit  leadership  has  now  effectively 
saved  the  Freedom  Fighter  aid  bill,  intact,  for  what  we  hope  will 
be  a  final  vote  during  the  week  of  June  9.   He  is  determined  to 
emerge  victorious,  even  if  he  must  doggedly  wear  down  the 
opposition. 

You  are  obviously  supporting  the  President  for  the  long  term  as 
well.   I  want  to  thank  you  so  very  much  for  all  you  are  doing  to 
support  President  Reagan  and  to  help  assure  a  victory  for  freedom 
in  Central  America. 

We  are  entering  a  critical  period  now  in  the  legislative 
struggle.   The  President  is  chipping  away  at  the  opposition  and 
gaining  solid  momentum  for  a  clear  victory  in  the  next  three 
weeks.   This  is  due  in  no  small  way  to  your  support  of  the 
ongoing  Central  American  Freedom  Program  of  the  National 
Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty. 

I  hope  you  will  remain  steadfast  with  the  President  as  he  leads 
this  effort.   I  know  personally  that  he  values  your  help  very 
much.   We  must  continue  to  work  together  for  the  success  of  the 
President's  policy.   It's  been  a  long  struggle  --  we're  almost 
there.   Please  maintain  your  invaluable,  strong  support. 


undef  provisions  ol  E  0,  12356 
by  K.  Johnson,  National  Secunly  Council 


Sincerely, 

Oliver  L.  North 
Deputy  Director, 
Political-Military  Affairs 


Mr.  William  B.  O'Boyle 
630  Fifth  Avenue 
Suite  863 
New  York,  NY   10111 


€^ 


UNCLASStFtEd 


593 


NATIONAL  SECURITY  COUNCIL 
WASHINGTON   OC     20S06 


July  23,  1986 


Dear  Mr.  O'Boyle: 

America  is  now  at  the  verge  of  answering 
Soviets  laid  down  in  Nicaragua.  When  the 
need  of  support  and  sustained  faith  in  th 
helped  to  provide  both.  The  struggle  for 
must  first  be  won  in  the  halls  of  Congres 
dedication  and  resolve  to  stay  with  the  P 
campaign,  neither  victory  would  be  possib 
approves  the  aid,  we  will  finally  be  at  a 
truly  make  a  contribution  to  a  democratic 


the  challenge  the 
President  was  most  in 

is  leadership,  you 
freedom  in  Nicaragua 
Without  your 

resident  in  this  long 

le.   Once  the  Senate 
point  where  we  can 
outcome  in  Nicaragua. 


All  Americans  owe  you  a  great  debt.   As  men  who  have  lived 
through  combat  know,  without  a  sustained  level  of  support,  those 
in  the  front  lines  can  accomplish  nothing.   Your  perseverance  in 
the  cause  of  freedom  and  President  Reagan's  dream  for  a  free 
Nicaragua  were  the  sustaining  measure  that  will  carry  us  that 
last  difficult  mile. 

For  your  patriotism,  courage,  and  dedication,  thank  you. 

Sincerely, 


Oliver  L.  North 
Deputy  Director 
Political-Military  Affairs 


fdiliijll^  Di-lajjilnU/Released  on_!iM6_88 
miiii  lUiiiiiM  it  CO   lOQgS 

by  K  Johnson,  National  Sccunty  Council 


Mr.  William  B.  O'Boyle 

630  Fifth  Avenue,  Suite  863 

New  York,  NY   10111 


UNCLASSIFIED 


594 


GH0LA3S!F:ED 


I^^Declassitiel'Released  on  Itf^tiBi 

under  ofovisions  ol  £  0  12355 
by  K.  Johnson.  National  Secunry  Council 


.^^5> 


iiNCLASSIFSED^  ^ 


yV>OkJV*^-/ 


595 


LNOLASSIFBED 


"Since  the  down  of  the  nuclear 
age,  every  American  President 
has  sought  to  limit  and  end 
the  dangerous  competition 
in  nuclear  arms.  I  have 
no  higher  priority  than 
to  finally  realize 
that  dream . . ." 


NOLASSIFIED  ^ 


596 


597 


iaiiaissiH£D__ 


THE  WHITE  HOLSE 

WASHINGTON 

December  18,  1985 


Dear  Spitz: 

I  want  to  thank  you  for  the  fine  series  of  television 
messai^es  you  broadcast  three  weeks  before  we  left  for 
Geneva.     "Morning  of  Peace"  captured  the  true  spirit  of 
my  dream,  our  Strategic  Defense  Initiative,  a  shield  to 
protect  our  children  and  their  children  from  the  threat 
of  nuclear  war.     I  firmly  believe  that  we  can  achieve 
this  goal  and  end  the  insanity  of  the  arms  race. 

Your  televised  messages  and  the  steadfast  support  in  a 
variety  of  foreign  policy  areas  of  the  American 
Conservative  Trust  means  a  great  deal  to  me.     Please 
keep  up  the  good  work.     With  your  continued  help  I 
know  we  can  succeed  for  the  next  generation,  and  for 
all  the  generations  to  come.     Nancy  Joins  me  in  wishing 
you  and  your  associates  all  the  joys  of  the  Season. 
God  bless  you. 

Sincerely , 


4\<jv«.vAflL  r  ^^^i^.^ 


Mr.  Carl  Russell  Channell 

President 

The  American  Conservative  Trust 

305  Fourth  Street,  N.B. 

Washington,   D.C.     20002 


UNCLASSIFIED 


598 


GNCLASSIF'lED 


The  Historic 
opportunity 
to  Strengtiien 
American 
Security 


STRATEGIC 

DEFENSE 

INITIATIVE 


P 

JL  reside 


.resident  Reagans  Strategic  Defense 
initiative  (SD!)  is  the  most  significant  strategic 
development  in  the  history  of  U.S.  -  Soviet  relations 
since  the  acquisition  of  the  atomic  bomb  by  the 
Soviet  Union,  if  allowed  to  be  fully  developed,  it 
will  greatly  enhance  America's  security.  Equally 
important,  it  will  offer  the  superpowers  a  dramatic 
opportunity  to  establish  a  lasting  peace  by  render- 
ing nuclear  weapons  obsolete. 

The  Congress,  however,  has  been  slow  to 
realize  the  opportunity  inherent  in  a  fully  funded, 
on-time  SDI.  It  has  provided  only  about  60  per- 
cent of  the  President's  funding  request  for  SDI 
research  and  development  in  the  past  three  years 
Thus,  the  program  at  current  funding  levels  will  be 
consciously  delayed  and  drawn  out.  Timing  is 
important.  The  Soviets,  who  began  their  own 
strategic  defense  efforts  nearly  two  decades  ago. 
are  determined  to  deploy  their  own  system  and 
are  accelerating  their  development  of  new  offen- 
sive and  defensive  strategic  systems  while  the 
United  States  lags. 


UNCLASSIFIED 


599 


UNCLASSIFIED 


".  .  .  every 
President-has 
dreamt  of 
leauing  the 
world  a  safer 
place  than  he 
found  it.  I 
pledge  to  you. 
my  goal— and  I 
consider  it  a 
sacred  trust- 
will  be  to  make 
progress 
toward  arms 
reduction  in 
every  one  of 
the  several 
negotiations 
now 
underway." 

President  Reagan  s  Remarks 
to  the  Los  .\ngeles  world 
.\ffairs  Council. 
March  31.1  983 


Soviet  Fear 
of  American 
Space 
Advancement 


ihe 


he  impressive 
enhancement  of  American 
defenses  under  the  Reagan 
Administration  and  the  pro- 
mise of  a  Strategic  Defense 
program  are  fundamentally 
responsible  for  having 
brought  the  Soviets  to  the 
Geneva  summit  last 
November 

Until  last  year  the 
Soviets  had  little  motivation 
to  negotiate  on  nuclear 
weapons  and  other  Issues 
in  fact,  after  the  Reagan 
Administration  had  spent 
months  trying  to  sit  down 
with  them,  the  Soviet 
negotiators  abruptly  walked 
out  of  talks  convened  in 
Geneva  in  i  983  The  much- 
improved  US  defense  pos- 
ture, the  Presidents  March 
1  983  SDl  speech.  Ronald 
Reagan  s  re-election  in 
1  984  and  .\merican 
technological  superiority  in 
space  research  and  explora- 
tion were  compelling  factors 
in  bringing  Moscow  to  the 
conference  table  late  last 
year 

Finally,  the  rise  of  a 
relatively  youthful,  attractive 
Russian  leader.  Gorbachev, 
gave  the  political  leaders  of 
the  Soviet  Union  what  they 
perceived  as  a  strong  boost 


vis-a-vis  the  international 
media  and  world  public       f 
opinion,  .\fter  years  of  frosty 
relations  the  time  had  come 
to  project  a  moderate  pro- 
peace  image  in  order  to 
forestall  American  advances 
and  lull  .^merlcan  allies  into 
strategic  lethargy 

Lagging  in  technology-, 
economic  \  iialiry.  and  so- 
phistication and  pressed  to 
commit  resources  else- 
where, the  Soviet  Union  fears 
the  .American  SDI.  Such  a 
system  and  its  foreign 
policy  power  implications 
will  be  able  to  neutralize  the 
threat  of  the  massive  Sov  let 
nuclear  arsenal. 

Brlefl>'.  a  deplov  ed 
strategic  defense  would  pre- 
vent nearly  all  of  the 
U  S.S  R  s  iCB.Ms  from  reach- 
ing iheir  targets  in  the  United 
States  This  means  that  a 
successful  Sov  let  first  strike 
capabilitv-  would  be 
eliminated  .And  in  the  event 
of  nuclear  war.  the  U.S.. 
although  potentially  hurl, 
could  retaliate  massively 
and  decisively  Retaliation. 
however,  is  not  the  objec- 
tive Rather,  it  is  to  make 
nuclear  weapons  useless 
by  assuring  that  they  would 
never  reach  their  targets 


UNCUSSIF-a 


600 


iNCLASSIFJEO 


enable  to  deliver  a  nuclear 
blow  to  the  united  States, 
the  Soviet  Lnion  would  see 
Its  power  significantly 
reduced 

Inability  to  maintain 
the  credible  (successful  and 
effective)  destructi\e  threat 
of  its  arsenal  necessarily 
weakens  the  SoMei  power 
intimidation  position  visa- 
vis  the  L'niied  States  and  the 
rest  of  the  world.  A  common 
thread  of  Soviet  foreign 
policy  is  to  threaten  to  rain 
down  awesome  nuclear 
destruction  on  nations  allied 
with  the  C  S  which  the 
So\iets  wish  to  influence 
This  IS  naked  nuclear 
intimidation.  Successi^■e 
Soviet  leaders  have  raised 
the  threat  Gorbachev  used 
It  last  December  in  a  letter  to 
the  Greater  London  City 
Council  in  an  ob\ious 


attempt  to  influence  British 
decisions  on  defense  policy 
for  1  986 

A  fully  deployed 
.\merican  Strategic  Defense 
will  present  the  Soviets  with 
a  new  reality,  one  which  will 
require  more  acceptable 
and  necessarily  more 
peaceful  behav  ior  on  the 
part  of  the  Soviet  union  for 
decades  to  come. 

The  Soviet  union 
failed  to  win  concessions  on 
SDl  in  Geneva.  But  it  ex- 
pended tens  of  millions  of 
dollars  in  the  months  lead- 
ing up  to  the  Summit  In 
attempting  to  shape 
European  and  American 
public  opinion  against  SDl. 
So  crucial  is  SDls  failure  to 
Soviet  strategy  that  the 
Russians  ha^  e  continued  to 
use  their  vast  resources  in  a 
propaganda  and  disinfor- 


"The  Soviet  Union  has  military 
superiority  over  the  United  States. 
Henceforth,  the  United  States  ivill 
be  threatened.  It  had  better  get 
used  to  it." 

Marshal  .Nikola/  v  Ogarkou. 
Chief  of  the  Soviet  General  Staff 


mation  struggle  against  the 
Reagan  .\dministration  s 
research  and  development 
program  .^lthough  other 
reasons  have  been  given, 
the  So\iet  delay  in  agreeing 
on  a  summit  in  the  united 
States  is  designed  to  gi\e 
the  Russians  more  time  for 
their  efforts  to  weaken  the 
Presidents  SDl  Also.  the\ 
may  attempt  to  make  it  an 
election  issue  this  fall. 

Funhermore.  Gor- 
bachevs  Januar\  and 
March  proposals,  made  in 
public  speeches  and  not 
presented  officially  to  the 
US.  while  welcome,  are 
more  than  mere  proposals 
They  are  propaganda  effons 
to  project  the  new-  Soviet 
leadership  as  peacemakers, 
as  the  reasonable,  sincere 
opposites  of  a  belligerent 
.\merica  They  seek  to  lull 
European  and  .^merlcan 
public  opinion  into  believing 
that  SDl  IS  no  longer 
necessary,  given  Soviet 
good  faith  and  the  new. 
more  reasonable  leader- 
ship. In  other  words,  the 
Soviets  will  do  with  pro- 
paganda and  soft  sell 
targeted  on  public  opinion 
what  they  cannot  do  at  the 
negotiating  table 


LNCLASSIFl'ED 


601 


[:nclassifif!il 


Evidence  of  such 
efforts  were  the  multi-page 
acl^■ertlsemenls  the  Soviet 
government  placed  on 
March  2  I  in  the  Washington 
Post,  the  Seiv  York  Times. 
the  Los  Angeles  Times  and 
LSA  Today  Costing  nearly 
a  quarter  of  a  million  dollars, 
the  ads  depicted  the 
Russians  as  responding 
defensiv  ely  to  threatened 
nuclear  attack  from  the 
United  States  They  cited 
SDl  as  the  planned 
nuclearization  of  space  and 
an  escalation  of  the  arms 
race 

Bui  Moscovv  has  done 
much  more,  from  funding 
anil- nuclear  movements 
and  organizing  international 
conferences  lo  manipulating 
the  media  in  Geneva  That 
ihey  have  succeeded  is  evi- 
dent in  the  fact  that  the 
majority  of  American  media 
commeniaiors  at  the  time 
indicated  thai  lo  accomplish 
something  at  Geneva  the 
President  had  to  gi\e  con- 
cessions on  SDl  He  did  not, 
however,  give  in  .\nd  his 
steadfastness  illustrates  his 
belief  that  SDl  is  so  critically 
imponani  to  U  S  security 


The  Vast  SoN'ict 
Campaign  to 
Capture 
American 
Public  Support 


Ma 


,ake  no  mistake 
about  it.  The  Soviets 
genuinely  fear  a  completed 
American  Strategic  Defense. 
But  that  fear  does  not  con- 
cern their  territorial  safety. 
Rather,  that  fear  concerns 
their  continued  ability  to  use 
the  threat  of  nuclear 
annihilation  to  intimidate 
and  blackmail  other  nations 
into  submission  or  admis- 
sion of  Soviet  supremacy 

With  dramatic  full-page 
advertisements  in  major 
newspapers,  scores  of 
television  interviews,  books, 
articles,  front  organizations 
and  governmental  pro- 


paganda efforts,  the  So\  lets 
are  spending  millions  of 
dollars  to  prevent  SDl  from 
going  forward  as  the  Presi- 
dent desires,  seuer  have  the 
Soviets  icanted  so  des- 
perately to  block  an 
American  defense  program 
They  understand  well  the 
influence  of  .\merican 
public  opinion  on  govern- 
ment policy. 

Although  recent 
surveys  indicate  that 
Americans  favor  a  workable 
alternative  to  mutual 
assured  destruction  (.vt\Di. 
anti-nuclear  interest  groups 
have  largely  framed  the  SDl 


"The  defense  policy  of  the  United 
States  is  based  on  a  simple 
premise:  The  United  States  does 
not  start  fights.  We  luill  never  be 
an  aggressor  we  maintain  our 
strength  in  order  to  deter  and 
defend  against  aggression— to 
preserve  freedom  and  peace." 

Presidents  Address  to  the 
Sation.  March  23.  I  983 


imXM^'B 


602 


UNCLASSIFIED 


debate  and  have  suc- 
ceeded in  distorting  public 
perceptions  of  what  has 
lamentably  become  well 
known  as   star  wars."  Here 
the  emphasis  Is  ivar—to  the 
delight  of  the  Soviets' 

The  Soviets  are 
bolstered  in  their  effons  by 
those  in  America  who.  for 
many  reasons,  oppose  SDl. 
The  opposition  uses  seven 
key  arguments: 
SDl  will  never  work; 
SDl  means  the  militarization 
of  outer  space: 
SDl  escalates  the  arms  race; 
SDl  research  could  go  on 
IndefiniteK': 
SDl  costs  too  much: 
SDl  is  nuclear; 
SDl  \  iolates  the  ,\ntiBallisilc 
.Missile  Treaty 

These  arguments, 
combined  with  public  and 


legislative  concern  about 
balancing  the  budget, 
resulted  in  congressional 
funding  of  only  60  percent 
of  what  the  President 
requested  for  the  first  stages 
of  SDl  research  and 
development.  Since  that 
time.  Congress  has  passed 
the  Gramm-Rudman- 
Hollings  budget  bill 
However,  the  legislative 
calendar  now  provides  a 
window  to  secure  full  fund- 
ing for  the  Presidents  pack- 
age to  bring  the  program  s 
timetable  up  to  date,  we 
must  use  this  window  of 
opponunity  to  dramatically 
strengthen  Americas  securi- 
ty The  Soviets  are  deter- 
mined to  complete  their 
space  defense  first.  The 
Presidents  dream  must  be 
our  goal— and  now 


"It  is  not  an  impossible  dream 
tliat  we  can  begin  to  reduce 
nuclear  arsenals,  reduce  the  risk 
of  war.  and  build  a  solid 
foundation  for  peace." 

Presidents  Address  to  the 
Sation.  \ovember  1 4.  1  985 


"While  arms 
control  can 
potentially 
play  a  role  in 
enhancing  our 
security  and 
bringing  about 
a  more  stable 
strategic 
relationship, 
what  we  are 
able  and 
willing  to  do 
for  ourselves 
is  far  more 
important:  it 
provides  the 
necessary 
foundation 
on  which 
deterrence  and 
arms  control 
must  rest." 

Paul  H.  Sitze.  Special  .\duisor 
to  the  President  and 
Secretary  of  State  on  Arms 
Control  Matters. 
February  4.  1 986 


nN(^i  assiFPEn 


603 


CiNClilSJSIFBED 


Objectixes 


G 


i\  en  the  high 
moral  imperaiiv  e  of 
Siraiegic  Defense  for  our 
long-term  securit\-  and  pos- 
sible peace,  the  National 
Endowment  for  the  Preser- 
vation of  Libenv  belie\  es 
that  the  current  goal  of 
Strategic  Defense  must  be 
realized  — the  sooner  the  bet- 
ter To  help  educate  and 
inform  Americans  about  the 
nature  of  the  Strategic 
Defense  concept,  the 
Endowment  is  conducting  a 
multi-faceted  public  educa- 
tion and  information  pro- 
gram using  a  combination 
of  media  and  press 
activities  in  order  lo; 


( 1 1  reveal  and  counter 
So\iei  disinformation 
and  other  untruthful 
information; 

i2i  educate  the  public  about 
the  true  significance  and 
role  of  the  Strategic 
Defense  initiative  to 
.\merlca  s  military'  and 
alliance  security; 

i3)  measure,  describe  and 
publicize  public  attitudes 
on  the  Strategic  Defense 
initiative; 

(4)  study  and  report  the 
impact  of  the  public  s 
views  on  the  Strategic 
Defense  initiative  in 
selected  areas  around 
the  country 


"Winston  Churchill  in  negotiating 
with  the  Soviets,  observed  that 
they  respect  only  strength  and 
resolve  in  their  dealings  with 
other  notions.  That's  why  we've 
moved  to  reconstruct  our 
notional  defenses.  We  intend  to 
keep  the  peace,  we  will  also 
keep  our  freedom." 

Presidents  .\ddress  Before  a 
Joint  Session  of  Congress. 
January  26   I  982 


Support  the 

Presidents 

Program 


ihe 


he  .National 
Endowment  for  the  Preser- 
vation of  Libeny  will  begin 
its  program  in  June  and 
will  continue  through 
October  of  this  year  in  this 
manner,  the  program  can 
operate  fully  during  the 
framing  of  the  debate  during 
budget  hearings  and  in  the 
primary  election  c\  cle  in  the 
Spring.  The  timing  will  ma.x- 
imize  its  educational 
possibilities.  Concurrently  it 
will  bring  public  attitudes  to 
bear  on  the  center  of  the 
debate  the  L  S.  Congress 
The  program  will  include 
the  following  acti\  Ities; 

President's  Message 

we  are  producing  a  brief 
\ideo-taped  statement  by 
President  Reagan  in  which 
he  will  restate  his  historic 
statement  of  .March  198  3 
about  the  significance  of 
SDl  In  It.  he  will  e.xplain  his 
"dream'  of  a  world  free  from 
the  threat  of  nuclear  annihila- 
tion which  can  be  achle^ed 
when  SDl  renders  iCBMs 
obsolete  These  \  ideo 
messages  w  ill  be  made 
available  to  groups  and 
individuals  around  the 
country  who  suppon  the 
President  They  will  also  be 
used  by  speakers  and  in 
television  inter\  lews 


UNCLASSIFIED 


604 


Television  Education 

NEPL  IS  preparing  e>  ecaich- 
ing  television  acl\  er- 
tisemenis.  i  5  and  30 
seconds  in  length,  for  place- 
ment in  careiulK  selected, 
imponant  media  markets 
thoughout  the  united  Slates 
These  creatively  crafted 
spots"  will  reduce  the 
many  complexities  of  SDl 
into  meaningful  and  truthful 
concepts  which  will  be 
readily  understood  by  the 
average  citizen  in  so  doing, 
they  will  counter  the  distor- 
ted perceptions  fostered  by 
deliberate  disinformation 
and  the  media  These  televi- 
sion programs  will  be  the 
heart  of  the  overall  cam- 
paign inasmuch  as  they 
ha\ e  proven  so  valuable  in 
other  public  Information 
efforts 

Newspaper  Advenlsments 

Just  as  the  iele\  ision    spots' 
are  to  be  directed  at 
a\  erage  citizens.  .\EPL  also 
is  thinking  of  those  better 
informed  individuals  for 
whom  telev ision  ads  may 
be  too  elementars-  \%'e 
are  preparing,  therefore, 
extensive  newspaper 
advertisements  which  will 
explore  in  greater  depth  the 
fundamental  moralli>'  of  a 
defensive  svsiem    vhich 


spares  lives  Several  hun- 
dred to  a  few  thousand 
words  in  length,  the 
newspaper  messages  will 
detail  the  Soviet  lead  in 
strategic  defense  systems 
and  the  benefits  of  the 
President  s  program. 

Talk  Shows/Interviews 

Similar  to  the  newspaper 
ads.  a  series  of  appear- 
ances on  telev  ision  and 
radio  by  leading  SDl  experts 
will  inform  the  public  of  the 
benefits  to  be  dern.ed  from 
SDl  research.  Panicipants 
will  Include  academics, 
such  as  Or  Edward  Teller, 
defense  specialists,  media 
analvsis  and  others  who 
will  be  fully  briefed  and  able 
to  present  the  case 
articulately  and  persuasive- 
ly The  interviewed  expens 
vs  ill  appear  on  national, 
regional  and  local  telev  ision 
and  radio  interview  shows 

Newspaper  Articles 

.NEPL  will  write  and  encour- 
age others  to  write  signed 
articles  on  SDi  which  will  be 
placed  on  opinion  pages  of 
the  leading  newspapers 
around  the  country  Among 
these  are  the  wall  Street 
Journal,  the  Sew  York 
Tinies.  LS.\  Today,  the 
washiitgton  Post,  the  Los 


HNCl/ISSinED 


"Proceeding 
boldly  with 
these  new 
technologies, 
we  can 
significantly 
reduce  any 
incentive  that 
the  Soviet 
Union  may 
have  to 
threaten  attack 
against  the 
United  States 
or  its  allies. 

Presidents  Address  to  the 
Sation.  March  23.  1  983 


^HcussiFm 


605 


OWCLASSIRFn 


.Ange/es  Times  and  others. 
The  opinion  articles  will  be 
about  800  words  in  length 
and  will  seek  to  point  out 
the  aggressive  nature  of 
Soviet  policies,  the  impact 
of  Soviet  propaganda  on  the 
debate  and  the  wisdom 
of  SDl. 

Television  Documentary 

losing  a  credible,  documen- 
tary style  of  presentation. 
NEPL  is  producing  a  i  5-  to 
30-minute  video  program 
for  television  which 
explores  the  evolution  of 
U.S.-Soviet  competition  and 
the  promise  of  SDi  to 
eliminate  the  threat  of 
nuclear  destruction.  The 
program  ■    ,1  counter  the 
arguments  of  the  nuclear 
freeze  and  the  anti-nuclear 
movements,  while  present- 
ing unassailable, 
morally  unimpeachable 
arguments  in  fa\  or  of  a 
defensive  s>siem  which 
kills  no  one.  The  completed 
video  programs  are  to  be 
given  to  local  television 
stations  for  use  in  their  news 
and  current  e\  ents 
schedules  in  addition,  the 
programs  can  be  used  by 
speakers,  as  background  or 


as  introductions  for 
inier\  lews,  and  by  civic 
groups  for  panel  discussion 
and  other  activities 

Coalition  Building 

NEPL  is  convinced  that  the 
Strategic  Defense  initiative  is 
a  highly  significant,  crucially 
important  program  which  all 
Americans  have  a  moral 
and  patriotic  obligation  to 
understand  and  judge. 
Therefore.  NEPL  will 
aggressively  increase  the 
possible  impact  of  its  pro- 
gram by  making  its  informa- 
tion available  to  as  many 
inidividuals  and  groups  as 
possible.  Individuals  and 
groups  throughout  the  coun- 
try stand  ready  to  assist  in 
this  critical  educational  cam- 
paign, but  they  often  lack 
the  visual  aids  and  written 
materials  to  present  views 
effectively,  we  plan  to  put 
video  programs,  publi- 
cations, issues,  papers  and 
other  information  in  their 
hands.  A  popular 
groundswell  will  be  the 
result,  one  that  will  be  able 
to  counter  effectively  the 
inevitable  propaganda 
barrage  from 
opponents  of  SDl. 


". . .  there  con 
be  no  greater 
good  than  the 
quest  for 
peace  and  no 
finer  purpose 
than  the 
preservation 
of  freedom. " 

Presidents  Address  Before  a 
Joint  Session  of  Congress. 
S'ouember  2 1.  l  985 


tjNCLA$S!F?ED 


606 


UNCLilSSIFiFn 


\  \I  ION  AL  ll.NDOWMli.NT  fOR  THE  PmiSURX  ATION  Ol-  LIBCR  Pi 

The  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty 
(founded  March  1 984i  is  a  50 1  ia3  organization  which  concen- 
trates its  efforts  on  foreign  policy  issues  relating  to  the  expansion 
of  freedom,  the  support  of  democracy  and  national  security 
problems 

The  Endowment's  philosophy  is  that  in  a  democracy,  public 
policy  IS  most  effectively  influenced  through  a  knowledgeable 
and  informed  electorate  Therefore,  to  achieve  its  goals  the 
Endowment  develops  and  sponsors  public  information  and 
education  programs  to  increase  public  understanding  of 
American  foreign  policy  and  world  e\  ents 

The  central  focus  of  foundation  activities  in  1 985  and  1 986 
has  been  the  violation  of  human  rights  in  Nicaragua  and  the  San- 
dinisia  disinformation  campaign  targeted  on  the  American  public. 
During  the  past  20  months  the  Endowment  sponsored  television 
advertisements  and  a  speakers  program  to  increase  public 
awareness  of  events  in  Central  America. 

The  Endowment  is  also  concerned  about  the  reduction  of 
tension  between  the  superpowers,  believing  that  the  full  deploy- 
ment of  the  Strategic  Defense  initiative  (SDD  will  facilitate  a  lessen- 
ing of  friction  between  the  United  States  and  the  Soviet  union.  In 
.Ma\'  the  Endowment  began  a  comprehensive  multi-media  pro- 
gram to  increase  public  understanding  of  space  defense 

The  .National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty  is  a 
non-profit  (50 1 -€-3)  organization  wholly  funded  by  contributions 
and  grants  from  the  private  sector  and  not  through  any  govern- 
ment funds. 


Graphic  Designer  George  J  vi< 

Photographer  Michael  Evans  Official  whiie  House  Phoiograpner 

Texi  Carl  Russell  cnanneil 

Francis  D  Cornez 

Richata  R  Miller 


Typesening  Joyce  wnne 
Printer  wesTland  Enierpnses 


^^^fCMSSffe 


607 


608 


UNCLASSIFIED 


"This  is  my  goal  (that  we 
Lvill  be  able  to)  pass  on  to 
our  posterity  f/ie  gift  of 
peace  —  that  and  freedom 
are  the  greatest  gifts  that 
one  generation  can 
bequeath  to  another." 

March  31.  1983 


UNCLASSIFIED 


609 


UNCLASSIFi'ED 


V  jS«r  «^j 


The  Sandinista  Military  Build-up 


Released  by  the  Department  of  State  and  the  Department  of  Defense 

Partially  OecidssitieJ'fie'eased  on  I^^*b6 
uncer  i)fOvi5ir;ri3  oi  t  C    I?356 


by  K  JoiiMion.  Nalior.ai  utjs.i'.i  Council 


P'U.-^i  ■ooirirr\ 


610 


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PUBLIC  REPORT 

OF  THE 

VICE  PRESIDENT'S  TASK  FORCE 

ON  COMBATTING  TERRORISM 


eieased  on  QptA^P^ 


Oy  K  Jonnson,  Naiionai  Security  Council 


FEBRUARY  1986 


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by  K  Johnson,  Nauonai  Secuii.v  Council 


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TRANSCRIPT 
OF  PROCEEDINGS 


ORIGINW. 


CONFIDENTIAL 

UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 


DBPOSITION  OF  DUNCAN  OSBORNE 

Washington,  D.  C. 
Thursday,  April  2,  1987 


Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 

Sitnotype  Repoiifrs 


m>2. 


444  North  Capitol  Street  .          /  -) 

■^                                                      Washmgwn,  DC.  20001  ^^ci  ^Y\  L- 
,  ^^  ^  ^  X.  /p^  7                         (202)347-3700 

nadcr  pravWom  of  LO.  12356                    NationMrideComastl  |||  A|  lAAinrn 

||byD.Slriu>.hUdon«JS««HtyC«0.dl                  800-336-6646     lllurl  fl\\|nr|| 


616 


70    01    01 

yaryhoward    1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


UNCussm 


UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION  OF  DUNCAN  OSBORNE 

Washington,  D.C. 
Thursday,  April  2,  1987 
Deposition  of  DUNCAN  OSBORNE,  called  for 
examination  pursuant  to  notice  of  deposition,  at  the 
offices  of  the  Select  Committee,  Room  901,  Hart  Senate 
Office  Building,  at  5:47  a.m.,  before  GARY  S.  HOWARD,  a 
Notary  Public  within  and  for  the  District  of  Columbia,  when 
were  present: 

JAMES  E.  KAPLAN,  Esq. 
Associate  Counsel 

United  States  Senate  Select  Committee  on 
Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran  and 
the  Nicaraguan  Opposition 
Room  901,  Senate  Hart  Office  Building 
Washington,  D.C. 


UNCUSSIFIED 

ArF-FrnFRAI    REPORTERS    iNr 


617 


■7  01  01 
Ljdryhoward  1 
2 

3  I 
4 
5 

6  : 

7  ' 

3  ; 

9  i 
10 

11   ; 

12 

13  ' 

14  : 

15  ' 

16  I 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


UNCUSSiriED 


KEN  BUCK,  Esq. 
THOMAS  FRYMAN,  Esq. 

House  Select  Committee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions  With  Iran 


UNCLASSIHED 


\     *-»•-      Cr-r^^**     .     »         Dt-I^Z-^OTC 


618 


37  01  01 
-:,dryhowaird  1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
3 
9 
10 


11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


UNCUSSIRED 


C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 


WITNESS 

Duncan  Osborne 
by  Mr.  Fryman 


EXAMINATION 


UNCLASSIFIED 


OcDr^oTCDc      Tk 


619 


37    01    01 
jdryhoward    1 
2 


UNCUSSIFIED 


3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 

13  I 

1 

14  i 
15 

16  I 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-M-G-S 
Whereupon, 

DUNCAN  OSBORNE 
was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 
was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0     Mr.  Osborne,  would  you  state  your  full  name  for 
the  record? 

A     Duncan  Elliott  Osborne. 
Q     And  what  is  your  position? 

A     I'm  an  attorney.   I'm  a  lawyer  with  the  law  firm 
of  Graves,  Dougherty,  Hearon  &  Moody,  in  Austin. 


Q 

A 

Q 

A 
trusts. 

0 

A 
1976. 


undei  provisions  oi  LO.  123iu 
^b)r  O.  Sirfjo,  National  Security  Councl 


And  are  you  a  partner  in  that  firm? 

I'm  a  partner  in  that  firm. 

And  what  is  your  special  area? 

I  specialize  in  the  area  of  wills,  estates  and 

And  how  long  have  you  been  a  partner  in  the  firm? 
I've  been  a  partner  in  the  firm  since  January  of 

For  the  record,  Mr.  Osborne,  prior  to  the 


mm&m.. .. 


620 


UNCLASSIFIED 


37  01  01 

garyhoward  1 

2 

3 

4 

5  I 

6  • 

7  I 
Q  i 

'  \ 

10  I 

11  1 

1 

12  I 

j 

13  ' 

14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


commencement  of  this  deposition,  you  were  given  a  copy  of  a 
subpoena  from  the  House  Select  Committee,  as  well  as  a  copy 
of  a  subpoena  from  the  Senate  Select  Committee. 
Is  that  correct? 

A     That  is  correct. 

Q     And  you've  also  been  provided  with  copies  of  the 
rules  of  the  House  committee  and  the  resolution 
establishing  the  House  committee,  and  comparable  documents 
for  the  Senate  committee. 
Is  that  correct? 

A     That  is  correct. 

Q     Now,  Mr.  Osborne,  you  were  present  during  the 
deposition  of  Mrs.  Glanz  and  you  heard  her  testimony  about 
a  meeting  with  you  on  April  14,  1986,  during  which  time  she 
handed  you  a  list  which  contained  notations  regarding 
certain  types  of  arms. 

Do  you  recall  that  testimony? 

A     Yes,  I  do,  and  that's  correct. 

Q     And  you  did  receive  such  a  list  from  Mrs.  Glanz  on 
that  date? 

A     Yes,  I  did. 

0     What  do  you  recall  that  Mrs.  Glanz  told  you  at 


uMtussra.. .. 


621 


miASSW 


37  01  01 

^dryhoward  1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


that  time? 

A     Mrs.  Glanz  handed  me  a  list  and  said  Mrs.  Garwood 
brought  this  back  from  Washington,  and  she  wants  to  make  a 
contribution  to  help  meet  the  needs  of  the  Contras,  or 
words  to  that  effect. 

Q     Did  you  look  at  the  list? 

A     Yes,  r  did. 

Q     VJhat  do  you  recall  appeared  on  it? 

A     In  pencil,  there  was  a  list  of  armaments.   I 
cannot  recall  specifically  what  the  armaments  were,  but 
they  were  clearly  weapons  of  war,  things  like  anti-aircraft 
missiles,  cartridge  belts,  pistols,  hand  grenades.   And, 
again,  I'm  not  sure  any  of  those  things  specifically  were 
on  the  list,  but  they  were  certainly  things  of  that  nature. 

0     Were  there  dollar  amounts  on  the  list? 

A     I'm  not  sure,  but  I  think  so. 

0     How  large  apiece  of  paper  was  the  list? 

A     The  list  was  about  the  size  of  a  piece  of  small 
notepad  paper,  maybe  four  or  five  inches  long  and  three  or 
four  inches  wide. 

0     v/as  it  on  white  paer? 


Yes,  it  was. 


UNtLASSiflEi) 


622 


UNCUSsm 


37  01  01 
yaryhoward  1       Q     Was  there  any  sort  of  letterhead  on  the  list: 

2  A      I  don't  think  so. 

3  I      0     Now  what  did  you  do  with  the  list  after  Mrs.  Glanz 

4  I   gave  it  to  you? 

5  A      I  put  it  down  on  my  desk. 

6  Q     Were  there  other  materials  on  your  desk? 

7  A      Yes,  there  were. 

8  i      Q     What  types  of  materials? 

9  i      A     There  were  other  files  and  file  folders  and  other 

10  I   pieces  of  paper,  miscellaneous  notes,  correspondence,  legal 

11  '   pads. 

12  '      0     Now,  after  Mrs.  Glanz  handed  you  the  list,  did  you 

13  '   discuss  Mrs.  Garwood's  affairs  with  her  for  a  period  of 

14  j   time? 

15  I     A     Yes,  I  did. 

16  I  •    Q     And  where  was  the  list  when  Mrs.  Glanz  left  your 

17  office? 

18  A     My  recollection  is  that  I  returned  the  list  to 

19  Mrs.  Glanz. 

20  Q     At  that  initial  meeting  with  her? 

21  A      At  that  initial  meeting  with  her,  yes,  sir. 

22  Q      Do  you  recall  saying  anything  to  her  when  you  gave 


UNCliS^Eim 


623 


UNCUSSIFIED 


37  01  01 

ydryhoward  1 

2 

3 

4 

5  I 

6  ! 

I 

7  i 
i 

8  I 

9  j 
I 

10  I 

"  I 
12  I 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


8 


her  the  list? 

A     I  can't  recall  with  any  accuracy  or  specificity 
what  I  said,  but  my  intention  was  to  get  the  list  back  to 
Mrs.  Garwood. 

0     Now,  did  you  have  any  other  discussion  about  the 
list  with  Mrs.  Glanz  in  April  or  May  of  1986? 

A     So,  I  did  not. 

0     Did  you  have  any  discussion  concerning  the  list 
with  Mrs.  Garwood  in  April  or  May  of  1986? 

A     None  whatsoever. 

0     Did  you  have  any  discussion  of  the  list  with 
anyone  else  in  April  or  May  of  1986? 

A     No,  I  don't  believe  I  did. 

0     Before,  according  to  your  recollection,  you 
returned  the  list  to  Mrs.  Glanz,  did  you  make  a  copy  of  the 
list? 

A     No,  I  did  not. 

0     Did  you  have  anyone  else  make  a  copy? 

A     No,  1  did  not. 

Q     Have  you  seen  the  list  since  April  14,  1986? 

A     No,  I  have  not. 

Q     Has  anyone  since  April  14,  1986  indicated  to  you 

U(tCliSSiE&. ,. 


624 


UNCLASSIFIED 


37  01  01 
.jdryhoward  1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 

7  1 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


in  any  way  the  location  of  the  list? 

A     No,  they  have  not.   No  one  has. 

0     Now  you  were  aware  of  Mrs.  Glanz's  testimony  that 
she  left  the  list  with  you  during  your  meeting  on  April 
14th. 

A     That  is  correct.  I'm  aware  of  that  testimony. 

Q     And  that  the  list  was  never  returned  to  her. 

A     That's  what  she  said,  that's  correct. 

0     You're  aware  of  that  testimony? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Now,  have  you  caused  any  search  to  be  made  of  your 
office  for  this  list? 

A     Yes,  I  have. 

0     Would  you  describe  the  nature  of  the  search? 

A     I  keep  fairly  detailed  records  of  the  time  that  I 
expend  for  my  clients.  I  went  back  and  reviewed  my 
timesheets  to  see  what  files  I  was  working  on  in  April  of 
1986,  and  referred  to  files  approximately  a  week  prior  to 
April  14th,  1986,  and  the  week  after  April  14th,  1986.  I 
made  a  list  of  all  of  those  files.   And  then  either  I  or, 
in  some  cases,  other  attorneys  in  my  office  who  have 
primary  responsibility  for  those  files,  searched  each  file 


FRS  fNr 


625 


37  01  01 

ydryhoward  1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


UNCLASSIFIED 


10 


on  a  piece-of-paper  by  piece-of-paper  basis,  looking  Eor 
the  list. 

0     And  what  was  the  result  of  the  search? 

A     That  the  list  was  not  located. 

0     Do  you  have  any  reason  to  believe  that  the  list 
has  been  destroyed? 

A     No.   I  can  only  say  that  both  Mrs.  Glanz  and 
myself  reacted  negatively  to  the  list.   But  I  did  not 
destroy  it  and  I  gave  no  instruction  that  it  should  be 
destroyed. 

Q  VJell,  do  you  have  any  reason  to  believe  that  it 

was  destroyed? 

A     No. 

0     Mr.  Osborne,  it  is  the  House  committee's  position 

that  the  subpoena  served  on  you  imposes  a  continuing 

P 

obligation  with  resect  to  this  list.   In  the  event  that 
A 

the  list  is  discovered,  it  is  our  position  that  you  are 
obligated  to  make  it  available  to  the  staff  of  the  House 
committee.   And  I  believe  that  would  apply  to  the  Senate 
committee  as  well. 

MR.  KAPLAN:  Yes,  that's  correct. 

BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 


wsmm.. 


626 


37  01  01 
ydryhoward  1 


UNCLASSIFIED 


11 


2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 

12  ' 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


0     Do  you  understand  that? 
A     Yes,  I  understand  that. 

MR.  FRYMAN:  All  right.   I  have  no  further 
questions.   My  colleagues,  Mr.  Kaplan  and  Mr.  Buck,  can  now 
ask  further  questions. 

MR.  KAPLAN:   I  have  no  further  questions.  I 
appreciate  your  cooperation  in  appearing  in  sworn  testimony 
before  the  committees  today. 

THE  WITNESS:  Thank  you. 

MR.  BUCK:  I  also  have  no  further  questions. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Thank  you,  Mr.  Osborne. 

(Signature  not  waived.) 

(Whereupon,  at  6:00  p.m.,  the  taking  of  the 
deposition  was  concluded.) 


Duncan  E.  Osborne 


IINCDISSIFIEO 


627 


UNCUSSIFIED 


12 


I, 


CERTIFICATE  OF  NOTARY  PUBLIC  &  REPORTER 

,  the  officer  before 


Garv  S .  Howard 


whom  the  foregoing  deposition  was  taken,  do  hereby 
certify  that  the  witness  whose  testimony  appears  in  the 
foregoing  deposition  was  duly  sworn  by  me;  that  the 
testimony  of  said  witness  was  taken  in  shorthand  and 
thereafter  reduced  to  typewriting  by  me  or  under  my 
direction;  that  said  deposition  is  a    true  record  of  the 
testimony  given  by  said  witness;  that  I  am  neither  counsel 
for,  related  to,  nor  employed  by  any  of  the  parties  to 
the  action  in  which  this  deposition  was  taken;  and,  further, 
that  I  am  not  a  relative  or  employee  of  any  attorney  or 
counsel  employed  by  the  parties  hereto,  nor  financially 
or  otherwise  interested  in  the  outcome  of  the  action. 


Notary  P'uBlic  in  and  for  the 
District  of  Columbia 


My  Commission  Expires   November  14,  1990. 


UNCUSSIFIED 


628 


4:15 


3TEIN 
QUINTERO 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


DNBCASSIFHBlr 
UNCLASSIFIED 


DEPOSITION  OF  ROBERT  OWEN 


Monday,  April  20,  1987 


House  of  Representatives 

Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms 

Transactions  with  Iran, 
Washington,  D.C. 


The  select  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at 
4:15  p.m.,  in  Room  H-128,  The  Capitol,  W.  Neil  Eggleston 
(deputy  chief  counsel  for  the  committee)  presiding. 
Also  present:   Jack  Taylor,  Investigator,  Select  Committee 
to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  with  Iran;  Richard  J.  Leon, 
Deputy  Counsel,  Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms 
with  Iran;  Terry  Smiljanich,  Associate  Counsel,  United 
States  Senate,  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance 
to  Iran;  Thomas  Hylden,  and  Leonard  C.  Greenebaum,  Law  Firm 
of  Sachs,  Greenebaum  6  Taylor,  Counsel  for  Witness. 


^^mtions  of  EO.  m^s^ 


UNCLASSIFIED    HOZS 


629 


10 

11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 


UffiStft^flEi:'!' 


Whereupon,  ROBERT  OWEN,  after  having  been  first 
duly  sworn,  was  called  as  a  witness  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION 

BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Mr.  Owen,  I  am  Neil  Eggleston,  Deputy  Chief 
Counsel  of  the  House  Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert 
Arms  Transactions  with  Iran.   The  purpose  of  this  committee 

as  set  forth  in  H.R.  12,  is  to  investigate  various  activities 

a 

including  both  the  Iran  initiative  and  the  activities  of 

various  individuals  in  connection  with  the  activities  in 
Central  America,  particularly  the  Contras  in  Nicaragua 

You  are  present  here  today  pursuant  to  a  subpoena 
which  has  been  issued  by  this  committee  and  that  subpoena 
compelled  you  to  be  here  today 

Let  me  ask  you  two  questions:   First,  pursuant  to 
that  subpoena  and  pursuant  to  the  compulsion  order,  let  me 
ask  you  first,  Mr.  Owen,  do  you  know  a  man  by  the  naune  of 
Oliver  North? 
"•9         A    I  refuse  to  answer  that  on  the  grounds  that  it 

20  might  incriminate  me 

21  Q    Mr.  Owen,  you  have  also  been  provided  with  duplicat s 

22  subpoenas,  one  directed  to  yourself,  one  directed  to  the 

23  Institute  for  Democracy,  Education  and  Assistance,  and  one 

24  directed  to  the  Council  for  Democracy,  Education  and 

25  Assistance.   Let_nie.ask  vounow  prior  to  the  time  that  you 


IM^ili 


630 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


UNm^ffiffT 


have  been  granted  immunity,  whether  you  have  any  documents 
to  provide  this  committee  pursuant  to  those  three  subpoenas? 

A    Again,  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  that  it 
might  incriminate  me. 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  let  me  advise  you  that  a  U.S.  District 
Court  judge  for  the  District  of  Columbia  has  issued  an  order, 
and  I  am  going  to  read  that  order  to  you,  and  read  that  order 
into  the  record.   I  might  also  add  that  I  have  produced 
and  provided  a  copy  of  this  order  to  your  counsel. 
MR.  GREENEBAUM:   We  have  the  order. 
BY   MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    Nevertheless,  just  so  the  record  is  clear,  I  will 
read  it  into  the  record. 

It  is  captioned  in  the  United  States  District 
Court  for  the  District  of  Columbia,  and  the  caption  "House 
Select  Coramittee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions 
with  Iran,  U.S.  House  of  Representatives,  Washington,  D.C., 
20515,  Applicant,  Misc.  No.  87-0104."  There  is  a  stamp 
on  it  indicating  it  was  mailed  March  30,  1987. 

"On  consideration  of  the  application  by  the  House 
Select  Coramittee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions 
with  Iran  and  the  memorandum  of  points  and  authorities,  and 

23  exhibits,  in  support  thereof,  the  Court  finds  that  the  pro- 

24  cedural  requisites  set  forth  in  18   U.S.C  §  6005  for  an 

25  order  of  the  Court  have  beeij^s^tisf i^^  Accordingly,  it  is 


631 


«iij^ 


4 
ORDERED  that  Robert  Owen  may  not  refuse  to  provide  any 


evidence  in  proceedings  before  the  House  Select  Committee 
to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran  on  the 
basis  of  his  privilege  against  self-incrimination,  and  it  is 
FURTHER  ORDERED  that  no  evidence  obtained  under  this  Order 
(or  any  information  directly  or  indirectly  derived  from 
such  evidence)  may  be  used  against  Robert  Owen  in  any 
criminal  case,  except  a  prosecution  for  perjury,  giving  a 

Q 

false  statement,  or  otherwise  failing  to  comply  with  this 

Order. " 

"It  is  FURTHF.R  ORDERED   that  this  order  shall 

become  effective  on  April  19,  1987,  signed  by:  Aubrey  E. 

Robinson,  Jr.,  dated:  March  30,  1987." 

I  also  note  for  the  record  that  today  is  April 

20tK,  so  the  order  is  effective.   The  document  I  just 

read  to  you  has  the  certification  and  the  seal  of  the  U.S 

District  Court  for  the  District  of  Columbia  on  it. 
18  This  order,  by  its  terms,  removes  your  privilege 

1^     against  self-incrimination.   And  in  light  of  this  order 

20  r  direct  you  to  respond  to  the  questions  that  have  been 

21  posed  to  you,  and  other  questions  that  will  be  posed  to  you 

22  And  I  would  also  ask  the  court  reporter  to  direct  you  to 

23  respond  to  these  questions. 

24  (Reporter  directs  witness  to  respond  to  questions  of  counsel. 


25 


UNCLASSIFIED 


632 


10 

11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 


alJgfuPffiwr 


BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Mr.  Owen,  let  me  first  ask  you  various  questions 
with  regard  to  the  subpoenas  which  have  been  served  on  you. 

First  is  a  subpoena  issued  to  Robert  Owen,  issued 
by  the  House  Select  Committee,  which  is  dated,  I  think  the 
24th  of  February,  1987,  sinb^d  by  Lee  Hamilton,  the  Chairman 
of  the  Committee. 

Mr.  Owen,  do  you  have  any  documents,  now  that  you 


have  been  granted  immunity  ancyou  are  compelled  to  respond 


to  the  questions  that  the  committee  poses  to  you,  let  me 
ask  you  whether  you  have  any  documents  which  are  responsive 
to  the  subpoena? 

MR.  GREENEBAUM:   Let  me  respond  for  the 
record. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Certainly. 
MR.  GREENEBAUM:   In  anticipation  of  the 
'      immunity  order  and  the  direction  to  respond,  Mr.  Owen  has 
'"     brought  certain  documents  to  facilitate  as  well  as  supple- 
''     ment  his  testimony,  which  we  would  not  have  produced  but 

20  for  the  immunity  order.   I  want  that  clear  for  the  record. 

21  BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

22  Q    I  take  it  then,  Mr.  Owen,  that  you  do  have 

23  documents  to  produce  in  response  to  that  part  of  the 

24  subpoena? 

25  A    Yes,  I, 


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Q    Could  you  provide  those  to  us  so  that  the  court 
reporter  may  mark  those  documents? 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Court  Reporter,  could  you 
mark  this  as  RO-1,  of  today's  date,  and  if  you  would  just 
mark  the  box  for  this  purpose,  at  a  later  time  we  will  go 
through  the  documents  in  a  more  comprehensive  fashion. 

(The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit 
RO-1  for  identification:) 

COMMITTEE  INSERT 


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^|gf^sS8S' 


BY  MR,  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Mr.  Owen,  you  have  now  provided  various  documents 
in  response  to  the  subpoena  issued  to  you  personally.   Let 
me  ask  you,  do  you  also  have  documents  which  you  are  going  to 
produce  to  the  committee  in  response  to  the  subpoena  com- 
pelling you  to  produce  documents  which  have  been  issued  to 
the  Institute  for  Democracy,  Education  and  Assistance? 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   I  understand,  Mr.  Greenebaum,  the 
comments  that  you  made  about  the  Owen  subpoena  issued 
to  Mr.  Owen  on  behalf  of  the  IDEA;  is  that  correct? 

MR.  GREENEBAUM:   That  is  correct. 

THE  WITNESS:   I  do  have  those  documents. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Please  mark  this  RO-2. 
(The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  RO-2 
for  identification:) 

COMMITTEE  INSERT 


UNCLASSIFIED 


635 


^^0S^ 


8 


BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  there  was  a  third  subpoena  which  was 
served  on  you  which  is  also  dated  24  February.   It  is 
directed  to  the  Council  for  Democracy,  Education  and 
Assistance.   Do  you  have  any  documents  to  produce  pursuant 
to  that  subpoena? 

A    No,  I  don't.   I  am  no  longer  associated  with  that 
association. 

Q    And  you  have  no  documents  of  that  organization 
under  your  custody  or  control? 

A    No ,  I  don '  t . 

Q    Previous  to  the  time  that  I  read  to  you  the 
immunity  order  and  directed  you  to  respond  and  that 
the  Court  Reporter  directed  you  to  respond,  I  asked  a 
question  about  whether  or  not  you  knew  Oliver  L.  North. 
Now  that  you  have  been  granted  immunity  or  that  the  immunity 
order  has  been  conferred  on  you,  let  me  ask  you  again,  do 
you  know  a  man  by  the  name  of  Oliver  L.  North? 

A    Yes. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   At  this  time,  unless  there  is  an 
objection,  I  will  ask  that  this  deposition  be  adjourned. 

MR.  GREENEBAUM:   That  is  satisfactory. 
(Whereupon,  at  4:25  p.m.,  the  deposition  was  adjourned.) 


mmms^ 


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^■:)\Ts-54^^ 


COPY  Na__l— — OF — 6. jCOPIES 


I. 


DEPOSITION  OF  ROBERT  W.  OWEN 


Monday,  May  4,  1987 


Yx^-2. 


U.S.  House  of  Representatives, 

Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert 

Arms  Transactions  with  Iran, 
Washington,-  D.C. 


Partially  Declassified/Released  on. 

under  provisions  o(  E.O,  12356 
by  K  Johnson.  National  Security  Council 


|(Jft-N86 


The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at  9:00  a.m.,  in 
Room  H-128,  the  Capitol,  with  W.  Neil  Eggleston  (Deputy  Chief 
of  House  Select  Committee)  presiding. 

Present:   W.  Neil  Eggleston,  Deputy  Chief  Counsel; 
Richard  L.  Leon,  Deputy  Chief  Minority  Counsel,  on  behalf  of 
the  House  Select  Committee  on  Covert  Arras  Transactions  with 
Iran;  Dee  Benson,  Personal  Representative  to  Senator  Orrin 
Hatch;  Terry  Smiljanich,  Associate  Counsel,  United  States 
Senate  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran 
and  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition;  and  Richard  H.  Giza,  Subcommittee 
on  Evaluation,  Permanent  Select  Committee  on  Intelligence. 

Also  present:   Leonard  C.  Greenebaum,  Sachs,  Greenebaum  & 


llNCUaSiFJED 


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'    Tayler;  and  Thomas  Hylden,  Attorney  At  Law,  Sachs,  Greenebaum 


&  Tayler,  on  behalf  of  the  deponent. 


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llNffilWfB 


MR.  fiGGLESTON:  Mr.  Owen,  for  the  record,  my  name  is 
Neil  Eggleton,  Deputy  Chief  Counsel  to  the  House  Select 
Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran. 

This  deposition  is  being  conducted  both  by  the  House 
Committee  and  the  Senate  Committee,  and  it  is  in  furtherance  ol 
resolutions  which  establish  both  of  ♦:hose  committees  and  pro- 
vided for  depositions  to  conduct  those  investigations. 

Let  me  say  at  the  outset  thiat  this  deposition  is 
a  continuation  of  a  deposition  which  began  some  days  ago,  at 
which  time  you  were  formally  granted  and  presented  with  an 
immunity  order  which  immunized  statements  and  any  evidence 
derived  from  any  statements  you  may  have  made. 

This  deposition  is  a  continuation  of  that  deposition, 
and  so  it  is  similarly  subject  to  those  same  provisions. 

I  might  also  say  for  the  record  that  moments  ago  you 
were  sworn  in  by  a  notary  public. 

Let  me  also  say  that  this  deposition  is  being 
conducted  in  order  to  provide  some  of  the  information  or  put 
down  some  of  the  information  that  you  have  provided  to  us  in  a 
form  we  have  talked  at  some  length  now  about  various  aspects  ol 
your  involvement  from  1984  through  1986 . 

This  is  certainly  not  intended  to  be  comprehensive. 
I  am  going  to  ask  you  questions  about  various  areas.   I  know 
that  you  have  taken  lots  of  trips  that  you  are  not  going  to  be  J 
testifying  to  today  because  I  am  not  going  to  ask  you  about 
them. 


UNCLASSiFIED 


639 


25 


mtmB 


'  I  am  going  to  ask  you  just  some  things  about  various 

2  conversations,  and  I  know  that  you  have  had  a  number  of 

^  conversations  with  various  people  that  I  am  not  going  to  ask 

*  you  about,  so  I  understand  that  during  the  course  of  this,  you 

5  are  simply  responding  to  my  questions.   You  are  not  saying 

®  everything  you  know  about  your  involvement  in  this  activity 

7  from  1984  to  1986. 

8  MR.  GREENEBAUM:   With  your  permission,  I  would  like 

9  to  elaborate  for  a  moment.   I  think  the  record  should  reflect 
'0  the  immunity  order  and  the  direction  to  testify  came  after  he 
"  asserted  his  constitutional  rights  not  to  testify,  and  while 
^2  I  appreciate  that  you  don't  plan  to  ask  him  aUDOut  all  the 

13  things  he  knows  about,  I  think  the  record  should  also  reflect 

14  that  he  has  been  interviewed  and  that  you  have  already  asked 

15  him  about  those.   It  is  not  just  a  matter  of  his  not  testifying 

16  edjout  things  you  know  he  knows,  but  things  that  he  has  discusse ; 

17  with  you,  and  that  he  has  been  forthcoming  and  complete  in  his 

18  answers. 

19  I  assume  that  the  discussions  are  protected  by  the 

20  immunity  order  as  well  as  the  testimony  based  on  — 

21  MR.  EGGLESTON:   That  is  correct. 

22  i  MR.  GREENEBAUM:   I  guess  that  should  include  the 

23  documents. 

24  MR.  EGGLESTON:   In  addition,  you  provided  Mr.  Owen 
various  documents  subDoenaed  Diiraiiant,a'(i&BKP^  *"*^  organizations 


D 


640 


UKSdfiKEO 


'  with  which  you  were  associated.   Those  documents  were  also 

2  provided  only  after  the  immunity  order  was  granted  on  you,  and 

^  indeed  some  of  the  questioning  today  will  be  based  on  documents 

*  that  you  provided  to  us,  after  the  immunity  order  was  served 

5  upon  you. 

^  WHEREUPON, 

7  RODERT  W.  OWEN 

8  was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  been  duly  sworn,  was 

9  further  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

10  EXAMINATION  BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

11  Q    Mr.  Owen,  could  you  just  tell  me  very  briefly  about 

12  your  educational  background  and  your  work  backgroud  up  until 

13  the  time  you  began  with  Gray  &  Company? 

14  A    I  graduated  from  high  school  from  Moses  Brown  School 

15  in  Providence,  Rhode  Island,  in  1971,  went  to  Philipps  Academy 

16  in  Andover  for  the  next  few  years,  and  then  I  graduated  and 

17  attended  Stanford  University  and  subsequently  graduated  in 

18  1978. 

19  From  1976  —  from  1977,  I  worked  in  St.  Paul  School 

20  in  Concord,  New  Hampshire,  and  from  1977  to  1980,  I  worked  at 

21  the  Brentwood  School  in  Los  Angeles,  California. 

22  In  the  summer  of  1980,  I  made  a  decision  to  go  to 

23  Thailand  to  work  with  the  U.R.  Refugee  Program,  and  I  did  that 

24  in  the  fall  of  1980.   I  returned  to  the  United  States  when  I 

25  heard  my  father  was  terminally  ill  with  cancer  in  late  1980. 


iiNriAi<uEiFn 


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uNcssm 


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1» 
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25 


I  came  to  Washington  seeking  employment  in  1981, 
and  started  in  September  with  the  Senate  Republican  Conference. 
I  worked  there  until  March  of  1982,  where  I  then  went  to 
work  for  Senator  Dan  Quayle  as  Assistant  Press  Secretary  and 
then  moved  into  his  slot  as  Legislative  Assistant  for  Foreign 
Affairs,  and  I  did  that,  working  with  him  until  late  198  3, 
where  I  then  wer.t  to  work  for  Gray  &  Company  in  their  Inter- 
national Division,  and  I  worked  from  there  until  late  1984  and 
from  then  started  my  involvement  with  this  effort. 

Q    Curing  the  period  of  time  that  you  were  at  Gray  & 
Company,  did  you  work  on  a  proposal  relating  to  the  contras? 

A    Yes,  in  the  spring  of  1984,  I  believe  it  was  in 
April,  either  one  of  our  vice  presidents  was  approached  by 
Bosco  Motainorris  or  they  just  met  and  perhaps  the  vice  presi- 
dent asked  that  there  might  be  something  we  could  do  for  them. 
Neal  Livingston,  who  was  then  senior  Vice  President 
at  Gray  t   Company  asked  me  to  follow  up  on  it.   I  had  several 
meetings  with  Bosco  Motamorris,  a  representative.   FDN  and  a 
fellow  by  the  name  of  Alvero  Rizzo. 

But  after  my  first  meeting,  I  went  to  talk  with 
Lieutenant  Oliver  North  of  the  NSC  to  discuss  this  with  him. 
Q    IS  this  the  first  time  you  met  with  Colonel  North? 
A    No.   I  met  the  colonel,  I  believe,  in  July  198  3 
when  I  was  with  Senator  Quayle,  an  Indiana  constituent  named 
John  Holt  had  come  to  our  office  along  with  three  other  people 


11 


uu^,jU>Aiiarn 


rro/?  r\  oo  oo 


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wsmm 


He  had  just  come  in  from  Costa  Rica  and  had  a 
Nicaraguan  with  him  who  had  just  come  in  off  of  fighting  in 
Nicaragua.   I  felt  that  it  was  important  that  they  get  to  see 
as  many  people  as  possible  in  the  United  States  Government  to 
talk  about  what  was  going  on  down  there,  and  one  of  the  meet- 
ings I  had  was  with  Lieutenant  Oliver  North. 

Q    xou  have  indicated  while  you  were  with  Gray  &  Company 
there  was  an  approach  made  about  whether  or  not  Gray  & 
Company  could  do  some  work  for  the  contras  and  I  take  it  that 
resulted  in  some  sort  of  a  report? 

A    After  I  went  to  see  Colonel  North,  I  asked  him 
where  this  was  coming  from,  and  he  said  that  certain  people  had 
suggested  to  the  FDN  that  they  find  representation  in 
Washington,  and  it  was  my  understanding  he  said  that  they  had 
given  him  a  list  of  names  of  companies. 

We  had  several  meetings,  and  out  of  that,  came  a 
proposal  that  Neal  Livingston,  senior  vice  president,  and  i 
worked  on  where  we  suggested  that  possibly  proprietary  compan- 
ies be  set  up. 

This  would  be  outside  of  Gray  &  Company's  involve- 
ment.  This  would  be  in  a  private  effort,  because  at  that  time 
we  knew  the  funding  was  running  low,  and  they  needed  some  way 
to  find  a  bridge  gap  until  congressional  money  would  be 
removed. 

Q    And  what  did  you  do  with  the  document  that  you  and 
Mr.  Livingston  — 


iiNHi  hmm 


643 


msmm 


1  MR.  GREENEBAUMj   I  am  not  sure  he  finished  his 

2  answer. 

3  THE  WITNESS:  I  am  fine.  I  provided  to  Lieutenant 
*  Colonel  Oliver  North  in  there  there  were  several  options.  One 
5  was  going  with  the  proprietary  route  and  the  other  was  setting 
®  up  some  non-profit  organizations  which  could  then  go  out  and 

7  actively  fund  raise  for  humanitarian  goods. 

8  The  proprietaries  would  be  used  to  purchase-  things 

9  that  may  not  be  able  to  be  purchased  inside  the  United  States. 

10  BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

11  Q    By  things,  what  are  you  referring  to? 

12  A    Arms  and  other  military  needs  that  they  may  have. 

13  Q    Did  you  discuss  the  memorandum  with  Colonel  North? 

14  A    Yes,  I  did. 

15  Q    Do  you  remember  approximately  the  time  frame  when 

16  you  provided  the  memorandum  to  Colonel  North? 

17  A    That  probably  was  in  May  of  1984. 

18  Q    Did  you  discuss  the  memorandum  with  Colonel  North? 

19  A    Yes,  I  did. 

20  Q    And  what  was  the  discussion? 
A    Out  of  that,  a  decision  was  made  that  I  would  go 

down     do  a  survey^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|looking 
at  what  their  needs  would  be. 


21 
22 

23 

24  At  that  time,  I  also  suggested  I  take  a 

25  representative  from  a  congressional  office  with  me,  because  I 

mp\  nQQiciirn 


jj 


644 


wmsm 


'  thought  it  would  be  good  that  they  have  a  clear  idea  of  what 

2  was  going  to  be  needed,  in  case  or  when  the  President  submitte 

^  another  request  for  funding  for  them. 

*         '    We  flew  from  Washington  to  Costa  Rica  in  May  of 

^  1986,  and  I  subsequently  stayed  down  there  until  June  5  of 

6  1984.   This  was  1984,  not  1986. 

7  Q    And  while  down  there,  did  you  have  occasion  to  speak 

8  with  people  associated  with  the  FDN? 

9  A    Yes,  I  did. 

10 '       Q    Did  you  discuss  with  them  their  funding  needs? 

11  A    Yes,  I  did.   I  was  told  that  they  would  need  a 

12  minimum  of  $1  million  a  month  to  continue,  and  if  they  were  to 

13  have  the  same  military  resources  such  as  arms  and  other  things 

14  they  would  probably  need  a  million  and  a  half  a  month  and  that 

15  would  potentially  help  them  grow  a  little  bit  as  well. 

16  Q    When  the  trip  was  over,  did  you  speak  to  Colonel 

17  North  about  the  trip  you  were  taking? 

18  A    Yes,  I  did. 

19  Xi  And  did  you  tell  him  about  the  military,  the 

20  financial  needs  that  the  FDN  had  relayed  to  you? 

21  A    Yes.   I  did  at  least  one,  it  not  two,  reports 

22  which  went  over  the  needs,  and  also  the  present  situation 

23  that  was  taking  place  at  the  time  the  Sandinistas  were  involve 

an  of  fensive  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^nd 

25  this  happened  at  the  same  time  that  the  attempted  assassinatio 


645 


URSHlEO 


10 


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of   Eden   Pastora  occurred. 

Q  And  did  you  discuss  with  Colonel  North  the 

requirement  of    $1.5  million,    if  the  contras  were   to  expand 
their   military   capability? 

A  Yes,    I   did. 

Q    You  indicated  that  you  were  down  in  Costa  Rica  at 
the  time  the  bombing  took  place.   What  do  you  know  about  the 
bombing? 

A    I  was  staying  at  John  Hull's  apartment  in  San  Jose, 
and  that  evening  I  had  a  brief  meeting  with  theR^Hat  the  tim< 
It  was  more  of  a  get-togethei 
^^^^^^^^I^^^^^^^H  he  a 

other. 

We  discussed  the  situation  and  also  the  needs  of 
the  South.   We  were  woken  up  that  evening  by  several  Nicarag- 
uans  who  came  to  the  house  and  told  John  that  a  bombing  had 
taken  place,  that  Pastora  was  wounded.   They  didn't  know  when 
whether  he  was  killed  or  not. 

They  subsequently  asked  John  to  go  out  and  help 
bring  in  the  wounded.   1  believe  he  got  in  touch  with  some 
representatives  of  the  United  States  Embassy,  and  the  decision 
was  made  that  he  would  not  go  out  there. 

Previously  that  day,  we  talked  with  members  of  the 
then-Pastora  Air  Force,  a  quasi-Air  Force,  and  they  had  asked 
what  they  should  do  with  their  planes,  because  the  funding  was 


nMm  Aooirirn 


646 


mmmi 


11 


'    being  dropped. 

2 


We  didn't  necessarily  think  it  was  appropriate 
that  they  were  talking  with  us,  but  as  they  asked,  we  suggeste 
they  move  the  planes ^^^^^^^^^^^^^und  they  ended  up  doing 
that. 

Q    Do  you  recall  writing  a  letter  to  Colonel  North 
^    around  July  2,  1984? 

®        A    I  may  have.   I  wrote  a  number  of  them. 
'         Q    There  is  a  reference  in  a  letter  which  we  have  ob- 
tained from  Colonel  ^Jorth's  office.   It  says,  "As  for  the  toys 
we  talked  about,  I  will  be  having  a  meeting  this  week  to  learn 
what  clarifications  are  needed." 

Do  you  recall  what  that  was  a  reference  to? 
'^        A    It  would  have  been  talking  about  arms.   Toys  would 
'5    have  been  arms. 
'6        Q    And  later  in  that  document,  there  is  a  reference 

17  to  an  individual  that  you  were  meeting  with.   Do  you  recall 

18  who  that  individual  was? 

19  A    I  don't  recall  the  individual's  name,  but  he  had 

20  done  work  ir 

21  Q    By  done  work,  what  do  you  mean? 

22  A    I  believe  he  may  —  he  is  an  Anverican  who  may  have 

23  done  some  representation. 

24  Q    And  you  don't  recall  who  it  was? 

25  A    No,  not  right  offhand.   I  think  if  I  think  about  it 

imm  fiocicirn 


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1 

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wissmti 


12 


I  may  be  able  to  come  up  with  it.   It  was  suggested  that  I  get 
together  with  him  because  he  would  potentially  have  access  to 
putting  together  a  deal  for  the  procurement  of  articles  out  of 


letter; 


MR.  SMILJANICH:   Could  you  read  the  date  of  that 

THE  WITNESS:   July  2,  1984. 

MR.  SMILJANICH:   Who  is  it  addressed  to? 

THE  WITNESS:   "Dear  Ollie."   I  was  dumb  enough  to 


sign  it, 


BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    Signed  Rob;  is  that  correct? 

A    Signed  Rob,  yes. 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  did  you  attend  a  meeting  in  August  of  1984 
in  Dallas? 

A    Yes.   I  was  working  out  of  Dallas  as  a  volunteer 
for  the  Reagan  —  for  the  Republican  Convention,  and  Oliver 
North  flew  out  for  a  meeting  of  CNP,  which  is  the  Council  for 
National  Policies.   It  is  a  conservative  non-profit  organiza- 
tion. 

Also  in  attendance  at  that  meeting  were  Adolfo 
Colero  and  General  Jack  Singlaub.   I  met  General  Singlaub  for 
the  first  time  and  it  may  have  been  the  first  time  I  met  with 
Adolfo  Colero;  I  don't  remember. 

Q    Did  the  four  of  you  all  meet  at  the  same  time? 


lIMm  AOOinrn 


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uNeeeFiED 


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1  A    We  met  a  couple  different  times  over  that  period. 

2  I  think  it  was  maybe  two  days. 

3  Q    And  what  were  the  discussions  about  among  your 

4  people? 

5  A    The  discussions  of  fundraising  for  the  FDN,  the  need 

6  to  find  assistance  for  them  so  they  can  get  through  this  bridg 

7  period  until  the  United  States  picked  up  assistance  again. 

8  Q    Was  there  discussion  about  the  need  to  provide 

9  military  equipment  to  the  contras? 
JO        A    I  believe  so. 

J  J        Q    And  that  was  a  discussion  among  yourself,  Colonel 

12  North,  Mr.  Calero,  and  General  Singlaub? 

j3        A    Yes,  I  believe  so. 

j4        Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  late  October  of  198  4 

J5  During  that  time  period,  approximately  October  26  to  the  31st 

j5  of  1984  ,  did  you  take  a  trip 


A    May  I  clarify  one  thing?   It  wasn't  until  late 
August  or  in  August  some  time  that  we  did  submit  a  proposal 
from  Gray  &  Company  to  the  FDN.   Gray  &  Company  made  a  dec i sic 
that  it  did  not  want  to  represent  the  FDN,  and  Adolfo  Calero 
felt  it  was  probably  too  expensive  and  prohibitive  to  do  that 
anyway,  so  he  and  I  had  several  discussions  during  this  period 

From  October    to  October     I  did  go^^^^^^^^^^^^H 
and  while  there  I  did  meet  with  Adolfo  Calero. 

Q    Did  you  have  conversations  with  Calero  about  you 


649 


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mfMB 


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'    working  for  him? 

2  A    Yes,  at  that  time  he  and  I  had  talked  about 

3  possibilities,  and  I  made  an  offer  that  I  would  be  willing  to 
*    leave  Gray  &  Company  and  work  full  time  in  an  effort  to  help 
^    them  in  any  way  that  I  could. 

6  Q    Was  there  any  discussion  with  him  about  how  much  he 

7  would  pay  you  for  that? 

8  A    It  may  have  taken  place  there  or  just  when  we  got 

9  back  in  Washington,  but  a  decision  was  made  that  I  would  be 

10  paid  $2,500  a  month  and  most  of  my  expenses  for  whatever  trave 

11  that  I  incurred. 

12  Q    Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him  at  this  time 

13  about  what  it  was  that  you  would  do  for  him? 

14  A    It  was  very  loosely  defined  and  it  was  doing 

15  anything  that  I  could  to  help  them  in  the  cause,  whether  it 

16  be  from  a  public  relation*  effort  to  providing  information 

17  to  keeping  track  of  things  here  in  Washington. 
16        Q    Did  you  also  have  conversations  down  there  with 
t9   Mr.  Calero  and  John  Hull? 

A    Yei,  I  had  been  talking  to  Mr.  Calero  some  time 
about  John  Hull  and  his  ability  or  his  knowledge  of  the  effort 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1  and 
Mr.  Calero  to  Mr.  Hull  at  that  meeting. 

Q    And  were  there  any  financial  _arran^^|^|^discussed 
between  the  two  of  them? 


650 


15 


A    They  discussed  about  Mr.  Calero  providing  Mr.  Hull 
with  funds  to  again  be  a  bridge  gap  for  the  effort  in  the 
South.   These  funds  would  provide  food  and  humanitarian 
goods  for  the  contras  in  the  South. 

Q    And  how  much  money  was  Calero  going  to  give  to  Hull 
in  order  to  help  with  the  humanitarian  assistance  in  the  South 
A    $10,000  a  month. 
®        Q    And  do  you  know  how  long  those  payments  lasted? 
®        A    I  believe  they  lasted  into  September,  possibly 
October  1985. 

Q    And  at  that  time  is  when  — 
'2         A    The  NHAL  funding  came  in. 

'3         Q    The  United  States  Government  humanitarian  assistance 
'*    began? 

15  A    Yes. 

16  Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  mid-November  of  1984 
•7    At  that  time,  did  you  take  a  trip  to  Central  America? 

18  A    Yes,  I  was  still  working  for  Gray  &  Company,  but  I 

19  ;   took  personal  leave.   Colonel  North  had  invited  me  over  to  his 

20  office  and  we  had  several  discussions,  and  he  provided  me  with 

21  pictures  and  also  maps  which  showed  the  gun  emplacements  aroun 

22  the  Augusto  Sandino  Airport  in  Managua,  Nicaragua,  and  he  aske 

23  me  to  take  this  material  down^^^^^^^^^Lind  give  it  to  Adolf 

24  Calero. 

25  Q    Do  you  know  where  Colonel  North  obtained  the  maps? 

*\u(i\  >coicicn 


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A    I  believe  it  was  from  the  CIA,  but  I  am  not  positive 
on  that. 

Q    What  did  Colonel  North  tell  you  about  where  he 
obtained  them,  if  anything? 

A    I  believe  he  may  have  said  he  got  it  from  across  th( 
river. 

Q    Did  he  mention  any  particular  individual's  name? 

A    No. 

Q    Did  he  ever  tell  you  who  it  was  across  the  river  wh 
provided  them  to  you? 

A    No,  not  at  this  time. 

Q    By  across  the  river,  did  you  understand  Langley, 
which  is  the  headquarters  for  the  CIA? 

A    I  Suspected  as  much. 

Q    Was  across  the  river  frequently  the  way  Colonel  Nor 
or  occasionally  the  way  Colonel  North  referred  to  the  CIA? 

A    It  was  either  across  the  river  or  up  the  river. 
It  varied. 

Q    And  what  was  the  purpose  of  taking  the  maps  down  to 
Calero? 

A    At  that  time,  the  information  had  come  in  that  the 
Soviets  had  provided  MI-24  helicopters  to  the  Sandinistas, 
and  they  were  being  put  together  at  the  Sandino  Airport  in 
Managua 


652 


1 

2 
3 

4 

^  ^^^^^^^  The  thought  was  that  the  FDN  could  undertake  a 

®  mission  with  their  push-and-pull  aircraft,  they  had  three  of 

^  them  at  the  time,  to  attack  the  Sandino  Airport  and  try  and 

®  destroy  some  of  the  MIG  24s,  excuse  me,  MI-24s,  before  they 

^  were  put  together  and  just  destroy  them  on  the  ground. 

'0  Q    Do  you  know  whether  such  a  mission  was  every 

"  attempted? 

'2  A    No,  a  decision  was  made  not  to  do  it.   It  would 

'3  have  probably  ended  up  in  a  suicide  mission. 

'4  Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  now  to  mid-February  9 

15  or  10  of  February  1985.   Did  you  take  additional  maps  down,  as 

16  best  you  recall,  take  additional  maps  down  to  Central  America 

17  at  that  time? 

18  A    Yes,  at  that  time  I  had  already  left  Gray  &  Company 

19  and  I  was  working  in  essence  full  time,  and  trying  to  help  the 

20  effort,  and  I  had  a  meeting  with  Colonel  North  and  he  asked  me 

21  to  take  a  trip  down  there  and  ferry  some  maps  and  other  things 

22  for  him. 

23  Q    And  did  you  obtain  maps  from  Colonel  North? 

24  A    Yes.   I  went  over  to  the  White  House  early  one  morn- 

25  ing,  and  to  the  Situation  Room,  and  he  showed  me  the  largest 

nmrn  AOPinrn 


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map  which  I  was  to  take  down,  but  it  was  stapled  or  already 
put  on,  I  guess  you  would  call  it  a  back-up  board  or  Styrofoam 
board. 

It  was  too  large  to  be  able  to  handle,  and  he  made 
a  comment,  well,  that  just  shows  the  incompetence  of  the  CIA. 

Q    Did  he  make  any  telephone  calls  to  anyoody? 

A    He  did.   He  said,  "Look,  why  don't  you  come  back 
this  afternoon  and  I  will  try  and  get  something.   I  will  call 
over  there  and  we  will  try  and  get  a  smaller  version." 

I  went  back,  I  believe  that  afternoon,  and  he  still 
did  not  come  through  with  the  new  version  that  they  wanted  me 
to  take,  and  picked  up  the  phone  again  and  called  over  the 
agency  and  asked  them  where  it  was. 

Q    Do  you  know  who  it  was  he  spoke  to  at  the  agency? 

A    I  believe  it  was| 

Q    Did  you  know^^^^^^^^BVposition  at  that  time? 

A    I  believe  I  knew  that  he  was  Director  of  the  Task 
Force  although  I  am  not  sure. 

Q    The  Central  American  Task  Force? 

A    Yes.   Actually,  at  that  time,  he  may  have  tried  to 
get^^^^^^^^^^^^^Lnd  he  might  not  have  been  available , 
he  may  have  talked  to  one  or  two  other  people  trying  to  get 
the  --  find  out  when  the  material  would  be  ready. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Could  I  have  this  marked  RO-3. 


UNCLASSIFIED 


654 


uiusiyeED 


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CO 


:::::^> 


I 

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(Whereupon,  RO  Exhibit  No.  3  was  marked 
for  identification.) 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Let  me  show  you  what  has  been  marked  RO-3,  which  is 
a  letter  that  begins,  "Dear  Friend." 

MR.  GREENEBAUM:   I  am  sorry.   It  says  "My  friend." 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    "My  friend,"  thank  you. 

Based  on  the  contents  of  this  letter,  do  you  have  an 
opinion  about  who  it  was  sent  to  or  who  it  was  addressed  to? 

A    I  believe  it  would  have  been  addressed  to  Adolfo 
Calero  and  the  contents  of  the  letter  shows  that  I  may  have 
taken  it  down  with  me  on  that  February  trip,  because  at  that 
time  on  the  map  were  located  various  Sandinista  positions  and 
also  Lieutenant  Colonel  North  was  talking  about  the  need  for 
the  FDN  to  move  its  location  from^^^^^^^H'here  its  command 
location  was  to  another  locatior 


Q    There  was  handwriting  on  the  draft  which  I  have  just 
shown  you  marked  RO-3.   Do  you  recognize  the  handwriting? 
A    It  looks  like  Colonel  North's. 


655 


uni!U£^& 


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Q    There  is  a  paragraph  at  the  very  bottom  of  the  page 
making  a  reference  to  $20  million  being  deposited  in  the 
usual  account. 

Did  you  know  at  the  time  that  money  was  going  to  be 
deposited,  money  in  that  amount  was  going  to  be  deposited  into 
an  acoount? 

A    No,  but  I  believe  that  Colonel  North  told  me  to 
tell  Adolfo  that  funds  were  coming. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  tell  you  where  the  funds  were 
coming  from? 

A    No,  he  did  not. 

Q    Did  he  tell  you  that  the  funds  would  be  of  this 
magnitude? 

A    No,  he  didn't. 

Q    Are  you  learning  this  now  for  the  first  time? 

A    I  had  seen  that  document  before. 


656 


UNSiKSSntD 


21 


'        Q    On  page  2,  the  last  paragraph,  there  is  a  reference 

2  to  "my  British  friend  and  his  service  for  special  operations." 

*  'do  you  know  to  whom  he  is  referring  when  he  refers 

*  to  the  British  friend? 

5  A    No,  I  don't  know  the  individuals  by  name,  although 

6  on  one  occasion  in  one  of  my  meetings  with  Colonel  North  he 

7  discussed  how  he  did  have  sorre  —  I  should  say  made  reference 

8  to  the  fact  that  he  had  some  British  friends  who  were  doing 

9  some  special  operations  for  him. 

!0        Q    Did  he  tell  you  what  the  special  operations  were? 

11  A    At  that  time,  it  had  been  announced  in  the  newspaper 

12  that  there  had  been  several  explosions  in  downtown  Managua  and 

13  the  Sandinistas  were  trying  to  say  it  was  near  a  hospital  and 

14  they  were  just  minor  explosions,  but  then  he  mentioned  that 

15  some  of  his  friends  had  caused  them,  I  believe  it  was  an  ammu- 

16  nition  dump  to  be  blown  up. 

17  Q    And  he  indicated  to  you  that  his  British  friends  had 

18  done  that? 

19  A    Right. 

20  Q    Who  did  you  understand  the  British  friends  to  be? 

21  Were  they  official  British  military? 

22  A    I  had  no  idea.   I  didn't  pursue  it  with  him. 

23  Q    Was  it  your  understanding  that  — 

24  A    I  believe  at  one  time  he  may  have  said  they  were 
SAS. 


25 


UNCLASSIFIED 


657 


UKI)t<t!SWED 


22 


Q    In  fact,  there  is  a  reference  to  them  in  this 
letter  they  were  SAS;  is  that  correct? 

A    I  believe  so. 

Q    But  it  was  your  understanding  that  they  had  engaged 
in  this  — 

A    In  essence,  they  were  doing  some  contract  work. 

Q    For  Ollie  Ncth? 

A    That  is  my  summation. 

Q  Do  you  recall  when  you  returned  from  this  trip,  as 
best  you  now  recall,  when  you  returned  from  this  trip  with  a 
munitions  list  from  Mr.  Calero? 

A    I  believe  I  may  have,  yes. 

Q    And  I  take  it  there  were  occasions  that  you  do  recall 
returning  from  trips  to  Central  America  with  munitions  list? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  this  may  have  been  one  of  those  occasions? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Assuming  that  you  are  remembering  right  that  this 
was  one  of  those  occasions,  who  did  you  give  the  munitions 
list  to? 

A    Oliver  North. 

Q    And  do  you  recall  anything  about  this  particular 
munitions  list,  what  was  on  it,  what  was  requested? 

A    No,  other  than  it  was  small  arms  ammunition,  and 
at  the  time  the  FDN  was  in  need  of  everything,  mortar  rounds, 


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vmmm 


23 


M-79,  anununition,  and  just  things  that  they  would  need  to 
continue  their  operations. 

Q    Did  you  discuss  the  list  with  Colonel  North? 

A    I  just  gave  it  to  him  and  went  over  it  briefly  with 
him,  that  is,  if  this  was  the  occasion  that  I  brought  them 
back.   There  were  several  times  and  I  just  can't  remember  the 
dates. 

Q    Did  you  also  go  down  to  Costa  Rica  in  late  February 
and  early  March  of  1985? 

A    Yes,  I  did.   I  went  down  at  the  request  of  Colonel 
North.   This- was  going  to  be  the  first  meeting  of  all  the 
Nicaraguan  opposition  groups,  and  out  of  this  came  the  San  Jos 
accords  on  March  1,  and  that  was  when  Adolfo  Calero,  Alfonzo 
Robello,  and  Arturo  Cruz  came  together  and  said  they  would  mov 
forward  in  a  united  effort  to  bring  democracy  to  Nicaragua. 

Q    And  did  anyone  else  from  the  United  States  go 
down  there? 

A    Frank  Gomez,  IBC,  International  Business  Communica- 
tion, and  Jo4inathan  Miller  of  the  State  Department  were  also 
there. 

Q    And  while  down  there,  did  you  have  communications 
with  Colonel  North? 

A    Yes,  I  did.   I  kept  him  informed  as  I  heard  things 
so  that  he  would  be  aware  of  it,  and  then  when  he  had  question 
I  know  that  he  got  in  touch  with  the 


659 


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A    Yes.   There  was  a  problem  because  President  Monge 
decided  to  expel  Adolfo  Calero  from  Costa  Rica  before  they 
could  have  their  new  conference,  and  that  was  a  concern  that 
that  would  not  talte  place,  so  you  could  not  get  the  press 
coverage  that  everyone  had  hoped  to  come  out  of  this. 

Q    nid  Colonel  North  relay  instructions  back  to  you 
about  how  to  deal  with  situations  that  came  up  during  the 
course  of  the  conference? 

A    With  some  things,  I  just  kept  in  touch  with  Miller 
and  Gomez  and  also  Adolfo  Calero. 

Q  Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  March  of  198  5. 
Did  there  come  a  time  in  March  of  1985  when  you  provided 
money  tol 

A    Yes. 

Q    Do  you  know  the  circumstances  behind  you  having  to 
provide  him  with  funds? 

A    It  may  have  been  in  March  or  it  might  have  been 
early  April.   I  am  not  sure  which  it 


660 


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Q    And  as  a  result  of  that,  you  provided  him  with 
funds? 

A    On  one  occasion,  I  was  in  Colonel  North's  office 
and  he  provided  me  with  Travelers  Checks  which  he  asked  me 
to  change  into  cash  so  that  I  could  then  turn  around  and  pro- 
vide that  to^^^^^^^^^^fas  a  payment. 

Q    Did  you  see  on  this  occasion  or  other  occasion  where 
he  obtained  the  Travelers  Checks  from? 

A    Yes.   He  pulled  them  out  of,  I  believe  it  was  the 
bottom  drawer  in  his  safe  in  his  office. 

Q    It  was  a  safe  that  was  actually  in  his  office? 

A    Yes,  sir. 

Q    And  on  this  occasion,  or  on  other  occasions,  did 
he  comment  to  you  whose  safe  it  had  been  previously? 

A    Yes.   We  had  a  laugh  because  it  was  the  same  safe 
where  the  thousand  dollars  that  former  National  Security 
Adviser  Dick  Allen  had  kept. 

Q    Do  you  know  where  Colonel  North  obtained  the 
Travelers  Checks  from? 

A    There  was  a  system,  my  understanding  is  there  was  a 
system  set  up  between  him  and  Adolfo  Calero  and  that  Adolfo 
Calero  would  bring  Travelers  Checks  up  to  him  as  needed. 

Q    Did  you  ever  carry  Travelers  Checks  from  Calero  to 
North? 

A    No,  I  did  not,  but  on  occasion  I  did  tell  Adolfo 


661 


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Calero  that  Colonel  North  needed  some  new  funding. 

Q    Was  anyone  else  involved  in  providing  this  money 
to^^^^ 

A    Because  there  was  either  six  or  seven  thousand 
dollars  that  had  to  be  changed  into  dollars  from  Travelers 
Checks,  he  asked  Jonathan  Miller,  who  at  that  time  was  doing 
some  work  with  him,  to  change  part  of  them  into  Travelers 
Checks,  excuse  me,  change  part  of  the  Travelers  Checks  into" 
dollars. 

Q    And  Jonathan  Miller  did  that? 
A    Yes,  he  did. 
Q    Where  did  — 

MS.  BENSON:   Could  I  ask  just  one  question.   Whose 
name  was  on  the  Travelers  Checks? 

THE  WITNESS:   They  were  always  blanks  and  then  we 
would  fill  in  the  names.   In  this  case,  we  had  to  use  our  own 
names  to  cash  them. 

MS.  BENSON:   So  you  would  use  Robert  Owen? 
THE  WITNESS:   I  would  use  Robert  Owen.   Unfortunate  1 
I  wasn't  provided  with  any  false  identification,  or  fortunatel 
as  the  case  may  be. 

BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Or  fortunately,  yes. 

And  where  did  you  provide  the  money  to 
A    I  set  up  appointments  and  he  came  over  to  my 


yiLAssra 


662 


e 

9 

10 
It 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
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22 
23 
24 
25 


UNSStSSfflED 


27 


Q    Was  Jonathan  Miller  there? 

2  A    No,  he  was  not. 

3  Q    In  or  about  March  of  1985,  did  you  also  provide 
.         money  tc 

-        A    Yes.   I  was  asked  to  meet^^^^^^^^|as  a  matter  of 
g    fact,  I  picked  him  up  outside  the  Old  Executive  Building, 
_    and  we  went  for  a  ride  and  had  a  conversation  and  I  did  provid 

him  with  some  cash  at  that  time.   Actually,  they  may  have  been 
Travelers  Checks;  I  just  can't  remember. 

Q    Do  you  remember  the  approximate  amount  of  money 
that  he  provided  you? 

A  A  couple  thousand  dollars.  I  can't  remember;  maybe 
3,000,  2,000. 

Q    And  where  did  you  obtain  the  money  provided  you? 

A    From  Colonel  North 

Q    Did  you  see  him  on  that  occasion,  if  you  recall, 
take   it  out  of  the  same  safe? 

A  Yes,  he  did.  I  might  add  that  he  kept  very  careful 
records.  Whenever  he  would  take  funds  out,  he  would  write  it 
down  so  that  he  knew  where  his  money  was  going 

Q    Do  you  recall  having  a  conversation  with 
at  the  time  that  you  provided  him  with  the  money  about  addi- 
tional funding  that  may  be  available? 

A    Yes,  it  was  the  hope  at  that  time  —  excuse  me, 
that  all  the  democratic  opposition  could  be  unite 


nMPI  AQQiClFH 


663 


1 

2 
3 
4 
S 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
II 
12 
t3 
14 
15 
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25 


wmm 


28 


There  was  an  effort  that  was  being  undertaken  to 
try  and  bring  all^^^^^^^^^^^^^^together  under  one  umbrell. 
organization  as  had  been  done  with  the  Nicaraguan  opposition 
through  the  San  Jose  Accords,  and  I  was  asked  to  relate  to 

:hat  if  he  was  willing  to  come  together  in  a  unity 
agreement,  he  would  be  provided  with  more  funds  to  help  sus- 
tain his  effort. 

At  this  til 


lis  time  the 

March  or  April  vote  was  coming  up,  and  so  the  thought  was  that 
he  would  be  cible  to  bring  some  more  Members  of  Congress  over 
to  support  the  aid  package. 

Q    But  in  general,  you  indicated  to  him  that  if  he  were 
to  join  the  other  forces,  that  additional  funding  would  be 
available  to  him? 
A    Yes. 

Can  I  just  interrupt? 
(Discussion  off  the  record. ) 


KlASSIFIEn 


664 


20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


OlifamED 


29 


BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    In  late  March  of  1985,  did  you  take  another  trip 
to  Central  America? 

A     Yes,  I  took  a  tr;i£^^^^^^^^^^^^|where  I  provided 

etween  two  and 

three  thousand  dollars  in  Travelers  Checks,  and  this  was  to 
help         his^^^^^^Hof  £  ice  ^^^^^^^^^H  This      from 
March  20  to  March  24. 
Q    Of  1985? 
A    Of  1985,  yes,  sir. 

Q    And  again  on  this  occasion,  you  obtained  the  • 
Travelers  Checks  from  Colonel  North's  safe? 
A    Yes. 

Or  Colonel  North  obtained  them  from  his  safe? 

Yes. 

And  did  you  provide  them  as  cash  or  as  Travelers 


Q 
A 
Q 

Checks? 
A 

CStecks. 
0 
A 


I  think  in  this  case,  I  provided  it  in  Travelers 


And  again  they  would  have  been  blank? 

They  would  have  been  blank,  yes,  sir.   They  were 
all  drawn  up  to  one  or  two  different  banks  in  Miami. 

0    And  during  the  years  of  this  trip,  the  20th  to  the 
24th  of  March  198  5,  did  you  have  an  occasion  to  observe  a 
plane  at  Mr.  Hull's  farm? 


UNCUSSIHEO 


665 


0 


30 


1  A    Yes,  I  was  visiting  with  Mr.  Hull,  and  he  got  a 

2  radio  call  from  one  of  his  farms  saying  that  a  plane  had  landec 

3  there  and  they  were  trying  to  find  another  airstrip,  but  they 
*        didn't  know  how  to  get  there  and  so  John  Hull  and  myself  and 

5  two  others  flew  up  to  the  airstrip. 

6  The  plane  was,  I  believe,  an  islander  which  at  one 

7  time  had  been  part  of  Pastora's  Air  Force,  and  it  was  flown  by 

8  I  believe,  two  Nicaraguans  and  there  was  also  a  Cuban  on  board 

9  and  they  said  they  were  flying  in  fromi 

10  ^B^H^^Hanc^  that  they  were  trying  to  find  Rene  Corvo,  who 

11  had  set  up  this  delivery  process. 

12  I  did  not  look  in  the  plane  to  see  whether  there  wer< 

13  arms  on  it  or  not,  and  I  did  not  really  ask.   They  did  say  it 

14  was  some  military  supplies  that  they  were  bringing  in. 

15  We  subsequently  took  off  and  Hull  flew  them  to  the 

16  airfield  that  they  were  supposed  to  go  to,  where  the  plane  was 

17  then  unloaded,  but  I  did  not  watch  the  unloading  or  find  out 

18  necessarily  what  was  on  the  plane.   It  was  serendipity  that  I 

19  happened  to  be  there  at  the  same  time. 

20  Q    MR.  EGGLESTON:   Let  me  have  this  marked  RO-4 . 

(Whereupon,  RO  Exhibit  No.  4 

was  marked  for  identification.) 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    This  is  a  memo  to  the  Hammer  from  TC,  subject, 
"Southern  Front."   It  is  a  memorandum  dated  April  1,  198  5,  and 


666 


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e 

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mmms 


31 


it  was  provided  to  the  committees  prusuant  to  the  subpoenas 
that  were  issued  to  you  and  provided  after  the  immunity  order 
was  conveyed  upon  you. 

On  page  2  of  the  document,  there  is  a  reference  to 
various  weapons.   The  document  is  generally  about  the 
Southern  Front  and  the  need  to  augment  the  Southern  Front, 
and  on  page  2,  there  are  references  that  I  have  now  yellowed, 
references  to  providing  weapons. 
A    Yes. 

Part  of  this  comes  from  a  meeting  that  I  attended 
here  in  Washington,  D.C.  It  was  with  three  or  four  members 
of  the  Southern  Front,  headed  by  a  fellow  by  the  name  of 

He  and  his  compatriots  had  come  to  Washington 
in  the  hopes  of  meeting  with  Colonel  North. 

As  the  Colonel  didn't  want  to  meet  with  him,  he 
asked  me  to  meet  with  him.   I  did.   I  had  met 
198  3  when  I  first  visitedB^^H^^^Hso  he  did  know  me. 

On  it  was  a  list  --  excuse  me,  included  in  the  packe 
is  a  paper  that  had  been  put  together  to  help  start  a  new 
Southern  Front,  and  this  I  provided  to  Colonel  North. 
Q    Also  attached  to  this  document  is  a  list  of 
munitions;  is  that  correct? 

A  Yes.  This  list  is  their  current  inventory  that  the; 
had  or  that  they  knew  of.  As  you  can  see,  it  is  not  very  mucf 
47-AKs,  7  FALS,  and  4  M-4s  and  18  SKs . 


I 


ONCUSSIFIE 


667 


I 

2 
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Hd 


32 


Q    And  did  you  provide  this  memorandum  and  its  attach- 
ments to  Colonel  North? 
A    Yes,  I  did. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Mr.  Owen,  did  you  write  a  memorandum  following  a 
trip  in  March  of  1985  to  Colonel  North? 

A    Yes,  I  wrote  one  dated  March  26,  in  which  I  told 

him  about  the  ^"^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 

^^l^^^lknd  discussed  the  problem  with  that,  and  there  seemed 
to  be  no  knowledge  of  people^^^^^^^Habout  this  coming 
in,  and  it  was  being  handled  in  a  haphazard  way,  and  it  seemed 
to  have  been  an  operation  being  run  by  a  Cuban  by  the  name 
of  Rene. 

Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  mid-April  of  1985. 
Did  you  have  occasion  at  that  time  to  take  another  trip  to 


A    Yes,  on  April  13. 

Q    And  during  the  course  of  that  trip,  did  you  provide 

an  update  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^BIH^^^H 

A    It  was  an  update  of  the  maps.   The  potential 
for  a  Sandinista  offensive  to  take  place,  Colonel  North  was 
concerned  about  that.   The  maps  that  I  carried  showed  the 
prep  locations  of  the  Sandinista  military  around  the  border, 
where  the  potential  offensive  was  going  to  come,  and  there  was 


668 


ix^wriri 


CI'XtVIIlMI 


1 

2 
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33 


a  suggestion  where^^^^^^^^^^^^^^lcould  move  his  troops. 

Q    Had  you  obtained  those  maps  from  Colonel  North? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Do  you  know  where  Oliver  North  had  obtained  the 
maps? 

A    No.   I  suspect  it  was  probably  from  the  CIA.   I 
gave  --  when ^^^^^^^^^^1/  I  gave  the  maps 

Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  generally  to  April  of 
1985.   Do  you  recall  providing  money  to^^^^^^^^^^at  that 
time? 

A    Yes,  it  was  about  that  time  he  was  in  town,  and  I 
provided  some  funds  for  him  for  living  expenses  while  he  was 
here. 

Q    Do  you  recall  approximately  how  much  money  that  was? 

A    It  may  have  just  been  a  few  hundred  dollars.   I 
think  there  was  another  time  that  I  may  have  provided  him  with 
some  $1,200  that  he  was  owed. 

Q    You  think  it  was  not  this  occasion,  though,  in 
April  of  198  5? 

A    It  may  have  been  one  other  time  when  he  was  up  here. 
I  just  don't  remember  when.   I  am  sorry,  let  me  just  go  back. 
I  said  that  I  provided  the  maps  to] 
is  that  right? 
MR.  HYLDEN:   You  saidi 
THE  WITNESS:   It  was 


669 


CfetSI^H) 


34 


CO 


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BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    This  was  a  trip  that  you  had  taken  tol 
A    Right 

Q    Again  the  money  that  you  provided  to 
obtained  that  money,  I  take  it,  from  Colonel  North? 
A    Yes,  I  did. 

Q    in  16  to  19  May  of  1985,  you  again  took  a  trip  to 
is  that  correct?  ^^^^^^^^^^^ 
At  that  time.^^^^^^V^as 
about  some  of  his  people.   He  had  a  number  of  wounded,  so  we 
were  told,  inside  Nicaragua.   He  wanted  to  get  them  out.  Thi: 
was  brought  to  our  attention  b^-*^^^^^^^^^^^^*^  ° 
representative  in  Washington. 

I  had  several  meetings  with  Colonel  North,  and 
Johnathan  Miller  about  how  to  set  up,  in  essence,  an  evacuati 
of  those  people.   It  was  decided  that  I  would  take  funds  down 
to  buy  gasoline.   We  had  arranged  for  a  motor  to  be  purchased 
for  them  down^^^^^^-   They  aire adjMja^  boat . 

And  so  I  went  down,  met  with ^^^^|  Provided 
funds,  and  he  had  already  been  provided  with  an  outboard  moto 

for  their  boat. 

Q    Approximately  how  much  money  did  you  provide  to 

n  this  occasion? 

think  between  funds  and  goods  that  were  purchased 
round  seven  to  eight  thousand  dollars. 


670 


atmt 


teamM^tfi   mei-t    r  iMi 


mmm 


35 


1 

2 

3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
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13 

Idd  ends/#l        ,^ 

md   fls/#la  .. 

16 
17 
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25 


Q    Do  you  recall  in  what  form  you  provided  him  with 
the  money? 

A    I  believe  it  was  in  Travelers  Checks,  and  he  was 
rather  upset  because  it  was  difficult  for  him  to  cash  Travelers 
Checks  i 

Q    Again,  you  obtained  the  Travelers  Checks  from 
Colonel  North? 

A    Right. 

Q    Let  me  show  you  what  I  would  like  to  have  marked 
RO-5. 

(Whereupon,  RO  Exhibit  No.  5 
was  marked  for  identification.) 


yNCUSSIHED 


671 


md    1 
la 


^^»        20 


21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


mmmi 


36 


BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Let  me  show  what  has  been  marked  as  RO-5  and  ask  you 
whether  this  two-page  document  or  three-page  document,  first 
is  page  1,  in  your  handwriting,  and  secondly,  what  is  the 
document  that  is  attached  to  it? 

A     It  is  my  handwriting.   It  is  a  list  fromj 
land  his  peoole  as  far  as  what  they  needed,  what  they 
felt  they  needed  to  supply  their  men  with  arms  and  uniforms. 

Pages  2  and  3  is  the  list,  runs  everything  from 
boats  to  munitions  to  mortars  to  boots  and  uniforms. 
0    And  you  got  this  list  fromi 

A    Yes.   At  the  time,  we  were  trying  to  develop  a  way 
that  we  could  supply  his  people.   The  thought  was  that  it  woulc 
be  easier  to  supply  his  peopl< 
because  the  travel  time! 

there  was  a  problem  that  exisi 


Q  What  did  you  do  with  the  list? 

A  I  gave  it  to  Colonel  North. 

Q  And  did  you  discuss  it  with  Colonel  North? 

A  I  believe  I  would  have  gone  over  it,  yes. 

0  What  was  your  understanding  that  Colonel  North  would 
do  with  a  list  like  this? 

A  Colonel  North  was  in  essence  at  times  the  quarter- 
master for  the  effort,  and  when  various  equipment  was  needed, 


672 


CO 


md  2 

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•.mum 


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it  would  usually  be  discussed  with  him  or  asked  how  he  could 
supply  the  assistance. 

Q    And  it  was  then  North,  it  was  your  understanding  that 
North  would  figure  out  a  wav  to  provide  the  weapons?  j 

A     Yes.   In  this  case,  I  don't  think  we  ever  did, 
were  able  to  provide  them. 

Q     Do  you  know  a  man  by  the  name  of 

A     Y6 


Did  you,  in  the  spring  of  1985,  provide  money  to 


A    Yes.   At  some  point,  I  believe  it  may  have  been  in 
April,  I  got  a  call  from  Colonel  North  to  come  over  to  his 
office,  where  he  then  provided  me  an  envelope  which  had  funds 
which  he  wanted  me  to  pass  on  to^^^^^^^^^^^H^  who  was 
in  town. 

Q    Did  you  do  so? 

A    Yes,  I  did. 

Q    On  this  occasion  you  provided  it,  you  obtained 
cash  from  Colonel  North? 

A    I  believe  it  may  have  been  a  combination  of  cash 
and  traveler's  checks. 

Q    Did  you  cash  the  traveler's  checks? 

A     No. 

Q    So,  whatever  Colonel  North  gave  you  is  what  you 


673 


CO 


md3 

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provided  tc 

A    That  is  right. 

Q    And  where  did  you  give  the  money  to? 

A    It  was  on  a  rainy  evening,  and  I  stood  outside 
17th  Street,  across  from  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building. 
A  car  pulled  up,  and  the  window  was  rolled  down,  and  I  say 
it  was^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand  provided  him  with  the  funds. 

Q    Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him? 

A    No.   There  was  another  American  who  was  with  him,  whc 
I  recognized  and  just  said  hello  to. 

Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  early  June  of  1985. 
In  early  June,  did  you  have  occasion  to  have  conversations  wit! 
General  Singlaub? 

A    Yes,  I  did.   I  flew  from  Washington  to  Denver  and 
I  drove  up  to  his  home  in  Tabernash.   He  asked  me  to  come  out 
for  a  series  of  meetings  he  was  having,  and  at  that  time  also, 
he  was  putting  the  final  touches  on  the  purchase  of  a  large 
quantity  of  arms  for  the  FDN. 

Q    And  on  whose  instructions  did  you  fly  to  Denver? 

A    It  was  a  combination,  in  talking  with  General 
Singlaub  and  also  talking  with  Colonel  North. 

Q    What  was  your  understanding  about  what  you  were  goin< 
to  do  in  the  meeting  with  General  Singlaub? 

A    It  was  to  sit  in  on  the  meeting  he  was  having  with 
several  people  who  were  coming  to  see  him,  and  then  also  assis 


82-726  0-88-23 


674 


UlliHi&SSIBED 


39 


I 

2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 

to 
n 

12 
13 
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him  in  any  way  that  I  might  be  able  to. 

Q    And  the  assistance  you  were  providing  was  with  regard 
to  an  arms  transaction? 

A    It  turned  out  that  he  had  to  get  some  finalized 
figures  from  Adolfo  Calero.   At  the  time,  Adolfo  Calero  was 
giving  a  speech  in  San  Francisco,  the  next  day,  so  I  flew  to 
San  Francisco  and  had  a  meeting  with  Adolfo. 

Q    Who  were  the  other  people  that  General  Singlaub  was 
meeting  with  in  his  home? 

A    He  was  meeting  with  Colonel  Bob  Brown  of  Soldier 
of  Fortune  Magazine,  and  several  of  his  compatriots.   I  know 
some  of  the  names  and  some  I  don't  remember  now.   Do  you  want 
the  rest  of  them? 

Q    No,  that  is  okay.   Did  you  then  fly  to  San  Francisco 
and  meet  with  Mr.  Calero? 

A    Yes,  I  did. 

Q    And  the  purpose  of  that  trip  was  to  discuss? 

A    To  go  over  the  final  quantities  of  arms  that  were 
going  to  be  purchased  through  General  Singlaub. 

Q    Did  you  take  a  list  with  you? 

A    I  did  take  a  list,  yes,  sir. 

Q    And  did  you,  in  fact,  meet  with  Calero  and  go  over 
the  list? 

A    Yes.   He  was  in  a  rush.   He  and  I  ended  up  sitting 
in  the  back  seat  of  a  car  that  was  driven  by,  I  believe,  Richar 


675 


mmm 


40 


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2 

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25 


Ainsworth  and  someone  else  was  in  the  front  seat.   I  had  a  yelljc 
legal  pad  with  a  listing  of  all  the  munitions  that  were  going 
to  be  Durchased  on  it,  and  we  went  through  it  one  by  one  to 
see  if  those  were  the  correct  quantities  that  he  wanted. 

Q    And  during  the  course  of  driving  around  in  a  car, 
did  you  have  occasion  to  call  Colonel  North? 

A    Yes,  we  stopped  by  a  pay  phone,  and  I  had  talked  with 
Colonel  North  earlier  in  the  day  and  he  asked  me  to  be  sure 
to  have  Adolf o  call  him.   I  got  out,  placed  the  phone  call, 
talked  to  him  a  few  minutes,  gave  the  phone  to  Adolf o   and 
then  they  had  a  conversation. 

Q    Did  you  call  him  at  the  OEOB? 

A     Yes. 

Q    And  did  you  hear  Calero's  half  of  the  conversation? 

A    He  was  talking  about,  I  believe  he  was  talking  about 
some  new  purchases  that  he  needed  and  some  funding. 

Q    New  purchases  of  what? 

A    Possibly  some  arms.   I  am  not  sure  that  he  mentioned 
the  terra  arms  over  the  phone.   We  had  always  tried  to  talk 
somewhat  in  codes,  so  whoever  was  listening  wouldn't  quite 
be  able  to  understand  it,  but  if  they  had  any  common  sense, 
they  probably  could. 

Q    But  it  was  your  understanding  the  conversation  was 

about  an  arms  requirement? 

A    Parly.   There  were  other  things  that  were  discussed. 
A 


676 


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is^ 

^ 

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Q    After  the  meeting  with  Calero  and  going  over  the 
list,  you  then  communicated  with  General  Singlaub? 

A    Yes,  I  did.   I  provided  him  with  the  final  list 
of  what  it  was  that  Adolf o  wanted.   We  had  a  code  worked  out 
that  we  could  do  over  the  phone. 

Q    Do  you  recall  the  approximate  total  value  of  this 
shipment,  of  this  amount  of  arms? 

A    Somewhere  between  5  and  $5.5  million. 

C    And  just  generally  and  quickly,  do  you  remember  what 
was  called  for? 

^^^^^^Hak-47s  .^^^^^^^^Brounds  of  ammunition, 
I  think^^^^^^^^renades .   One  of  the  questions  that  General 
Singlaub  had  was  about  the  purchase  of  some  SA-7s.   He  believed 
he  had  a  good  deal  on  them.   Adolfo  felt  it  would  be  too 
expensive,  and  also  at  this  time,  he  was  trying  to  get  the 
British  Blowpipe. 

Q    Did  you  receive  a  gift,  or  was  a  gift  received 
during  the  course  of  this  trip? 

A    I  brought  a  gift  to  Adolfo  Calero  from  Jack  Singlaub. 
It  was  a  Brazilian  hand  grenade  which  had  been  hollowed  out, 
and  a  Zippo  lighter  had  been  put  in  it. 

One  of  the  scary  things  was  that  I  walked  through 
the  Denver  Airport  and  I  never  set  off  the  alarm. 

Q    After  returning  to  Washington  in  early  June,  after 
this  transaction  involving  General  Singlaub,  did  you  discuss 


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the  deal  with  Colonel  North? 

A  Yes,  I  went  in  and  had  a  meeting  with  him  and  went 
over  the  list.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  provided  him  the  same 
list  that  I  had  gone  over  with  Adolf o  Calero. 

Q    And  so,  it  was  a  list  that  totaled  about  $5.2 
million,  or  between  $5  and  $5.5  million? 

A  Right,  and  a  discussion  took  place  about  the  SA-7s 
and  the  British  Blowpipes  and  so  forth. 

Q    What  was  the  discussion  about  the  SA-7s  and  the 
British  Blowpipes? 

A    At  the  time.  Colonel  North  was  trying  to  get  some 
blowpipes,  or  had  potential  access  to  getting  some  SA-7s 
that  I  thought  he  might  be  able  to  get  at  a  less  expensive 
cost. 

Q    In  mid-June,  about  June  8  of  1985,  did  you  fly  to 
Miami  with  Colonel  North? 

A    No,  I  flew  down  the  day  before.   I  was  asked  to  go 
down  and  rent  several  rooms  at  the  hotel  at  the  airport  of 
Miami  International.   He  was  coming  down  for  a  meeting  with 
Adolfo  Calero,  Alfonso  Robello  and  Arturo  Cruz,  and  I  was 
asked  to  set  up  for  that  meeting,  and  he  flew  in  on  Saturday 
night  around  12:30  p.m.  —  or  a.m.,  excuse  me,  and  then 
I  put  him  on  a  flight  that  left  towards  Atlanta  at  5:00  a.m. 

Q    And  did  a  meeting  take  £lfce_with  Colonel  North  and 
others? 


meeting  take  place  with 

UNCLASSIFIED 


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A    Yes.   There  was  Colonel  North  was  there,  along 
with  Alfonso  Robello,  Arturo  Cruz  and  Adolfo  Calero  and 
Jonathan  Miller  was  also  in  attendance  with  me. 

Q    And  what  was  the  purpose  of  the  meeting?  What  was 
discussed? 

A    The  meeting  was  to  go  forward  in  discussing  the 
unity  amongst  all  the  groups,  in  setting  up  UNO. 
(Discussion  off  the  record.) 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    During  the  course  of  this  trip,  did  you  provide 
any  money  to  any  contras? 

A    I  ended  up  staying  several  days  longer  in  Miami, 
where  I  had  a  series  of  meetings  with  various  representatives 
of  the  Indian  factions.   At  the  time,  we  were  trying  to 
encourage  a  unity  meeting  amongst  the  Indians  in  Miami,  where 
they  would  get  together  and  discuss  a  program,  to  put  together  .  T 
an  assembly,  either^^^^^^^^^^or    the| 
border,  where  they  would  elect  a  new  leadership,  and  I  did 
have  some  funds  that  I  provided  to^^^^^^^^^Bfor  living 
expenses . 

Q    And  how  much  money  was  that? 

A    $2500  to  $3,000,  somewhere  along  there,  I  think. 

Q    And  where  did  you  obtain  that  money? 

A    From  Colonel  North. 

Q    And  in  what  form  did  you  provide  the  money  to; 


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A    Traveler's  checks. 

Q    Did  you  provide  it  in  traveler's  checks? 

A     I  believe  so,  yes.   It  was  also  either  at  that  time 
or  before  that,  I  had  a  meeting  with^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand  one 
of  the  othej^^^^|^n.eaders ,  and  I  placed  a  call  ^°^^^^^^^^| 
^^^Hto  ^^^^^^^^^^^^Hto  try         them  on         terms, 
and  try  to  have^^^^^^^^attend  this  meeting,  and  he 
subsequently  did  come  up  to  Miami  for  the  meetings. 

If  I  may  add,  I  may  have  taken  a  day  trip  down 
later  the  next  week  to  provide  more  funds.   I  don't  remember, 
but  I  don't  think^^^^^^^^had  come  at  that  time,  and  I 
ended  up  going  down  to  provide  some  money  for^^^^^^^^^^H 

Q    Providing  money  to^^^^^^^Hin  a  separate  trip. 

A    Right,  or  money  to^^^^^^Hplus  to  some  of  the 
others,  an  additional  fund,  but  we  were  in  essence  trying 
to  support  them  while  they  were  here  going  through  their 
meetings. 

Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  late  August  of  1985. 
Did  you  travel  to  Costa  Rica  at  that  time? 

A    Yes,  I  did. 

Q    And  what  was  the  purpose  of  traveling  to  Costa  Rica 
in  late  August? 

A    I  was  asked  to  go  down  on  behalf  of  Colonel  North 
to  meet  withi 


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discuss  the  establishment  of  an  airfield  that  could  be  used 
to  resupply  the  democratic  resistance. 

Q    And  Colonel  North  asked  you  to  take  the  trip? 

A    Yes,  he  did. 

Q    And  who  in  Costa  Rica  did  you  discuss  this  with? 

A    I  was  met  by  cne^^^Kt  the  airport,  and  I 
subsequently  had  some  meetings  with  him,  and  then  I  also  had 
a  meeting,  I  believe,  with  Ambassador  Tambs ,  and  the 
and  I  met  with 

Q    And  the  purpose  was  to  discuss  where  to  obtain,  where 
to  place  the  air  strip? 

A    Yes,  it  was.   There  were  two  openings  at  the  time, 
and  they  had  pretty  much  settledon  one,  and  we  discussed  this 
w  i  t  h^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^^^^^^^^^^^^^^K  r  r  a  n  g  e  d 
fly  out  the  next  morning  by  helicopter  to  do  a  survey  of  the 
site. 

Q    And  did  you? 

A    Yes,  I  did,  and  I  took  pictures  and  brought  them  back, 

Q    Was  there  discussion  about  using  offshore  accounts  ana 
companies  in  order  to  establish  the  airfield? 

A    Yes,  we  discussed  what  kind  of  cover  operation  could 
be  established,  so  that  we  would  not  draw  too  much  attention. 
The  thought  was  to  set  up  a  Panamanian  company  if  one  didn't 
already  exist,  and  have  the  property  either  purchased  or 
rented  by  several  Americans  who  would  be  establishing  either  an 


681 


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agricultural  testing  center  or  for  some  other  means  to  use  it 

as  a  cover. 

Q    And  did  you  discuss  this  concept  with  Colonel  North: 
A    Upon  my  return,  I  provided  the  pictures  and  providec 

a  memo  to  the  Colonel  on  the  establishment  of  the  airfield. 
Q    And  that  is  the  memorandum  that  you  provided  to  us 

that  is  dated  .;.ugust  25,  1985? 
A    Yes. 

Q    Did  you  have  any  further  dealings  with  this  airfield 
A    I  had  some,  but  a  decision  was  made  at  that  time  to 

take  me  off  the  account.   NHAO  was  about  the  be  formed,  and 

the  thought  was  that  it  would  be  best  to  have  me  become 


Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  late  August  or  earl^ 
September  of  1985.   Did  you  have  a  conversation  with  Colonel 
North  abou^^^^^^Bat  that  time? 

A  There  had  been  a  series  of  discussions  going  on  for 
quite  a  while  about  trying  to  raise  money  f rom^^^^^Bcountrie 
I  was  asked  to  come  in  and  see  him,  and  asked  to  pay  a  visit 


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Q    And  were  you  given  anything  to  take  with  you? 

A    Yes,  I  was  given  an  envelope  which  had  a  foreign 
bank  account  number  on  it. 

Q    Do  you  know  where  the  bank  account  was? 

A    I  believe  it  was  Switzerland. 

Q    And  you  know  this  not  because  you  saw  it  in  the 
envelope,  but  because  Colonel  North  told  you  what  was  in  the 
envelope? 

A    Right. 

Q    And  did  you,  in  fact,  give  it  to  the  representative 
of^^^" 

A    Yes,  I  did.   I  had  a  meeting  with  him,  and  provided 
him  with  that  envelope,  and  thanked  him  very  much  for  whatever 
he  could  do  to  help. 

Q    Who  was  the  individual? 

A    It 

Q 

A 

Q    Did  you  have  a  conversation  with  the  representative? 

A    Yes,  it  was  a  brief  conversation.   We  talked  about 
what  was  in  the  envelope,  and  the  need  for  it,  and  also  how 
much  it  was  appreciated.   I  believe  in  the  conversation,  he  die 


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say  that  he  had  several  conversations  with  Colonel  North,  and 
also  Gaston  Sigur  may  have  come  up. 

Q    Was  the  conversation  about  the  contras? 

A    It  was  in  essence,  and  it  was  also  talking  about 
their  need  and  how  our  government  certainly  would  appreciate 
whatev^er  assistance  they  could  provide. 

Q    What  other  — 

A    I  will  add  that  when  I  did  go,  I  did  say  that  I  was 
not  a  formal  representative  of  the  United  States  Government, 
that  I  was  a  private  individual. 

Q    What  other^^^^^^^^^w:ountries  were  mentioned  as 
being  possible  sources  of  funds  for  the  contras? 

A 

Q    Any  others  that  you  recall? 

A    No.   Subsequently,  I  heard  ^^^^^^^Hwas  one,  too. 

Q    These  are  in  conversations  that  you  had  with  Colonel 
North,  I  take  it,  where  other  countries  were  mentioned? 

A    Yes.   Also,  General  Singlaub  had  been  actively 
trying  to  solicit  assistance. 

Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  September  and  Octobe 
of  1985.   It  is  my  understanding  from  prior  conversations  with 
you  that  you  took  three  trips  to  New  York  in  or  about  that 
time  in  order  to  obtain  money. 

Could  you  just  very  briefly  describe  each  of  those 
three  trips,  on  whose  instructions  you  took  the  trip,  and  the 


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logistics  for  the  trip? 

A    Again,  I  had  several  conversations  with  Oliver  North. 
One  time,  I  was  called  in  and  asked  to  go  to  New  York  to  pick 
up  a  packet  from  him.   He  put  me  on  the  phone  with  Mr.  Copp. 

Q    C-o-p-p? 

A    C-o-p-p.   Who  I  knew  was  General  Secord,  and  he 
gave  me  instructions.   I  few  to  New  York.   I  then  called  Copp 
to  get  the  final  instructions,  and  on  two  occasions,  I  went  to 
a  bank,  and  was  given  a  name  of  a  person  to  go  see,  and  then  I 
was  handed  an  envelope.   Once  I  did  see  them,  I  said  who  I  was 
from. 

Q    When  you  said  where  you  were  from  — 

A    I  believe  I  said  you  are  expecting  me,  I  am  from 
Mr.  Copp.   I  believe  I  used  Mr.  Copp's  name. 

Q    And  on  another  occasion,  you  obtained  money  not  from 
a  bank,  but  from  another  place? 

A    No,  on  Rosh  Hashanah,  which  I  believe  was  September 
16th,  1985,  it  was  a  bank  holiday  in  New  York.   I  flew  to 
New  York,  again  talked  with  General  Secord.   He  gave  me  the 
address  of  a  corner  Chinese  deli  on  the  West  Side,  the  Lower 
West  Side  of  New  York,  a  Chinese  vegetable  stand,  and  I  went  to 


BY  MS.  BENSON: 


ytJciftSSiFe 


Q    You  said  Lower  West  Side? 

A    Yes.   I  went  to  the  location.   I  had  been  given  a 


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name.   I  asked  for  the  person,  and  I  told  them  that  I  had  been 
given  a  name  to  use  by  General  Secord,  and  I  gave  him  that 
name.   It  was  not  Secord.   It  was  something  like  Manny,  but  I 
really  can't  remember. 

The  individual  then  went  behind  the  counter  and 
unrolled  his  pant  leg,  I  believe,  and  pulled  out  a  wad  of 
$100  bills  and  then  asked  me  if  I  wanted  to  count  them.   I 
subsequently  did,  and  there  were  95  $100  bills. 

I  then  flew  back  to  Washington,  went  to  the  Sheraton 
Carlton  Hotel,  where  I  was  to  meet  General  Secord.   I  saw 
him  in  the  bar.   I  went  downstairs  and  used  the  house  phone, 
called  the  bar,  told  him  I  was  there;  he  came  out,  met  me  in 
the  lobby,  and  I  handed  him  the  money  rolled  in  a  newspaper. 

Then  I  did  say,  well,  I  think  he  must  have  taken  his 
5  percent.   I  commented  that  there  was  $9500  there.   I  thought 
I  would  provide  an  even  10,000,  but  he  said  through  the 
currency  restrictions,  he  didn't  want  the  money  to  be  $10,000 
or  higher,  so  that  is  why  it  was  $9500. 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  in  October  of  1984,  you  had  become  employed 
as  a  consultant  to  NHAO;  is  that  correct? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  did  you  become  employed  as  a  consultant  through 
the  foundation  that  you  had  set  up? 

A    Through  an  organization  called  the  Institute  for 


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Democracy,  Education  and  Assistance.   It  was  founded  in 
January  1985  as  a  nonprofit  501(c)(3). 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  in  late  November  of  1985,  did  you  ta)ce  a 
trip  down^^^^^^^^^H,  did  you  not,  with  regard  to  a  humanitari 
^^^^^^^^ 

A    In  November  — 

Q     Of  1985?  ^^^^^^^^ 

A    Of  1985,  November  13,  I  flew  down^^^^^^^^^fto  do 
a  survey  of  the  needs  and  how  things  were  going.   Money  had 
started  to  flow  at  the  time,  so  I  met  with  a  number  of  the 
FDN,  also  with^^^^^^^^^^^^^nd  with| 


Q     I  am  not  going  to  ask  you  any  more  details  about  thai 
trip,  although  you  have  provided  them  to  us  in  prior  meetings 
that  we  have  had.   Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  the 
trip  that  you  took  in  January  of  1986,  the  11th  to  the  18th. 
I  understand  that  at  that  time,  you  took  a  trip  from  New 
Orleans  actually  down  ^'^'^^^^^^^^^B  ^^  that  correct? 

A    Yes.   I  had  met  with  Colonel  North,  and  he  asked  me 
to  accompany  a  flight  that  was  going  down  to^^^^^^H.   At 
the  time,  though,  I  was  working  for  NHAO.   I  still  let  him  knc 
what  I  was  doing,  and  did  some  work  at  his  request,  so  I  had 
to  walk  a  very  fine  line  with  NHAO,  and  Ambassador  Dooling,  bi. 
I  did  fly  to  New  Orleans,  and  then  drove  over  to  Gulf port, 
Mississippi,  where  I  met  with  some  representatives  of  the  Nav 


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who  were  providing  the  Butler  Buildings,  and  then  on  SAT, 
Southern  Air  Transport,  L-lOO  came  in  to  the  air  strip  there. 
We  loaded  on  the  Butler  Buildings  and  we  flew  to 

where  the  buildings  were  unloade 
and  they  were  to  be  used  to  store  at  that  time  potentially 
NHAO  goods,  because^^^^^^^fhad  shut  off  flights,  and  we  had 
a  backlog  of  material  that  had  to  get  down  there. 

Q    You  take  then  an  additional  series  of  flights  or 
trips  down  to  Central  America  in  the  winter  and  spring  of  1986. 
A    Yes. 

Q    And  let  me  just  ask  you  on  one  occasion,  you  became 
involved  with  one  particular  flight  that  had  a  series  of  meetin 
—  or  with  you  and  Chi  Chi  and  Colonel  Steele.   Could  you 
relate  when  that  took  place,  and  information  about  that 
particular  flight? 

A    I  met  with  Colonel  North,  I  believe,  sometime  around 
the  23rd  of  March,  and  during  this  time,  we  were  continuing 
to  try  and  find  ways  to  supply  the  southern  front  with  arms 
inside  Nicaragua,  either  through  air  drop  or  any  other  means. 

A  SAT  flight  was  going  down  from  Dulles  to  Miami, 
and  then  on  to^^^^^^^f  I  went  up  to  Dulles ,  picked  up  the 
SAT  flight.   On  board  was  a  representative  of  Dick  Gadd  and 
myself,  and  flew  to  Miami. 

Where  there,  we  tried  to,  the  pilots  tried  to  get 
equipment  that  could  be  used  for  an  air  drop.   The  idea  was 


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that  medical  goods  would  be  unloaded  atl 

LArms  would  then  be  loaded  up.   The  flight  would  fly 
to^^^^^^^B  where  the  arms  would  be  packaged  for  a  drop,  and 
then  the  following  night,  it  would  be  dropped  to  the  forces 
in  the  south. 

In^^^^^^H,  we  were  greeted  by  Rcunon  Medina  and 
Chi  Chi  Rodriguez. 

Q     Chi  Chi  Contero?^ 

A    Chi  Chi  Contero  and  Felix  Rodriguez.   The  arms  had 
not  been  released  at^^^^^^^Bwhen  we  arrived.   I  went  and 
asked^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bif  he 
and  asked  them  if  they  were  released,  and  if  there  was  some 
follow-up,  because  I  had  been  assured  by  Colonel  North  that 
they  would  be  there  waiting  for  us  to  load. 

He  did,  and  the  reply  came  back  that  the  FDN  hadnot 
released  the  arms. 

BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 
Was  that^^^^^^^^^ 
A    You  mean  ^^^^^^^^^B   ^^  ^^^  neither  one.   It  was 
one  of  their  representatives.   He  did  a  coded  call  into  the 
and  they  tracked  down,  I  believe  they  tracked  down 

)ing  to  move  had  already  come 
ind  they  were 
supposed  to  have  been  moved  over  tc^^^^^^^^Hby  this  time, 
and  to  be  loaded  up,  or  the  FDN  was  going  to  provide  some  of 


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the  arms  and  munitions.   This  did  not  take  place.   We  were  in 
Several  calls  were  made  to  Colonel  North,  also  by 
Steele^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand  a  call 
to  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^o        the  drop  when 
things  didn't  work  out. 

We  went  through  a  series  of  meetings  to  try  and  come 
up  with  a  way  to  get  the  arms.   Finally,  it  was  decided 
to  scrub  the  mission.   They  went  back  to  Florida,  and  I  went 
down  t  ^^ 

BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Mr.  Owen,  you  had  other  trips  which  you  took  to 
Central  America  throughout  the  summer  of  1986. 
A    Until  June  of  1986. 
Q    Until  June  of  1986? 

A    Right.   My  last  trip  for  NHAO,  I  came  back  on  May  30 
Q    And  let  me  just  direct  your  attention  and  just  cover 
some  things  in  a  summary  fashion. 

Obviously,  these  are  areas  that  you  have  substantial 
additional  information  about,  and  you  have  provided  that  to 
us,  but  almost  by  my  summary,  you  previously  told  us  that  you 
had  conversations  with  Colonel  North  about  the  CIA  purchasing 
the  private  material  that  had  been  used  for  the  private  supply 
operations,  is  that  correct?   You  had  previously  told  us  about 
that. 

A    Yes.   He  had  hoped  that  the  agency  would  pick  up  the 


690 


md2  0 


mmmB 


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private  network  that  had  been  set  up  and  use  that. 

Q    Those  conversations  you  had  with  Colonel  North  were 
in  the  suiraner  of  1986? 

A    Summer  or  early  fall,  and  he  was  rather  upset  because 
the  agency  didn't  want  to  touch  any  of  it.   They  felt  it  was 
tainted,  and  the  people  were  already  exposed,  and  so  they  did 
not  want  to  have  anything  to  do  with  it. 

Q    You  have  also  told  us  that  a  meeting  took  place  betwe^r 
you,  at  least  one,  in  or  about  September  of  1986  with  General 
Secord,  where  he  told  you  a  number  of  things. 

One  of  the  things  that  he  told  you  about  was  the 
decision  in  1985  to  remove  Calero  from  control  of  the  funding, 
and  that  the  funding  control  was  put  in  the  hands  of  Secord 
and  Colonel  North;  is  that  correct? 

A    Yes,  it  is. 

Q    And  did  he  also  tell  you  about  a  meeting  that  had 
taken  place  between  himself  and  Director  Casey? 

A    It  was  either  at  that  meeting  or  another  meeting 
he  talked  about  it,  at  least  one  if  not  several  meetings  he  had 
with  Director  Casey. 

Q    During  the  course  of  the  meeting  between  Secord  and 
Director  Casey,  Secord  had  discussed  with  Director  Casey  the 
situation  in  Nicaragua,  and  also  the  purchasing  of  the  assets 
of  the  airfield;  is  that  correct? 

A    I  believe  so.   I  am  not  sure. 


691 


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Q    You  were  relating  to  us  in  any  event? 

A    Right. 

Q    What  Secord  told  you  about  the  meeting. 

A    Right,  and  it  may  have  been  --  yes. 
BY  MS.  BENSON: 

Q     Yes? 

A    Yes,  as  well  as  I  can  remember.   There  were  things 
we  needed  to  discuss,  I  talked  at  at  least  one  meeting  with 
Director  Casey  about  the  effort. 

Q    Do  you  recall  General  Secord  saying  that  he  had 
spoken  with  Director  Casey  about  the  CIA  purchasing  the 
air  strip  and  the  other  assets  connected  with  the  air  supply 
operation? 

A    I  believe  so.   I  can't  be  100  percent  positive,  but 
I  believe  so. 

BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    It  is  your  best  recollection  that  in  the  meeting 
that  you  had  with  General  Secord,  General  Secord  had  told  you 
about  this  meeting  with  Casey,  and  you  think  that  is  one  of  the 
things? 

A    It  was  either  in  this  meeting  or  a  meeting  I  had  with 
General  Secord  in  Colonel  North's  office. 

Q    And  when  would  that  have  been  in  relation  to  this? 


Sometime  in  late  1986 


UNCLASSIFIED 


692 


md    22 


yii»o 


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p5 

i/  .■■■*> 


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BY  MR.  LEON: 

Q    Who  was  at  that  meeting? 

A    Secord,  Ollie  and  myself. 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  let  me  ask  you  in  the  spring  of  1985, 
at  the  time  that  you  were  providing  the  money  to  the  various 
contra  leaders,  did  you  and  Colonel  North  joke  about  who  was 
going  to  jail  first? 

A    Yes,  we  would  joke  about  that. 

Q    And  did  you  also  joke  with  Jonathan  Miller  about  that|? 

A    Yes,  we  did.   He  thought  we  should  bone  up  on  our 
chess  games  so  that  we  could  play  between  the  bars. 

Q    And  was  this  because  of  the  sort  of  generally 
fertive  and  unseemly  nature  of  distributing  money  on  rainy 
street  corners  outside  the  OEO  Building? 

A    I  would  say  that  mightbe  an   appropriate  statement. 

Q    Was  there  any  specific  discussion  of  the  Boland 
amendment  and  whether  or  not  you  were  violating  the  Boland 
amendment? 

A    It  was  very  questionable.   I  think  everyone  knew  we 
were  walking  a  very  fine  line. 

Q    But  nevertheless,  you  joked  that  you  might  have 
gone  over  the  line  and  might  end  up  in  jail? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Let  me  ask  you,  did  Colonel  North  tell  you  whether  or 


693 


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^ 

^ 

& 


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m. 


56 


not  the  President  of  the  United  States  knew  what  Colonel 
North  was  up  to  in  Central  America? 

A    He  did  not  say  it  in  those  words.   He  did  say, 
I  once  asked  him  about  the  memos  that  I  provided  to  him,  and 
he  said  they  went  across  the  street  to  those  above  him.   He 
did  say,  don't  worry,  what  you  are  doing,  you  are  doing  it  for 
—  is  what  the  President  wants  done,  and  it  is  for  God  and 
Country. 

Q    You  knew  at  that  time  that  the  President  was  meeting 
with  various  private  fund-raisers;  is  that  correct? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  you  knew  that  the  meetings  he  was  having  with 
the  fund-raisers  was  with  regard  to  raising  money  for  the 
contras? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  that  that  money  was  being  funnelled  into  Colonel 

North? 

A    I  knew  that  funds  were  being  pulled  together.   I 
didn't  know  where  it  was  all  being  funnelled.   Are  you  speaking 
about  one  particular  group,  one  particular  fund-raising  group? 

Q    I  wasn't  speaking  about  one  group  in  particular, 
actually.   What  I  was  really  asking  about  is  just  whether  or 
not  you  had  any  conversations  with  Colonel  North  about  whether 
or  not  the  President  knew  about  where  the  money  was  going  to 
go,  and  the  purpose  for  which  the  money  was  going  to  be  raised. 


694 


CO 


;!S 


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^mMB 


59 


A    Actually,  those  conversations  didn't  really  take 
place  between  me  and  Colonel  North. 

0    Did  Colonel  North  tell  you,  as  he  has  told  others, 
that  the  President  knew  what  he  was  doing  with  regard  to 
maintaining  the  operation  in  Central  America? 

A    I  got  that  impression,  yes. 

Q    Did  he  say  things  to  you  that  led  you  to  conclude 
that  the  President  knew? 

A    He  said,  what  you  are  doing  you  are  doing  for  —  I 
can't  exactly  remember  what  the  words  were,  and  I  don't  want 
to  put  words  into  his  mouth,  but  it  was  in  essence,  the  fact 
that  what  we  were  doing  was  for  this  President  and  for  this 
Administration. 

Q    But  knowing  Ollie,  you  didn't  have  any  reason  to 
think  that  he  was  doing  it  completely  on  his  own? 

A    No.   I  once  had  a  conversation  with  him,  as  a  matter 
of  fact,  the  day  that  all  of  this  broke,  and  his  comment 
was,  "You  know,  I  would  never  do  anything  unless  I  was  ordered 
or  I  was  under  order  to  do  it.   I  would  not  do  anything  on 
my  own . " 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Thank  you  very  much. 
MR.  GREENEBAUM:   I  only  want  to  ask  you  one  thing. 
Near  the  end,  you  started  to  give  what  appeared  to  be  a  menu 
of  things  that  this  witness  has  discussed  with  you,  and  I  would 
only  want  the  record  to  reflect  that  you  discussed  many  things 


695 


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^mMB 


60 


which  were  not  in  that  menu.   I  don't  think  you  meant  it  to  be 
all-inclusive. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Mr.  Greenebaum  has  just  indicated 
to  me  that  I  had  listed  various  things,  in  quickly  going  througlh 
the  end  of  the  deposition,  the  various  things  that  Mr.  Owen 
has  told  us  about.   That  list  was  net    intended  to  be  exclusive 
in  any  fashion. 

He  has  also  told  us  about  a  number  of  things  that 
occurred  in  the  sununer  of  1984  to  1986. 

THE  WITNESS:   I  would  just  like  to  add  that  on  severa 
occasions,  Colonel  North  did  tell  me  that  he  would  be  the 
fall  guy  if  things  went  bad. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Thank  you. 


\!Ha^ssro 


696 


TAKE  2     1 

CANTOR:mhl 
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CO 


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(The  deposition  was  moved  to  room  2261  Rayburn  House 
Office  Building) . 

Mr.  LEON:   Back  on  the  record. 

We  have  taken  a  briefing  break  and 
relocated  our  offices. 

Just  to  introduce  myself  for  the  record, 
my  name  is  Richard  Leon,  the  Deputy  Chief  Minority  Counsel, 
for  the  House  Committee  ,  and  with  me  is  Terry  Smiljanich, 
Counsel  for  the  Senate  Committee. 
BY  MR.  LEON: 
Q     I  would  like  to  pick  up  a  few  areas,  Mr.  Owen, 
that  you  previously  discussed  with  Mr.  Eggelston,  and  go  over 
those  with  you. 

First  of  all,  with  respect  to  the  discussion  that 
came  up  regarding  Ambassador  Duemling,  and  the  fine  line  you 
were  walking,  I  think  you  were  talking  about  your  involvement 
in  the  Suiter  Building? 
A     Right. 

Q     Being  located  intc 
A      Ir   ^^^ 

Q    ^^^^^^^^Bexcuse  me.   Would  you  elaborate  a  little 
bit  with  respect  to  your  comment  about  you  were  walking  a 
fine  line  there? 

A     It  was  Oliver  North's  suggestion  that  I  apply  for 
job  at  NAHO.   When  I  first  went  to  meet  Ambassador  Duemling 
he  didn't  see  that  there  would  be  a  place  for  me.   I  think 


697 


mmms 


62 


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that  he  probably  in  the  beginning,  felt  that  he  was  pressured 
to  hire  me  by  Oliver  North  and  possibly  others.   I  think  in 
the  beginning  also,  he  therefore,  was  very  wary  of  me  and  what 
I  was  doing.   He  looked  upon  me  perhaps  as  Oliver  North's  man 
in  the  inside  who  could  keep  him  informed  as  to  what  was 
going  on. 

Again,  in  tne  very  beginning  he  wasn't  quite  sure 
what  it  was  that  I  was  going  to  do,  and  he  may  have  felt  he 
was  saddled  with  me,  but  he  eventually  —  we  ended  up  having 
a  very  good  working  relationship,  at  least  I  think  so,  and  I 
tried  to  keep  him  as  best  informed  as  I  could. 

There  was  always  some  question  as  to  who  I  really 
worked  for.   During  a  GAO   investigation,  they  asked  me  do 
you  work  for,  you  know,  or  do  vou  work  for  Oliver  North,  or 
do  you  work  for  NAHO.   And  I  said,  I  am  paid  by  the  State 
Department.   I  contract  to  them,  but  the  pNO  people 
are  the  ones  I  am  supposed  to  be  responsible  to.   So,  in 
essence  I  was  sort  of  working  for  three  different  groups  — 
NAHO,  Oliver  North,  and  UNO. 

Q     Did  you  have  any  reason  to  believe  that  the  funds 
that  were  paying  your  salary  came  from  UNO? 

A     No,  I  knew  that  they  were  U.S.  Government  funds 
from  the  State  Department,  part  of  the  $27  million  grant. 

Q     Now,  with  respect  to  the  Butler  Building,  when  you 
said  you  were  walking  a  fine  line,  did  you  consider  your 


698 


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conduct  at  that  time  to  be  potentially  in  violation  of  the 
Boland  amendment? 

A     No,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  the  reason  I  said  that 
about  walking  a  fine  line  with  the  Butler  Building  is  because 
I  knew  about  it  before  Ambassador  Duemling  talked  to  me  about 
it,  so  that  is  he-'.   I  mean,  everyone  was  sort  of  playing 
bames,  and  Colonel  North  didn't  want  Ambassador  Duemling  to 
get  upset  with  me,  so  we  sort  of  had  to  finesse  a  number  of 
things. 

Q     But  you  didn't  consider  your  conduct  in  assisting 
with  those  buildings,  to  be  potentially  in  violation  of  any 
law,  and  in  particular,  the  Boland  amendment? 

A     No.   Specifically  because  the  decision  to  move  the 
Butler  Building  down  there  was  predicated  on  the  fact  that 


Icould  be  a  staging  point  for  air  drops  to  the  FDN  anc 
potentially  the  troops  in  the  south,  and  it  would  be  able  to 
provide  a  way  station.   Obviously,  the  thought  was  humanitaria 
goods  could  be  used  for  it,  but  subsequently,  they  were  used 
for  arms  as  well. 

Q     At  another  point  in  your  testimony  earlier,  you 
were  talking  about  conversations  that  you  had  with  Colonel 
North  and  Mr.  Secord  with  respect  to  the  resupply  operation, 
and  certain  of  its  assets  --  in  particularly  airplanes  and 
the  airstrip.   Do  you  recall  that; 


IINCIASSIFIEC 


699 


23 
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mwsm 


64 

1  A  Yes, 

2  Q     With  regard  to  that,  I  would  like  to  see  if  I 

3  could  clarify  something  for  the  record.   Was  it  your  impressior 

4  that  Colonel  North,  in  1986,  believed  that  those  assets,  the 

5  airplanes  and  the  airstrip,  were  things  that  were  going  to  be 

6  sold  to  the  CIA,  or  just  given  to  the  CIA? 

7  '       A     It  was  my  impression  that  they  probably  were  going 

8  to  be  given.   General  Singlaub  — 
g         Q     Singlaub  or  Secord? 

JO         A     No,  I  am  changing.   Singlaub  is  another  individual 
If    who  I  had  a  number  of  dealings  with  and  the  General  on  one 
12    occasion,  hoped  that  he  would  be   able  to  sell  his  assets, 
j2    or  at  least  get  reimbursed  at  cost,  so  he  could  then  go  use 
those  funds  for  other  efforts  that  he  was  involved  with,  but 
he  was  told  that  that  was  not  oging  to  be  the  case,  that  he 
would  have  to  give  them  over,  and  even  by  his  givingthem, 
there  was  some  question  whether  the  CIA  would  make  use  of 
them. 

Q     Was  it  your  impression  that  General  Secord  believed 
that  those  assets  were  owned  by  the  Contras  or  by  Udall  or 
some  others? 


A     We  never  really  discussed  that,  but  during  several 
22 


conversations  the  thought  was  that  in  essence  they  wanted  — 
my  impression  was  they  wanted  to  give  them  to  the  agency  or 
have  them  pick  up  — 


UNCUSSIRES 


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mmsm 


65 


Q  Who   is   they? 

A     Ollie  —  Colonel  North,  General  Secord.   At  least 
they  wanted  to  have  the  agency  pick  up  the  tab  for  the  cost 
of  fuel,  the  planes  and  the  pilots,  and  the  network  that  had 
been  put  together,  so  that  it  wouldn't  have  to  come  out  of 
funds  that  may  not  exist  any  longer,  or  may  have  run  out  by 
then. 

Q     When  you  say  the  planes,  do  you  mean  the  CIA  would 
purchase  the  planes? 

A     That,  I  don't  know.   I  can't  comment  on  that. 

Q     Can  you  comment  as  to  whether  it  was  your 
impression  that  there  was  any  disagreement  between  North  and 
Secord  as  to  what  should  be  done  with  those  planes? 

A     I  don't  know. 

Q     Did  you  sense  any? 

A     No.   The  only  sense  1  had  was  that  Ollie  wanted 
the  equipment  to  be  used,  seeing  as  they  were  already  in  place 
and  felt  there  was  an  ongoing  operation. 

Q     You  have  mentioned  in  your  prior  testimony 

Did  you  have  any  personal  meetings  or  discussions 

with  ^^^^^ 

A     I  never  had  any  personal  meetings  withl 
but  on  numerous  occasions  when  I  would  be  in  Ollie  North's 
office,  he  would  pick  up  the  phone  and  call 

Q     Were  you  aware  that^^^^^^^^tfwas  a  member  of  the 


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66 

RIG  organization? 

A     Yes,  I  was.   I  knew  that  in  essence  that  the  RIG 
was  Oliver  North,  Elliott  Abrams,  andl 

Q     Did  you  ever  have  any  personal  meetings  or 
discussions  with  Elliott  Abrams? 

A     No,  I  did  not. 

Q     With  respect  to^^^^^^^^^fdid  North  comment  to 
you  from  time  to  time  oi^^^^^^^^^l involvement  in  this? 

A     No.   The  only  conversations  would  be  when  he  had 
phone  calls  with  him  while  I  was  in  the  office,  but  we  did 
not  discuss  his  intimate  knowledge  or  working  relationship, 
although  I  was  under  the  impression  that  everything  Oliver 
North  did,  and  I  will  add  here  most  eveyrthing  that] 
I  d  i  d ,  ^^^^^^^^H  knew 

Q     That  is  more  specifically  what  I  wanted  to  get  to. 
You  dealt  with^^^^^^^^^^^Hextensively? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Was  it  your  impression  that  his  acts  with  respect 
to  this  program,  were  done  with  the  knowledge  and  consent  of 


A     I  believe  that  they  were  at  least  done  with  his 
knowledge.   I  don't  know  whether^^^^^^^^^consented  to  it. 
I  think  one  of  the  things  that  should  be  kept  in  mind  is  that 
the  between^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^fts 

[there  was  an  ongoing  military  effort  and  a  structure 


702 


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mimm 


67 


that  existed.   There  was  no  real  structure  in  the  south,  and 
it  was  an  effort  undertaken  by  a  number  of  people,  including 

land  myself,  and  others,  to  try  and  develop 
the  structure  so  that  there  would  be  something  to  use  in  the 
south  for  a  second  front  against  the  Sandinista  military. 

Q     Did  you  ever  get  the  impression  fromi 
that  he  was  acting  either  outside  the  knowledge  of| 
or  against  the  orders  oi 

A     No.   I  knew  from  conversations  that  there  was  some, 
potentially  some  animosity  betweer 

but  I  did  not  get  the  impression  that  he  was  --  let  me  j us t 
backtrack  and  say  that  the  operation  was  small  enough  so  that 

cnew  what  was  going  on.   I  am  constrained  that  he 
knew  what  was  going  on. 

Q     Did  Ollie  North  ever  give  you  the  impression  in 
either  anything  he  said  or  anything  he  did,  that  he  was  askinc 
to  do  something,  anything,  without  the  knowledge 


A     No,  I  did  not  get  that  idea.   But  in  April  I  did 
take  an  encryption  device  down  to^^^^^^^^^^Hso  that  he 
could  have  his  own  -- 

Q     April  of  what  year? 

A     April  of  1986  —  his  own  secure  communications 
link  directly  with  Oliver  North  so  that  he  wouldn't  have 
to  run  to  the  secure  line  everytime  they  talked. 


703 


mmsM 


68 


1 
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'8 
19 
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25 


Q  The  secure  line  at  the  Embassy? 

A  At  the  Embassy  and  at  Ollie's  office,  yes. 

Q  [)o  you  know  whether  or  not^^^^Hwas  aware  of  that? 

A  That,  I  do  not  know. 

Q  Oo  you  know  if^^^^Hhad  a  similar  such  device? 

A  That,  I  do  not.   My  guess  is  no,  because  Ollie 
just  picked  up  the  secure  line  and  called  him. 

Q  With  respect  to  Ambassador  Tambs ,     did  you  deal 

with  im  directly? 

t 

A     I  first  me  Ambassador  Tambs  in  Oliver  North'^s 

office  before  he  went  down  to  Costa  Rica  to  assume  the 
Ambassadorship.   Ollie  introduced  me  as  one  of  his  people  that 
would  be  traveling  frequently  down  there.   The  Ambassador  said 
any  time  youare  down,  please  stop  in  and  see  me.   So,  on 
most  of  my  trips  down  there,  I  did  go  in  and  visit  him. 
Sometimes  I  would  be  alone,  but  most  of  the  time^^^^^^Bwoulc 
joint  us. 

Q     Was  it  your  impression  that  Ambassador  Tambs  was 
communicating  with  Elliott  Abrams  with  regard  to  his  conduct 
down  there? 

A     I  don't  know  that. 

Q     You  don' t  know? 

A     I  would  imagine,  but  I  don't  know  that  for  sure. 

Q     Did  you  have  any  reason  to  think  that  Eliott 
Abrams  was  unaware  of  Mr.  Tamb's  conduct? 


704 


1 

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UNfflflO 


69 


A     No. 


Q     With  respect  to  Colonel  Steele,  did  you  deal  with 
Colonel  Steele? 

A     The  first  time  I  met  Colonel  Steele  was  with  the 
MIL  Group  commanderj 


I  then  saw  him  again  in  March,  at  the  time  we  had 
gone  down  there  and  were  trying  to  put  together  the  first  drop 
to  the  forces  in  the  south. 

Q     In  March  of  ' 86? 

A     March  of  '86,  yes.   He  was  in  on  several  meetings 
Ihad  with  Chichi  Cotero  and  Felix  Rodriguez. 

Q     You  only  dealt  with  him  twice? 

A     Yes,  I  believe  that  I  was  only  ^"^^^^^H  ^^^n*^ 
three  times  or  four  times. 

Q     How  about  Mr.  Gadd?    Did  you  have  many  dealings 
with  him? 

A     I  had  a  couple  of  lunches  and  maybe  three  or  four 
times  we  had  lunch  together.   I  think  I  was  introduced  by 
phone  to  him  as  Mr.  East,  and  Colonel  North  had  aked  me  to  get 
in  contact  with  Mario  Calero,  and  to  encourage  Mario  Calero 
to  talk  to  Mr.  East  and  also  to  set  up  a  meeting  so  that  Mr. 
East  would  be  the  person  they  would  turn  to  when  flights 


705 


10 


W 


1 

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WVWJl 


70 


started  up  again,  he  would  be  the  contact  officer  for  moving 
the  goods,  and  I  also  mentioned  it  to  the  NAHO  people  that  he 
would  probably  be  a  good  person  to  use.   Subsequently,  I 
learned  his  name  was  Gadd. 

Q     And  Robert  Dutton,  dod  you  deal  with  him? 

A     Never  met  him. 

Q     Never  met  him? 

A     I  don't  believe  so,  no.   I  don't  believe  I  ever  met 
him. 

Q     How  about  Max  Gomez? 

A     I  had  met  Max  initially  in  March  of  1985.   I  was 
introduced  to  him  as  someone  who  could  do  a  number  of  good 
things  down  south.   I  belive  that  it  was  at  that  time  he  was 
trying  to  decide  whether  to  go  to  work  with  the  FDN  or  go  to 
work  in  Salvador,  and  we  discussed  some  of  the  thing  that  he 
would  be  able  to  do  for  the  FDN^^^^^^^Hand  try  to 
up  various  programs  that  were  necessary. 

I  talked  to  Colonel  North  about  him,  and  he  said 
yes,  but  he  thought  he  was  going  to  Salvador.   I  then  met  him 
in  March  when  I  was  down  there,  and  then  again  in  April^^^^H 


Q     Were  you  aware  of  any  conflict  between  Max  and  with 
the  Secord  operation  with  respect  to  the  use  of  planes  and 
the  distribution  of  t^c^s^e^ planes ,  those  assets  to  the  CIA  in 
the  future? 


706 


11 


CO 


Ul^^fiED 


71 


A     No.   The  biggest  conflict  that  I  knew  was,  one, 
there  was  a  meeting  in  August  of  1986. 

Q  Exactly. 

A     When  Colonel  North  was  out  of  town,  but  I  believe 
his  deputy,  Robert  Earl   sat  in  on  it.   Colonel  North  was 
upset  at  the  meeting,  was  upset  about  the  meeting  because  he 
felt  that  — 

Q     Is  that  a  meeting  with  Donald  Gregg? 

A     Yes.   At  the  time,  I  only  knew  there  was  a  meeting 
that  took  place  st   the  White  House,  where  they  had  a  variety 
of  representatives  —  I  believe  some  from  the  Agency,  from  the 
NSC,  the  Vice  President's  office. 

Q     Let  me  back  up.   Were  you  aware  there  were  two 
meetings  —  one  on  August  8  between  Donald  Gregg,  Felix, 
Robert  Earl,  and  then  one  on  August  12,  with  representatives 
the  Ambassador  Corps,  Colonel  Steele,  and  others? 

A     I  knew  that  there  was  at  least  one,  if  not  two 
meetings  had  taken  place,  so  I  wasn't  familiar  with  the  dates. 
I  do  know  that  at  least  one  of  them  there  were  representatives 
from  State  and  the  Agency  that  were  there,  and  Colonel  North 
was  upset.   He  felt  that  Felix  had  been  maligning  the  effort, 
and  also  there  were  I  believe  conversations  that  took  place 
about  what  is  going  to  happen  once  the  military  funding  was 
released  by  Congress. 

Q     Did  Colonel  North  relay  to  you  that  there  was  a 


707 


12 


DH«UitfD 


72 


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disagreement  as  to  who  owned  the  assets  and  whether  or  not 
they  should  be  given  to  the  CIA  or  sold  to  the  CIA? 
A     No,  that  did  not  come  up. 

Q  Were  you  aware  that  Colonel  North  had  a  meeting 
with  Dutton  and  Felix  Rodriguez  in  June  of  '86  in  which  he 
castigated  allegedly  Felix  Rodriguez? 

A     I  knew  that  there  was  a  meeting  when  Colonel  North 
had  flown  down  ^°^|^H|  and  met  with  Felix  and  met  with 
Colonel  Steele,  and  I  believe^^^^^Waccompanied  him 
on  that  meeting,  and  they  had  talked  about  the  assets  and  what 
was  going  on.   I  knew  that  there  were  always  problems  with  it. 
There  were  concerns  of  mismanagement,  there  were  concerns  of 
funds  not  getting  through  on  time.   There  were  concerns  of 
the  quality  of  equipment  and  the  lack  of  coordination. 

Q     Did  you  discuss  with  Colonel  North  the  possibility 
that  the  contras  were  being  ripped  off,  defrauded  by  Secord 
and  other  people  working  down  there  with  Secord? 

A     In  March  of  1986  I  made  a  memo  to  Colonel  North  in 
which  I  discussed  some  concerns  that  people  had  about  the 
possibility  that  General  Secord  was  making  large  profits  out 

of  this. 

Q     This  is  concerns  of  who? 

A     Concerns  on  the  street  that  I  had  heard  from  a 
variety  of  sources,  and  also  at  one  time,  I  am  not  sure  it  was 
at  this  point  or  another  point,  Adolpho  Calero  had  made 


im  mm. 


708 


13 


f>0 


I 

2 

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73 

mention  of  it,  and  at  this  time  in  the  memo,  I  put  in  Tom 
Clines  and  several  others. 

Q     Did  you  see  any  evidence  to  indicate  that  Secord 
was  doing  such  a  thing? 

A     Was  making  money  off  it?  No. 

Q     Have  you  ever  seen  such  efforts? 

A     No. 

Q     Have  you  ever  seen  any  direct  involvement  by  Tom 
Clines  in  any  of  these  activities,  or  Secord  or  his  other 
people? 

A     No.   I  just  knew  that  he  was  involved. 

Q     Do  you  know  if  the  name  Clines  and  the  defrauding 
of  the  contras  came  up  in  the  context  of  the  meeting  with 
Donald  Gregg  in  August  of  '86? 

A     I  don't  know  that  for  a  fact.   I  heard  a  rumor  that 
there  was  some  concern  about  money  being  ripped  off.   I  know 
Felix  Rodriguez  had  a  concern  that  people  were  making  money 
off  of  this  effort. 

Q     Did  Colonel  North  give  you  his  assessment  of  whethe 
such  things  were  happening,  in  his  opinion? 

A     I  believe  it  was  in  that  March  meeting,  where  I 
talked  to  Colonel  North  about  it,  emd  he  said  "I  don't  believe 
that  Secord  is  making  money  off  of  this." 

I  believe  on  one  other  occasions,  when  I  talked, 
he  talked  about  Secord  using  his  own  money  to  set  up  a  variety 


709 


14 


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to 

II 

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WKSiB 


74 


of  proprietaries  that  were  being  used.   At  that  same  meeting 
in  March  I  brought  up  Peter  Maas'  book,  where  the  list  of 


concern  eas  voiced  byl 
It  may  not  have  been  that  meeting,  it  may  have  been  a 
subsequent  meeting,  but  also  the  fact  that  there  were 
allegations  that  monies  were  being  )^de  and  that  the  contras 
were  being  ripped  off. 

Let  me  just  add  that  also  in  that  same  discussion 
I  talked  about  another  group  who  were  saying  that  they  were 
working  for  Secord  and  North,  but  in  essence  had  their  own 
arms  operation  going,  and  they  subsequently  became  known  as 
the  Supermarket  Contras,  but  were  using  as  a  cover,  from  what 
I  had  heard,  Secord  and  North's  names. 

Q     Do  you  know  who  those  people  were? 
A     They  were  connected  with  Rob  Martin.   David  Duncan 
was  one  of  them.   There  is  another  name  --  Alberto  Cappo,  and 

Patrice  Genty. 

Q     You  have  testified  previously  to  handling  money 

on  behalf  of  North? 

A     Right. 

Q     TO  give  to  other  people,  and  you  saw  on  numerous 
occasions  North  in  the  posession  of  money  in  his  vault? 

A     Right. 

Q     In  the  safe: 


ssion  of  money  in  his  vauJ 


710 


15 


1 

2 

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Right. 


iiiffiFe 


75 


Q     Let  me  start  at  the  top  here.   As  to  yourself, 
besides  the  money  you  were  paid  as  salary  for  your  acts  here, 
did  you  ever  perosnally  profit  in  any  way,  shape  or  form,  from 
your  activities  down  there? 

A     While  I  was  working  for  Adolpho  Caler'^,  I  made 
$2500  a  month,  and  whatever  my  travel  expenses  were,  and  I 
provided  an  accounting  to  Adolpho  Calero  --  and  I  would  also 
provide  a  copy  of  that  accounting,  I  would  also  usually  provide 
a  copy  of  the  accounting  to  Oliver  North. 

When  I  would  take  trips  to  New  York  to  get  the 
funds,  I  was  paid  usually  out  of  North's  safe  for  whatever  my 
expenses  were. 

When  I  worked  for  NAHO,  I  was  provided  a  contract 
which  said  the  maximum  I  could  get  would  be  $3650  a  month. 
I  took  $3350,  the  other  $500  I  used  to  help  cover  expenses, 
phone  calls,  things  like  that. 

On  one  occasion,  on  my  wedding,  I  was  given  a 
thousand  dollars  and  that  probeibly  came  from  those  funds.   So 
that  would  be  my  only  profit  perhaps. 

Q     Who  gave  it  to  you? 

A     Oliver  North. 


yNCLASSiFIED 


Q     Did  you  understand  that  that  was  a  gift? 
A     Yes,  it  was  in  essence  I  guess  you  could  say,  a 
bonus  or  whatever,  for  the  work  that  I  was  doing,  but  I  would 


711 


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ijtiffliD 


76 


like  to  add  right  now  that  I  am  in  debt  and  have  no  job,  so 
I  don't  think  I  profited  from  it. 

Q     Do  you  have  any  knowledge  — 

A     And  my  wife  will  certainly  admit  that  I  didn't 

profit  for  it. 

Q     Do  you  have  any  knowledge  about  Colonel  North 
making  any  profit  or  taking  any  money  from  any  of  these  funds 
that  he  was  in  posseion  of  or  distributing  to  anybody? 

A     I  had  heard  on  one  occasion  from  one  source  who  I 
did  not  always  find  reliable  — 

Q     Who  is  that?  

A  fellow  by  the  name  of^^^^^^H  I  brought 
his  name  up  before.   I  did  not  always  think  his  information 
was  reliable.   I  would  find  it  very  difficult  to  believe  that 
Oliver  North  profited  from  it. 

AS  one  person  said,  if  Oliver  North  profited  from 
it  it  just  Shows  there  is  no  Santa  Claus. 

Q     You  have  no  evidence  that  indicates  that? 

A     none  whatsoever. 

Q     And  you  have  seen  nothing  that  indicates  that? 

A     I  had  heard  rumors  that  — 

Q     FromI 

A      FromI 

No,  I  have  no  evidence. 

And  when  did^^^^jtell  you  this  rumor? 


712 


17 


wmmii 


77 


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A     The  spring  of  '86,  I  believe. 

Q     And  how  much  under  his  rumor? 

A     He  didn't  say.   He  didn't  give  any  costs. 
Where  is^^^^^^^^Hnow? 

A     I  don't  know.   Maybe  Florida. 

Q     Do  you  have  any  knowledge,  have  you  seen  any 
evidence  or  do  you  know  of  any  evidence  indicating  that 

[made  any  profit  or  took  any  money  in  relationship  to 
these  activities? 

A     No,  I  have  no  evidence  and  I  would  believe,  as 
with  Oliver  North  that  neither  one  of  them  made  any  money  out 
of  this. 

Q     How  about  Ambassador  Tambs? 

A     I  have  no  evidence  and  I  again  would  believe  that 
they  would  not  make  money  out  of  this.   They  were  U.S. 
Government  employees  who  were  doing  what  they  thought  was 
right. 

Q     How  about  Colonel  Steele? 

A     Again,  I  have  no  evidence. 

0     How  about  Adolfo  Calero? 

A     Again,  there  was  quite  a  bit  of  speculation,  rumor, 
that  he  or  his  brother,  Mario,  were  making  money,  but  I  have 
no  evidence. 

Q     How  about  General  Secord? 

A     Again,  rumors  ran  rife,  and  there  was  speculation 


l!N£L4Mlfn 


713 


18 


IINIM^HD 


78 


Co 


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by  a  number  of  people  that  he  was  making  money  off  of  this. 
They  were  Nicaraguans  who  brought  this  up  to  my  attention. 
There  were  Americans  that  brought  this  up  to  my  attention,  but 
I  have  no  evidence  nor  no  knowledge  that  he  was  making  money 
off  it. 

Q     Now,  with  respect  to  legal  opinions,  early  on  I 
believe  you  testified  as  early  as  ' 85  you  and  Colonel  North 
and  perhaps  Johnathan  Miller,  joked  intermittently  about  who 
would  go  to  jail  first? 

A     Right. 

Q     At  that  point,  or  prior  to  that  point,  had  you 
received  or  sought  any  legal  advance  with  regard  to  your 
conduct  up  to  that  point? 

A  ■    I  did  when  I  set  up  IDEA. 

Q     When  was  that? 

A     That  was  in  January  of  1985,  and  the  fact  was  if 
I  were  to  have  done  things  through  IDEA,  I  was  concernedabout 
the  Foreign  Agents  Registration  Act.   Also  because  I  was  being 
paid  by  Adolfo  Calero  that  I  was  possibly  in  violation  of  that 
but  it  was  also  felt  that  I  shouldn't  register  as  a  foreign 
agent,  because  obviously,  that  would  tip  off  the  press  and 
others,  so  the  decision  was  made  that  I  would  not  file. 

(Off  the  record  discussion) 

MR.  LEON:   Back  on  the  record. 

MR.  GREENBAUM:   For  the  purposes  of  the  record, 


714 


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mmm 


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79 


we  just  want  to  confirm  our  discussion  off  the  record  that 
while  Mr.  Owen  is  prepared  to  be  cooperative,  we  do  not  want 
to  waive  any  attorney-client  privilege  and  we  respectfully 
request  that  any  questions  in  that  area  be  delayed  until  we 
have  time  to  talk  and  consider  it  further. 
BY  MR.  LEON: 

Q     Fine. 

Let  me  ask  you  this,  Mr.  Owen  -- 

MR.  GREENBAUM:   Other  than  what  he  has  already  told 
you. 

BY  MR.  LEON: 

Q      Right. 

Did  Oliver  North  ever  present  you  with  any  copy  of 
any  legal  opinion  that  he  received  with  respect  to  what  he 
was  doing  on  this  program  at  any  point  in  time? 

A     No.   Although  I  had  heard  that  the  lOB,  the 
Intelligence  Oversight  Board,  had  provided  him  with  a  memo 
saying  that  what  he  was  doing  probably  under  the  Boland 
amendment  was  legal,  not  illegal. 

Q     Did  he  mention  the  name  of  who  wrote  it? 

A     I  know  Bret  Sciaroni,  who  was  the  counsel. 

Q     Were  you  familiar  with  any  private  attorneys  who 
Mr.  North  saught  advice  from  with  regard  to  these  areas? 

A     A  conversation  came  up  —  and  I  don't  know  when  it 
was  —  that  they  had  run  this  by  a  private  attorney  and  that 


!lh»*l  AMlcirn 


715 


20 


end  ml 
md    f Is 


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mmMi 


80 


he  had  found  it  was  not  illegal. 

Q     Did  he  say  the  name  of  the  private  attorney? 

A     It  was  probably  Tom  Green. 

Q     Do  you  know  when  that  would  have  teen  that  he  ran 
it  by  him  approximately? 


No,  Id'-  not  know  when  it  was. 

Could  It  have  been  as  early  as  1985? 

Yes. 

If  knew  it  right  from  the  outset  of  your  activities 

Right. 

Did  you  have  any  role  in  the  preparation  of  a 
chronology  of  events  in  the  fall  of  1986? 
A      No. 

Q     November  of  ' 86? 
A     No. 
Q     Has  Oliver  North  asked  you  to  assist  him  in  the 

destruction  of  documents? 
A     No. 
Q     At  the  present  time? 

A     NO.   I  will  say  here  that  it  has  never  really  been 
asked,  but  I  want  to  put  it  on  the  record  that  there  were 
documents  as  things  went  along,  taht  he  did  destroy. 

Q     At  whose  direction? 

A     At  my  own. 

Q     Why  did  you  destroy  them? 

A     I  didn't  want  to  leave  them  hanging  around. 


miASSKO 


716 


md  1 
fls  ml 


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m&m.\i 


81 


Q    Security? 

A    That,  and  then  when  it  was  felt  that  investigations 
were  going  to  take  place,  I  obviously  knew  there  were  some 
that  I  may  have  just  thrown  out,  and  also  when  I  moved,  there 
were  just  a  number  of  papers  that  I  had  lying  around  that 
I  threw  out,  out  as  you  have  with  the  documents  that  I 
provided  you,  obviously  I  did  keep  some  and  chose  not  to  throw 
them  out,  so  that  there  may  have  been  some  documents  that 
I  had  provided  for  Colonel  North  that  are  not  on  record  that 
he  either  kept  or  that  I  kept. 

Q    I  have  an  awful  lot  of  other  questions,  but  in 
deference  to  my  Senate  colleague,  I  think  I  will  just  turn  it 
over  to  him  right  now  and  we  will  discuss  them  at  another 
time,  if  we  have  a  further  deposition  or  another  session. 
BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  were  there  any  particular  documents  you 
can  recall  that  you  went  out  of  your  way  to  make  sure  were 
destroyed? 

A    There  may  have  been  some  lists  or  copies  of  lists 
of  arms,  things  like  that.   I  don't  think  there  were  any 
memos  to  Oliver.   Actually,  when  I  moved,  as  I  said,  I 
threw  a  number  of  things  out.   Included  in  that  was  the 
memo  that  we  talked  about  proprietaries ,  and  a  memo  from  a 
lawyer  which  was  used  or  which  gave  advice  as  to  how  to 
set  up  laundering  operations,  not  laundering  operations,  but 


717 


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.1 


82 

I  should  say  movement  of  funds  overseas. 

Q    And  those  you  say  were  thrown  out  just  in  the  process 
of  a  move  as  opposed  to  specifically  trying  to  destroy  them? 

A  No.  I  was  just  going  through  things,  and  what  I 
felt  I  needed  or  wanted  to  keep  around,  and  I  think  it  was 
about  the  time  that  the  investigation  was  breaking  because 
we  moved  about  that  time,  so  it  may  have  been  just  before. 
I  don't  remember  the  time  exactly. 

Q    When  this  whole  controversy  that  we  are  all  here 
about  first  arose,  was  there  ever  occasion  when  because  of 
the  pendency  of  this  controvery,  you  went  through  your 
documents  and  pulled  out  certain  ones  and  destroyed  them? 

A    That  was  about  the  time  that  I  moved,  so  I  must  have 
gone  through  and  gone  through  and  just  said  well,  there  is  no 
reason  to  have  this.   Maybe  there  were  names  on  it  that  I  didn' 
want  if  I  were  ever  subpoenaed  or  documents  subpoenaed  I  didn't 
want  on  the  documents  or  lists  of  munitions  and  things  like 
that,  but  I  can't  —  to  recreate  them,  the  specific  ones  was 
the  proprietary,  the  other  one  from  the  lawyer  regarding  the 
setting  up  of  overseas  bank  accounts. 
BY  MR.  LEON: 

Q    Do  you  know  the  lawyer's  name? 

A    Yes,  his  name  is  Bill  Kasselman.   He  is  a  lawyer  in 
town.   He  probably  has  a  copy. 


UMiV 


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mmm 


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BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

Q    Did  any  of  the  documents  that  you  either  destroyed 
or  got  rid  of  contain  information  concerning  the  involvement 
of  U.S.  Government  officials  in  this  operation  or  various 
operations? 

A    No,  because  by  and  large,  the  only  U.S.  Government 
official  I  had  dealings  with  were  Colonel  North  and  then,  when 
I  was  with  NHAO. 

Q    Tell  us  about  how  it  came  about  that  you  delivered 
these  encryption  devices  to  Central  America,  and  who  you 
delivered  them  to? 

A    I  only  delivered  one,  and  that  was  to 

I  and  Colonel  North  asked  me  to  come  over  and 
take  it  down  for  him,  plus  with  the  month's  encryption. 
There  was  usually  a  cannister,  this  was  a  cannister  for  each 
one  that  would  have  each  day  the  code  would  change,  and  I  took 
that  down  for  the  month. 

I  believe  it  was  through  the  month  of  April.   I  think 
that  possibly  came  out  of  the  botched  flight  at  the  end  of 
March.   I  told  Colonel  North  in  a  memo  that  he  should  set  up 
secure  communications  like  betwee 

land  Washington,  for  the  private  aid  networ 

Q    And  there  was  just  the  one  encryption  device  that 
you  took  down? 

A    Yes,  that  was  the  only  one.   I  knew  that  Gadd  had 
one,  and  certainly  that  Colonel  North  had  one,  and  that  Secord 


719 


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\!STO^C 


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had  one.   I  don't  know  where  the  others  went,  and  I  don't  know 
who  -- 

Q    You  didn't  deliver  it  to  anybody  inl 

A    No.   They  did  not  have  one  at  the  time.   I  think 
I  subsequently  learned  that  Chi  Chi  Contero  took  one  down  or 
had  access  to  one. 

Q    Were  these  KL-4  3s? 

A    TRWs.   I  didn't  know  the  terminology.   I  guess  that  i 
what  they  were. 

Q    Because  of  all  of  the  work  that^^^^^^^^^^^ftiad  to 
do  down  south,  didn't  you  and  others  sometimes  refer  to  him 
as  the  Coramandante  of  the  South? 

A    No,  I  never  did. 

Q    Did  you  hear  other  people  call  him  that? 

A    No,  not  really. 

Q    I  thought  you  told  us  that  last  time  that  he  was 
called  the  Commandante  of  the  South? 

A    No,  I  don't  think.   I  don't  remember  that.   You  can 
go  back  and  check  the  notes,  but  I  don't  remember  that. 

Q    Since  this  controversy  erupted,  have  you  talked  with 
Oliver  North  about  any  of  the  facts  that  you  have  testified 
to  here  today? 

A    No.   I  have  met  with  him  on  two  occasions.   Each 
time,  he  had  his  lawyer  and  I  had  my  lawyer.   I  have  talked 
to  him  on  the  phone  a  couple  of  times,  but  each  time  it  was  jus 


720 


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UNSk&^[D 


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for  personal  reasons,  telling  him  my  wife  was  pregnant  and 
other  things,  but  both  at  his  urging  and  my  urging,  I  mean, 
and  at  our  lawyers'  urging,  certainly  we  did  not  want  to  discus 
anything  specific. 

I  talked  to  him  on  the  day  that  all  of  this 
erupted,  and  that  was  the  time  when  he  said,  well,  you  know 
that  I  would  never  have  done  anything  that  would  not  been 
in  essence  ordered  or  sanctioned.   It  was  his  lawyer  who  -- 
I  talked  to  his  lawyer  just  on  those  occasions. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  ever  tell  you  that  he  had 
personally  met  with  the  President  to  discuss  any  of  the 
contra  operations  he  was  involved  with? 

A    He  would  constantly  refer  to  going  across  the  street, 
or  when  I  was  in  there,  he  would  have  meetings  that  he  would 
have  to  go  to  across  the  street,  to  go  over  things  both 
when  Admiral  Poindexter  and  Mr.  McFarlane  were  the 
National  Security  Advisers,  and  those  comments  came  up, 
but  specifically  meeting  with  the  President,  no,  he  never  said 
that  explicitly  to  me. 

Q    Did  he  ever  imply  to  you  that  he  had  met  with  the 
President  and  discussed  with  him  any  of  these  operations? 

A    After  the  shootdown  of  the  C-123,  I  talked  with  him 
about  my  concern  for  Buzz  Sawyer  and  his  family,  and  at  that 
time,  he  recommended,  well,  why  don't  you  write  a  memo  on  it 
to  me,  and  just  talk  a  little  bit  about  Buzz. 


721 


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I  said  what  are  you  going  to  do  with  it.   He  said, 
"I  just  might  show  it  to  the  President." 

Q    For  what  purpose? 

A    Probably  to  show  the  President  what  a  great  American 
Buzz  Sawyer  was. 

Q    Is  this  the  memorandum  that  you  would  have  prepared 
understanding  this  was  specifically  something  that  the 
President  might  see? 

A    Right,  but  I  will  add  that  due  to  time  constraints 
and  other  things  that  the  memorandvim  never  got  to,  I  don't 
believe  I  ever  gave  it  to  Colonel  North. 

Q    Do  you  still  have  a  copy  of  it? 

A    No. 

Q    Do  you  know  what  happened  to  it? 

A    It  was  on  a  computer  disc  and  the  computer  disc  was 
erased  by  one  of  the  people  in  the  office  by  mistake. 

Q    Did  the  proposed  memorandum  discuss  anything 
beyond  Buzz  Sawyer  as  a  person? 

A    No. 

Q    For  example,  the  types  of  operations  he  was  working 
on? 

A    No,  it  was  just  a  reflection  on  him  as  an 
individual,  and  my  friendship  with  him. 

Q    You  were  asked  some  questions  about  any 
discussions,  anything  Colonel  North  said  aibout  the  President 


IINfiliSSIFIFn 


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meeting  with  private  fundraisers. 

I  believe  you  said  that  you  had  never  discussed 
that  specific  issue  with  Colonel  North.   Did  you  ever  discuss 
presidential  fundraising  with  anyone  else? 

A    I  knew  that  there  was  an  effort  underway  to  raise 
funds,  and  that  they  were  using  the  White  House  as  a  means  to 
show  that  they  were  sanctioned  by  the  Administration. 

I  also  knew  that  when  they  had  the  Nicaraguan 
Refugee  Fund  Dinner  in  April  of  1985,  that  the  reason  the 
President  came  and  spoke  was  because  of  Oliver  North,  or  it 
seemed  it  was  at  the  urging  of  Oliver  North,  and  that  that 
was  an  effort  to  raise  funds  for  refugees,  and  I  knew  that  the 
National  Endowment  for  Democracy,  Spitz  Channell,  would  hold 
certain  briefings  for  people  when  they  would  come  into  town 
and  they  would  be  briefed  over  at  the  White  House  and  occasion-j 
ally  some  of  them  would  then  go  into  the  President. 

Q    This  was  for  fundraising? 

A    Fundraising. 

Q    Do  you  know  whether  or  not  —  who  told  you  these 
things?  Who  described  these  fundraising  efforts  to  you? 

A    I  don't  want  to  use  the  word  network,  but  the 
group  of  people  who  were  involved  in  it  was  fairly  limited. 


and  I  knew  them. 

Q    Who  was  it? 

A    I  usually  knew  what  was  going  on.   I  guess  I  was 


ONCLASSIFIED 


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'mMii 


albe  to  just  sort  of  through  listening  learn  a  lot  of  things 
that  had  happened. 

I  had  known  Frank  Gomez  and  Richard  Miller.   I  was 
first  introduced  to  them  by  Colonel  North,  I  believe,  in  the 
fall  of  1984,  and  then  I  had  heard  rumors  about  some  meetings 
that  took  place  in  March  of  1984  between  Adolfo  Calero  and 
Spitz  Channell. 

I  knew  that  Dcm  Conrad  and  Channell  were  involved 
in  the  refugee  fund  dinner,  at  least  Dan  Conrad  was,  and  then 
during  the  summer  of  1985,  one  of  the  people  who  was  helping 
me  a  little  bit  by  helping,  he  was  a  student  who  was  just  here 
for  the  summer,  and  I  had  sponsored  him  on  a  trip  down  to 
Central  America,  on  a  couple  of  trips  down  to  Central  America 
for  doing  refugee  reports. 

He  was  asked  by  Spitz  Channell 's  group  to  make 
phone  calls  to  people,  asking  them  to  attend  a -secret  White 
House  briefing  on  the  situation  in  Nicaragua,  where  they  would 
be  briefed  by  Administration  officials.   It  would  cost  them 
$10,000  to  show  up,  and  if  they  couldn't  come  and  they  wanted 
to  send  in  $5,000,  that  that  would  be  fine,  and  as  a  matter  of 
fact,  I  went  to  Colonel  North  and  brought  this  to  his  atten- 
tion. 

I  said,  "Look,  Colonel,  I  think  you  have  got  people 
saying  there  are  going  to  be  secret  briefings.   Although  you 
want  to  give  them  hype,  I  think  if  the  press  ever  got  hold  of 


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it,  it  would  be  a  disaster  to  the  effort." 

Q    Did  you  know  what  the  specific  purpose  of  the 
fundraising  was,  what  was  going  to  be  done  with  the  money? 

A    I  had  heard  that  it  was  a  combination  for  the 
advertisements,  television  advertisements  that  were  being 
undertaken,  and  also  for  a  PR  campaign. 

I  did  not  know  that  funds,  as  I  subsequently 
learned  in  the  newspapers,  that  funds  were  going  to  be  used 
to  purchase  arms. 

Q    You  didn't  know  that?   Nobody  told  you  that? 

A    No. 

Q    Nobody  implied  that? 

A    No.   There  may  not  be  any  correlation,  but  when 
I  was  in  Costa  Rica  in  December  198  5,  I  was  getting  ready  to 
leave ^^^^^^H came  out  to  the  airport,  asked  me  to  —  told 
me  he  had  gotten  a  call  from  Colonel  North  and  Colonel  North 
wanted  me  to  go^^^^^^^^^Hto  work  on  a  toy  project. 

I  subsequently  —  the  flight  for^^^^^^fhad 
already  left.   We  looked  into  chartering  a  flight,  for  me  to 
go  ^o^^^^^^^l  I^  would  have  been  prohibitively  expensive 
to  do  that.   1  didn't  have  the  cash,  and  there  wasn't  any  oth€ 
way  I  could  get  it,  so  I  called  North  and  we  talked  briefly 
over  the  phone,  and  then  we  decided  that  I